Federation/Empire fleet battle: Not smooth Imp sailing?

[TheDarkling]

That doesnt mean its hypoerbole just it isnt deployed on starships (a weapon that destroys everything in 800KM isnt always necessary) it cuold also mean the material was rare etc etc.

When this was raised over at sb.com it was noted that O'Brien said 90 Isotons of not 90 Isotons worth of, indicating that the small cannister couild have been holding 90 Isotons (in weight) of the explosion and tat advanced fields were being used to compress it.

This goes some way to accounting for the unusual strenght of the explosive and may figure in why these explosives arent seen more often (90 tons of a material is overkill and wastefull in war).

However I believe that even at 90 tons (and indication is that an Isoton < Metric ton) it was found that the explosive had a huge yield compared to most explosive materials.

So what do ya think of that then?

[Vendetta]

My theory: "The phasing cloak makes matter 'phased', thus permeable to photons and 'unphased' matter. It is still affected by gravity, chemical exchange and pressure."
My theory explains everything in far simpler terms than yours, thus it wins by Occam's razor. Your theory is not only ludicrous, but clearly a product of your furious backpedalling.

Chemical exchange, however, requires material interaction. In order to continue living, Ro and Geordi must have been interacting with matter, oxygen molecules were combining with the haemoglobin in their blood cells and being carried around to the cells. But they weren't interacting with matter like walls and well, anything else they tried to touch.
So to return to the original point that started this off, you can't assume that a nerve agent will work on an out of phase being, because you don't know what criteria limits the range of interactions that being will undergo.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Since a Tholian Web works on an Artifial Gravity Field, and the warp drive is insainely slow and predictable compared to SW sensors, feds chances aginst impeail forces backed by 1 or more Interedicotr are still = to snow ball in hell. Remind me to cast more Ice spells next time I play Atack of the Trolls, just for irony value.

Now just how slow are we talking about, I can KE kill a sovriegn doing fancy warp tricks with a USED Y-Wing and an Astromech.

[Eleas]

Chemical exchange, however, requires material interaction. In order to continue living, Ro and Geordi must have been interacting with matter, oxygen molecules were combining with the haemoglobin in their blood cells and being carried around to the cells. But they weren't interacting with matter like walls and well, anything else they tried to touch.
So to return to the original point that started this off, you can't assume that a nerve agent will work on an out of phase being, because you don't know what criteria limits the range of interactions that being will undergo.

That, I must admit, is an intelligent point, and I thank you for a refreshing change from debating Shadow.

I will admit that I can't conclusively prove that nerve agents will work. However, any gas they came into contact with, they interacted with fully, so nerve agents would be expected to be no different. It could be because they interact weakly with particles, and that would explain a lot of phenomena, but not all.

Of course, the episode was totally ludicrous from a consistency perspective, so logic may be unapplicable here. Anyway, this is the best analysis I can perform at half past two in the morning.

[Eleas]

Update: They WERE interacting with matter. Not a lot, but there was definitely interaction going on.

[Ted C]

It wouldn't work forever, it wouldn't save them in a war, but it could leave an overconfident Imperial commander in severe disgrace...

I'm not at all sure where this thread has gone, since I've only read the first few posts, but I see one major flaw in the entire premise: it's a strategically useless tactic.

Where are space battles going to take place? Around planets that have strategic value. What can this tactic do to keep Imperial starships from obliterating any strategic target on a planet that they choose? Nothing at all.

Federation planets, even major political and industrial centers like Earth, don't have defenses capable of repelling an orbital bombardment from Imperial Star Destroyers. The Imperial fleet will hyperdrive into the system and deliver their surrender ultimatum. If the Federation refuses or Starfleet attacks, the Imperial fleet can decimate the planet in a few minutes (and we're not talking about a full BDZ, just the swift annihilation of every major city).

Even if the Federation could somehow reach a strategically important Imperial world to attack it, this tactic would still be useless. The Imperial fleet wouldn't bother to engage them, since the Federation doesn't have the firepower to penetrate Imperial planetary shields.

The Empire will always have the Federation by the throat, because the Empire has the ability and the will to attack Federation civilians with impunity.

[Howedar]

That doesnt mean its hypoerbole just it isnt deployed on starships (a weapon that destroys everything in 800KM isnt always necessary) it cuold also mean the material was rare etc etc.

When this was raised over at sb.com it was noted that O'Brien said 90 Isotons of not 90 Isotons worth of, indicating that the small cannister couild have been holding 90 Isotons (in weight) of the explosion and tat advanced fields were being used to compress it.

This goes some way to accounting for the unusual strenght of the explosive and may figure in why these explosives arent seen more often (90 tons of a material is overkill and wastefull in war).

However I believe that even at 90 tons (and indication is that an Isoton < Metric ton) it was found that the explosive had a huge yield compared to most explosive materials.

So what do ya think of that then?

By no means would you necessarily replace standard torpedos with them, but if they truly had the technology to build weapons with such yields, you can't convince me they wouldn't deploy them singly on at least a handful of ships. I reiterate, a handful of such explosives would have entirely destroyed the Chintoka defense platform field.

[TheDarkling]

Howedar: I never said they could replace standard torps with them (as far as I know this thread is old..)
However they could deploy the weapon against an ISD in one of the 1 ISD Vs Feds.
It does prove however that the feds can produce a weapon that may enable them to take out a few ISD's (after all remember the Feds have downgraded weapon once in the great TOS-TNG power purge).

It also proves the cries of "hyperbole" were unjusityfied.

I have had a thought on the rarity of this substance, it cant be that rare since the feds put alot into the bomb (way more than was necessary) so if it was rare no such overkill would have been used.

Prehaps the compress techno0logy means that Q toprs are better to build since they dont need that tech and they has engines (safer to store etc etc).

End result the federation has the ability to build a device with such a yield.

[Shadow]

Either of these options are unlikely. Geordi and Ro breathed. That means oxygen and nitrogen were absorbed by their lungs. They didn't dry out to husks, that means they absorbed oxygen and hydrogen from the air. They weren't frozen, which means they were in close to thermal equilibrium with the surrounding environment, meaning they absorbed heat as well. There is no reason why the process would be selective, as the phasing process is supposed to affect all matter.

So, your theory: "The phasing cloak makes people invisible and untouchable, but for some reason they can interact with oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, heat, pressure and gravity. No wait, they can't interact with gravity, they just stick to the floor by sheer force of will."
My theory: "The phasing cloak makes matter 'phased', thus permeable to photons and 'unphased' matter. It is still affected by gravity, chemical exchange and pressure."
My theory explains everything in far simpler terms than yours, thus it wins by Occam's razor. Your theory is not only ludicrous, but clearly a product of your furious backpedalling.

They would be affected by SIF fields if they interact with gravity. Why didn't they fall through the floor? Gravity isn't anything to stop them. It would pull them down. They can't make use of the chemical reaction without physcial contact with the atmosphere of the ship. Thyey cannot be affected by pressure withought phsical contact. The air would pass through them.

It clearly fits, you're just trying to avoid the issue. Gravity affects Ro and Geordi, that much is clear, as they would otherwise float around. The floor is coated with gravity plating - that is all that makes it different from the walls. The gravity explanation is all that makes sense. But you don't like what that implies, so you invent strange materials without a shred of proof.

They would have fallen through the floor.

1. There is NO evidence SIF and shields have anything in common.
2. There is NO evidence that shields are created by gravity. We only know there is some connection to gravity, if that.
3. There is NO evidence (as far as I know) that states tractor beams to be gravitic.
4. You can burn your TM.
5. You are incapable of presenting evidence and are a pathetic excuse for a debater.

SIF fields can block weapons fire when modified. How do tractor beams work if they are not gravitic?

There's nothing to suggest they can do that. They're just as likely to destroy the model in the process.

You are an idiot. This should be told to you more often, lest you forget the realities of the world.

To answer your moronic assertation, have you ever heard of Fermat's Theorem? It was devised in the 14th century by a french mathematician by the same name. We knew what it did, and still, it took us almost five hundred years to solve HOW it did it.

Having a working model != ability to reproduce said model.

The place where it was built would still be there. Do you have proof it is not?

I give up. There are only so many ways of telling someone that they are stupid. And Shadow is clearly beyond mere stupidity. He thinks that in the face of a Borg Cube over the Earth, swatting down a Federation fleet like flies, Starfleet Command or Section 51 will say "no, don't use the Phase Cloak, we're still pretty sure it'll work out in the end...", nonwithstanding the fact that anyone with an intact skull would see the obvious: that THERE IS NO FUCKING PHASE CLOAK TO USE!!!

It may not have been available at the moment. They did not produce it probably. They coulod if they wanted in the future.

Yes, I did. And, unlike you, I understood it. The interphase generator failed, but Ro and LaForge were phased. In a practical sense, yes, the generator failed. But technically, it did what it was supposed to do, only with the wrong target. This is supported by LaForge, who deduced what the Phase Cloak did to him by analyzing what it was trying to do. Surprisingly, what it tried to do and what it did was the same thing!

It phased them by was not working as it was designed. This could have altered the effect. The cloak did not sustain their phasind which is also questionable.

It is not unreasonable to assume that the two technologies are the same. A phase cloak is a phase cloak. This points to the tech being similar, and Geordi's dialogue confirms this by stating that the Romulans and the Klingons both independently work on the same technology. So again, there is no reason to follow your interpretation and every reason to follow mine.

The Romulans are known to steal technology. that is still Klingon and not Federation. I don't believe anyone mentioned the Romulan device in "The Pegasus." If they did not, why wouldn't they have said that this cloak was similiar to the Romulan one?

[SirNitram]

ST shields do not use gravity. If they did, a shielded ship would be completely invisible, and mass as much as a black hole. Weapons fire would curve around it, not impact on shields like shots fired at a wall.

Ridiculous nonsense...

The shield screen in Engineering measures graviton output. There's a link to a picture on DarkStar's page on Borg personal shields.

I don't give a shit if it measures deitygen output. They do not operate as gravitic shields would.

[Eleas]

Either of these options are unlikely. Geordi and Ro breathed. That means oxygen and nitrogen were absorbed by their lungs. They didn't dry out to husks, that means they absorbed oxygen and hydrogen from the air. They weren't frozen, which means they were in close to thermal equilibrium with the surrounding environment, meaning they absorbed heat as well. There is no reason why the process would be selective, as the phasing process is supposed to affect all matter.

So, your theory: "The phasing cloak makes people invisible and untouchable, but for some reason they can interact with oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, heat, pressure and gravity. No wait, they can't interact with gravity, they just stick to the floor by sheer force of will."
My theory: "The phasing cloak makes matter 'phased', thus permeable to photons and 'unphased' matter. It is still affected by gravity, chemical exchange and pressure."
My theory explains everything in far simpler terms than yours, thus it wins by Occam's razor. Your theory is not only ludicrous, but clearly a product of your furious backpedalling.

They would be affected by SIF fields if they interact with gravity. Why didn't they fall through the floor? Gravity isn't anything to stop them. It would pull them down.

What you're doing is trying to poke holes in my theory. That's not how it works, Shadow. You must compose a better theory with better predictive capabilities. I simply note they can't pass through the floor, and that it's the same in turbolifts. The only significant oddity about the floors and the turbolifts is that they are clad in gravity plating.

My theory, then, is that the grav plating not only pulls them down, but stops them at the field's point of origin. My theory explains a lot. Yours don't.

They can't make use of the chemical reaction without physcial contact with the atmosphere of the ship. Thyey cannot be affected by pressure withought phsical contact. The air would pass through them.

But you forget the damning fact that they DID exhibit weak interaction and weak physical contact. Otherwise they wouldn't have felt anything when their hands passed through.

They would have fallen through the floor.

My theory, then, is that the grav plating not only pulls them down, but stops them at the field's point of origin. My theory explains a lot. Yours don't.

SIF fields can block weapons fire when modified.

So can a simple wall, you utter moron. Does that mean a wall is gravitic?

How do tractor beams work if they are not gravitic?

You tell me. You're the one who insisted it's gravitic. You make the claim, you supply the evidence. Those are the rules that you consistently fail to grasp.

The place where it was built would still be there. Do you have proof it is not?

Strong indications. The fact that they haven't produced any new models of the phase cloak even in their finest hour indicates they can't do it. Why they can't is not stated, but likely their research facility was disbanded after the Pegasus fiasco.

It may not have been available at the moment. They did not produce it probably. They coulod if they wanted in the future.

No proof = admission of defeat. Concession accepted on the above point. Thanks.

It phased them by was not working as it was designed. This could have altered the effect. The cloak did not sustain their phasind which is also questionable.

Could'a, would'a, should'a. You are just the master of handwaving, aren't you?

The cloak phased them. Since the generator wasn't active, how the hell would it sustain their phasing? If the cloaking device had continued to operate, the phase cloak would be continuous, and the cloak would have WORKED!

It is not unreasonable to assume that the two technologies are the same. A phase cloak is a phase cloak. This points to the tech being similar, and Geordi's dialogue confirms this by stating that the Romulans and the Klingons both independently work on the same technology. So again, there is no reason to follow your interpretation and every reason to follow mine.

The Romulans are known to steal technology. that is still Klingon and not Federation.

You can't just assume the Romulans are able to steal the most closely guarded secret of the Klingon Empire, you moron. For that, I require something... what was it called again? Oh yeah, "proof".

I don't believe anyone mentioned the Romulan device in "The Pegasus." If they did not, why wouldn't they have said that this cloak was similiar to the Romulan one?

Because they didn't know how the Romulan one operated? This is fucking ridiculous. You're basing your defense on the fact that no one made an off-the-cuff statement for no reason. Typical.

Thus far, Shadow, you've managed to exhibit successively dumber argument for each post. I know de-evolution isn't supposed to be possible, but still, I wonder what I would see if I could look out your monitor. Would it be scaled or just a big semisentient lump of go?

[beyond hope]

There are other ways the Borg "adapt," though. In "Dark Frontier,"
when facing Species 10026, the Borg encountered a modulating
phaser pulse that almost completely bypassed the Queen's ship
and cubes' shielding.

Did they alter frequencies to match the weapons? No. Instead, they
reconfigured their shields to absorb the blasts instead of trying to
"deflect" them (or whatever Borg shields ordinarily do). After doing
so, the Queen said, emphasis mine:

"Adapation complete. They are no longer a threat."

Okay, so we ask ourselves "how is this modulating phaser pulse different from any other time a phaser has been fired at the Borg?" A phaser is supposedly a "beam of nadions" which we know has a frequency since phaser beams can be frequency-matched to shoot through shields. So, if the above is true and they didn't adjust to the frequency, what did they "adapt" to? The only other thing you could "modulate" would be the *intensity* of the beam. This seems like a peculiar vulnerability.

[Andrew Joshua Talon]

Oh wait, yes. It was how the Federation might find a way to repel an Imperial invasion, or at least slow them down enough to find a diplomatic solution. In that case, I have only one word for this post: Endgame Tech.

Deployable Armour: This armour is deployed onto the hull of the starship utilizing it, and as demonstrated in "Endgame Part 2" it took the combined force of a Borg fleet with barely a scratch until the Borg concentrated their fire onto a single section of the armour, and then it took their entire fleet (right there) to break it down. The armour proved just how strong it was, and against Imperial weaponry I think that Trek ships would be able to take the punishment far longer than they would otherwise.


Transphasic Torpedos: These impressive weapons were used against the Borg by Voyager and completely destroyed Borg cubes with only one or two shots each. Now yes, they probably had some form of frequency enhancement to them but they also had to have a HUGE amount of power behind them to produce the results on the Borg fleet. As Wong stated, Fed torps use only half their energy for their detonation, and the half energy the transphasics have probably have enough umph to blast through Imperial starships.

Of course, this might not be the case at all, but hey, it's something we Trekkies hold onto in order to try and level the playing feild.

[Ender]

1) Don't bump old shit.

Oh wait, yes. It was how the Federation might find a way to repel an Imperial invasion,

HA!

or at least slow them down enough to find a diplomatic solution.

That statement is so blindingly stupid, it is going in my sig.

In that case, I have only one word for this post: Endgame Tech.

Given the content of you other posts, I suppose the fact that you cannot count shouldn't shock me, but still.

that is 2 words dumbass

Deployable Armour: This armour is deployed onto the hull of the starship utilizing it, and as demonstrated in "Endgame Part 2" it took the combined force of a Borg fleet with barely a scratch until the Borg concentrated their fire onto a single section of the armour, and then it took their entire fleet (right there) to break it down. The armour proved just how strong it was, and against Imperial weaponry I think that Trek ships would be able to take the punishment far longer than they would otherwise.

1) RTFW. There is already a bit on this.
2) You apparently do not understand the massive differences in firepower. High end calcs for the Borg weapons put them at hundreds of MT. LOW end wars calcs put HTLs at 6.25 Teratons. Middle to High calcs place them from Peta to Yotta. That ship is still gone in a shot

Transphasic Torpedos: These impressive weapons were used against the Borg by Voyager and completely destroyed Borg cubes with only one or two shots each. Now yes, they probably had some form of frequency enhancement to them but they also had to have a HUGE amount of power behind them to produce the results on the Borg fleet. As Wong stated, Fed torps use only half their energy for their detonation, and the half energy the transphasics have probably have enough umph to blast through Imperial starships.

1) As wong ALSO stated (which you would know if you had read the website), the TTs appear to be chain reaction instead of brute force.
2) Apparently you have ZERO concept of how powerful the shielding and armor on Wars ships is. With their shielding and mass the Borg need a couple GT to go up like that. Wars shielding is TT.
Giga = _x10^9
Tera = _x10^12

Oh wait, you can't count can you? my bad.
Then you have the armor which, neutronium impregnated or not, is still thick, dense, and automatically disperses energy on it's own.

Of course, this might not be the case at all, but hey, it's something we Trekkies hold onto in order to try and level the playing feild.

No, most of them have long since given up. There is no proof whatsoever that the Fed was able to put these technologies into widespread use. Actually, since we don't see any auto-ablative "batmobile" armor on the E-E in the Nemisis trailers during combat, when it would be in use, and we see that it was in dock in the trailer, AND as the star of the fleet it would be first in line for upgrades, That is pretty damning evidence AGAINST the use of Endgame tech.

I really like this. You know absolutly NOTHING about the capabilities of Wars, but continue to try to formulate arguments based on your ignorance to try and defeat them. Let's review, shall we?

Acccel: Thousands of Gs beats out the hundreds of Gs Wars wins
Range: In normal space where the battles will be fought? Wars. In warp where the battles will never occur because Wars doesn't travel at warp? Trek. Wars wins.
Shielding: Covered above. Wars wins
Armor: The armor thickness on the Venture class War Galaxy is 20-30 cm. The armor thickness on the ISD is a meter or so. Plus Quadantium steel has duranium beat all hollow. Wars wins
Weapons - Energy: A LIGHT weapon in Wars is 50 GT. Canon based phaser numbers place a type 12 phaser at 245 KT, and calcs with assumptions in the low MT area. Wars wins
Weapons - Missile: Calcs for Photons range from 500 KT - 50 MT, QTs double that. Starfighter grade missiles in Wars are 191 MT, Captial ship missiles 250 GT. Wars wins
FTL: Thousands of C vs Millions of C. Wars wins.
Fleet size: 8000-12000 (plus tac fighters and shuttles) vs 4.6 million-32 million (plus fighters, shuttles, and logistics support). Wars wins
Industrial Capacity: 40 ships a year vs 3.5 weeks for an ISD. Wars wins.
Ground troops: Wars wins since Trek doesn't have dedicated ground forces.
Destructive force: Ignoring the superweapons, Wars can melt the surface of a planet in 15 minutes with a single ship, while it takes fleets hours in Trek to do that. Wars wins
Intellegence agencies:Section 31 vs the Inquisitorium. I'm certain Tremayne will see to it it takes S31 a REALLY long and painful time to die. Plus you then have 3 other branches of intellegence on top of that. Wars wins.
Combat experience: The Wars galaxy is now it it's 3rd straight generation of war. The Feddies only have the Dominion war to go by. Wars wins.

Tell me if you come up with any other military aspects I can crush you on.

[Knife]

Yeah, what he said.

[Ender]

Shit, messed up my math, Trek doesn't even have a range advantage in Warp. Torps there have 8 million k, the 8 AU of TL wouold be 1152 billion k.

My bad.

And can a Mod edit my last post to underline/bolden.italicize the "who wins" bits?

[Eleas]

Oh wait, yes. It was how the Federation might find a way to repel an Imperial invasion, or at least slow them down enough to find a diplomatic solution. In that case, I have only one word for this post: Endgame Tech.

Deployable Armour: This armour is deployed onto the hull of the starship utilizing it, and as demonstrated in "Endgame Part 2" it took the combined force of a Borg fleet with barely a scratch until the Borg concentrated their fire onto a single section of the armour, and then it took their entire fleet (right there) to break it down. The armour proved just how strong it was, and against Imperial weaponry I think that Trek ships would be able to take the punishment far longer than they would otherwise.

The problem here is that Trek beam weaponry seems pathetically weak when considering the size of the cubes. Multiple hits from a Borg cutting beam failed to disable the USS Defiant. Also, Trek beams seem materiel dependent; they're weaker against heavy armor. All taken together, the strength of the "Batmobile Armor" seems to be tailored against the weaknesses of Trek weaponry.

So, all in all, even against normal Trek armor, effective phaser output seems to drop to a few terawatts. A heavy turbolaser would still deliver 3E22 watts (30,000 exawatts, in other words). Even considering its 1/15th of a second dwell time, that's a lot; equivalent to some ten billion times as much power as a single phaser beam. Good luck.

Transphasic Torpedos: These impressive weapons were used against the Borg by Voyager and completely destroyed Borg cubes with only one or two shots each. Now yes, they probably had some form of frequency enhancement to them but they also had to have a HUGE amount of power behind them to produce the results on the Borg fleet. As Wong stated, Fed torps use only half their energy for their detonation, and the half energy the transphasics have probably have enough umph to blast through Imperial starships.

I don't think you understood what Mike meant. Any unfocused weapon in space will release its energy in all directions evenly. Thus, if a weapon strikes the cube and explodes on the surface or against the shield, it will only release half its total energy onto the target. The rest will be wasted into space.

The problem with the TP torps is not only that are they very rare and possibly unreproducible. Mainly, it is that they depend on frequency phasing. Trek shields all seem to share this odd frequency vulnerability. Thus, TP torps didn't batter down the Borg shields, they circumvented them.

They still seem to carry quite a charge, but I wouldn't peg it at above 100 MT. Borg cubes are rather hollow, and they do have a great big reactor inside that empty cavity.

[Cpt_Frank]

lmao! diplomatic solution.....
with the imperial diplomat being an Grand Admiral on a SSD....

[Ender]

and they do have a great big reactor inside that empty cavity.

No they don't they have a bunch of little ones. The last theory I saw on SB was something along the lines of a treknobabble energy pulse would cause all the plasma conduits to burst, acting in the same manner. The idea was that this was a good explanation because now it was garunteed that ISDs would go up instead of just damage.

[Andrew Joshua Talon]

Fine Ender, call my arguments what you want. I've done my homework. I know just what Imperial starships can do, I know the Federation's completely outmatched by current standards, but if the Feds have shown ANYTHING, it's that they can do the R&D to find the nessecary technological advancements to get back up on their feet and kick their enemy's ass all the way to hell. Anything else you say cannot knock down this simple fact.

Need proof?

The Borg? See First Contact, bud. They may have lost a lot of ships (again) but they had advanced enough to actually make their weapons do real damage to the cube.
Species 8472? Sure, they used Borg tech, but the Feds figured out how to use it.
The Dominion? The captured Jem'Hadar ships allowed the UFP to adapt their sheilds to first the Dominion polaron based weapons and later the Breen sheild dampening tech.

This is the Fed's greatest strength: The means to R&D their way out of anything thrown at them, and yes the Empire is huge and uses a force, ruthlessness and cunning the AQ has never seen before, but the UFP can triumph.

[Ender]

Fine Ender, call my arguments what you want. I've done my homework. I know just what Imperial starships can do,

Apparently not.

I know the Federation's completely outmatched by current standards, but if the Feds have shown ANYTHING, it's that they can do the R&D to find the nessecary technological advancements to get back up on their feet and kick their enemy's ass all the way to hell. Anything else you say cannot knock down this simple fact.

You are aware R&D actually requires time, right? It's not like what we see on the show where they McGuiver style everything. They will need time and information, neither of which they will get.

Need proof?

Yes, I do. Unfortunatly, you do not provide anything but misrepresntations and wishful thinking.

The Borg? See First Contact, bud. They may have lost a lot of ships (again) but they had advanced enough to actually make their weapons do real damage to the cube.

I saw first contact. I also saw Q Who, where they actually did more damage with their phasers then we see in FC. Are you arguing that the Feds R&D to make themselves weaker? In addition, the Borg are a false example, as circumventing their tech advantage is incredibley easy, and is what the Feds do.

Species 8472? Sure, they used Borg tech, but the Feds figured out how to use it.

That is not R&D. And have you ever heard of a "black box"? You can use something without understanding it.

The Dominion? The captured Jem'Hadar ships allowed the UFP to adapt their sheilds to first the Dominion polaron based weapons and later the Breen sheild dampening tech.

No, they altered their weak shields so that a weakness could no longer be exploited. That is not R&D, that is troubleshooting.

This is the Fed's greatest strength: The means to R&D their way out of anything thrown at them, and yes the Empire is huge and uses a force, ruthlessness and cunning the AQ has never seen before, but the UFP can triumph.

My God. You have totally taken leave of Logic, haven't you?

[TheDarkling]

Ender you are lucky this guy has the debating skills of a wet rag because you are making huige errors that could be easily refuted however if thats your plan to simply defeat him without effort carry on.

I cant resist this one though

You are aware R&D actually requires time, right? It's not like what we see on the show where they McGuiver style everything. They will need time and information, neither of which they will get.

Its not like what we see on the show? errm if they do it n the show then they are capable of it thats a very silly statement.

Generating 2000 GT isnt easy you know its not like in the movies the imps couldnt do it in a real Vs battle is just jibberish as you can see.

[EmperorMing]

Fine Ender, call my arguments what you want. I've done my homework. I know just what Imperial starships can do, I know the Federation's completely outmatched by current standards, but if the Feds have shown ANYTHING, it's that they can do the R&D to find the nessecary technological advancements to get back up on their feet and kick their enemy's ass all the way to hell. Anything else you say cannot knock down this simple fact.

Need proof?

The Borg? See First Contact, bud. They may have lost a lot of ships (again) but they had advanced enough to actually make their weapons do real damage to the cube.
Species 8472? Sure, they used Borg tech, but the Feds figured out how to use it.
The Dominion? The captured Jem'Hadar ships allowed the UFP to adapt their sheilds to first the Dominion polaron based weapons and later the Breen sheild dampening tech.

This is the Fed's greatest strength: The means to R&D their way out of anything thrown at them, and yes the Empire is huge and uses a force, ruthlessness and cunning the AQ has never seen before, but the UFP can triumph.

The speed and ferocity (weight?) of an Imperial attack will not give the Federation the time to come up with a "technical" solution to an Imperial invasion. Sure, given the time it is possible (likely?) for the Feds to capture and reverse-engineer Imperial Technology. I would also expect the Imperials to do the same-if they decide to use it.

The question remains, will the Feds be able to research, develope, and deploy any usefull items fast enough and in the quantity needed to forstall or halt an Imperial Invasion. Mind you, the Imperials *will* get the first shot and initiative.

Time is not on the Feds side.

[Ender]

I cant resist this one though

You are aware R&D actually requires time, right? It's not like what we see on the show where they McGuiver style everything. They will need time and information, neither of which they will get.

Its not like what we see on the show? errm if they do it n the show then they are capable of it thats a very silly statement.

Generating 2000 GT isnt easy you know its not like in the movies the imps couldnt do it in a real Vs battle is just jibberish as you can see.

Alright, bad coice of word there on my part. Allow me to clarify:

What we see on the show is not true R & D. What we see is modifications what they have on hand. We have seen examples of them building on the work of others (Numerous tmes in Voyager), we have seen them modify things (IE Worf's personal shield, the phase cannons on the Enterprise), and we have seen them adapt things to their use (Endgame). But never have we seen true R&D.

The closest example of true R & D I can ever think of was the episode where Reg gets zapped and begins inventing stuff out of thin air. Other than that, every bit of R & Ded tech has taken years to create (Defiant, Prometheus). And they will not have the time needed to conduct the needed research, fabricate the prototype, test it, modify it, test it, modify it, wash, rinse, repeat until it works.

I would be quite interested in hearing Wong's opinion on this topic, though I am pretty sure it is already on the website.

[EmperorMing]

The above would seem similar to the situation in WWII where Germany deployed the ME262 vs the American bombing campaign. Great plane, just not enough of them and too little too late.

On the other hand, the Imperial attack would look more like Desert Storm in space.

With a few minor differences, of course.