StarDestroyer.Net BBS

ray245 wrote:So given the fact that physical objects can wreck the hull of the Enterprise, does that mean a simple slug shot at any federation ship is enough to destroy it?

I was wondering that too. not ahving point defense weapons "Sort of" makes sense if your shields can repel physical objects. you are putting the resources into the shield isntead of the little turrets. Also if you are running around the universe telling people you are on a peaceful mission, it helps to not have extra turrets hanging around.

In this Trek, they HAVE point efenses, and we SEE physical objects damaging the hull when the shields are stated to be up. you can't even pretend the shields rob inertia, are keyed to objects moving at "harmful speed" (Dune, SG-1) and there isn't evidence of different "kinds" of shields. (SW specified "Ray shields" implying there would be some other kind).

On the other hand there was the comment shouted on board the kelvin "Are our shields even up??" implying the expected the shields to help them against the missiles being thrown at them.

Maybe the shields are "more" effective against energy weapons (No evidence though, ahve we even seen energy weapons fired at a federation ship yet?) but offer some degree of protection against small physical objects? "Advanced" torpedoes might plow through shields because they are built of futuristic tough materials, or propelled faster than the shields can account for. if Abrahms returned to the concept of "Deflector screens" instead what evolved into a protective bubble, that could mean the "Shields" are just projected energy that objects can float around, or even crash through with more force than is applied to the deflector screen. or the narada's missiles could just detect deflector screens and fly around them. The point defense turrets could act as a a back up system.

Jason L. Miles wrote: Also, the weapons officer seemed a little taken aback by the order, as if Kirk's confidence that "one should be enough" was crazy.

Even if the federation KNOWS the klingon ships ahve a single thermal exhaust port just over two meters wide, it would be crazy to think you hit it on multiple targets with one shot apiece, even if their shields were down, because even if they have no shields, they could move out of the way, or possibly use PDL of their own right?

Crazedwraith wrote:Perhaps not an explicit difference but I think in TOS, McCoy is called Bones because its a nickname for Doctors (sawbones) whereas in the film we see its from McCoy complaining "The Wife took the whole damn planet; all I got is my bones"

Were the bones referring LITERALLY to his bones? I thought he raised the flask, doe that mean Bones are his term for booze and McCoy is being called in essence "Lushy"?

Ted C wrote:

erik_t wrote:Let me rephrase. What was so impressive from a combat standpoint? Wikipedia would have me believe that it was much more capable in the combat simulations than a manned ship. This shouldn't surprise anyone if there was an autopilot which seemed perfectly combat-capable a generation earlier.

The M5 was capable of advanced tactical and strategic decision making. In the combat sim, it decided when to initiate combat, course and speed for best approach to its targets, prioritized targets, and actually fired the weapons. It decided when to press the attack and when to retreat. It was basically acting as both captain and crew for the ship.

Wasn't it a "big deal" in STIII that Scotty automated a constitution class to be run from the bridge with three people? Even if George was telling the Kelvin what to do and handling the "Strategy" just doing things like regulating propulsion, sensors and whatnot, implies a higher degree of computer automation than was used in TOS. but the crews are bigger?? What do all of those people do besides run around in the hallway and leave huge sections of engineering unattended while people swim around in water tubes with Ensign Darwin.

So given the fact that physical objects can wreck the hull of the Enterprise, does that mean a simple slug shot at any federation ship is enough to destroy it?

How does that even remotely follow? Shields have never been a magic stops-all-impacts layer, and the shields in nuTrek behaved just as they did in the TOS movies - not as perfect bubbles, but as hull-huggers that cushion attacks. Note that the physical impact that damaged the Enterprise wasn't just any piece of random space junk, it was a massive structure going at a fair speed.

Also, the weapons officer seemed a little taken aback by the order, as if Kirk's confidence that "one should be enough" was crazy.

He was smiling. It looked to me like he knew that Kirk had rigged the simulation, so why not believe him when he says one torp would be enough? After all, if he can bug the simulator to drop the Klingons' shields and stop them firing, he can turn their hulls into cardboard just as easily.

Wasn't it a "big deal" in STIII that Scotty automated a constitution class to be run from the bridge with three people?

No. Ships were being run by individuals for short periods of time in TOS - think Kirk flying the Constellation.

The torpedoes of the Narenda seem to be some sort of mining charge. Considering the boom that antimatter in reactors causes, there is no way in hell that those are powered by antimatter.

Possibly Ultritium, which is supposed to be a chemical explosive with massive yield. (It was supposed to replace nuclear earthmoving charges).

The Narenda situation at the end of the movie might be a tordial singularity, instead of a classic point singularity. Possibly a naked one at that (Or else the viewpoints were just inside of the event horizon, which would explain why we don't see it.).

The autopilot deal seemed fine. He noticably runs back to it several times to update the orders, so it's not M5 quality.

It's more of a simulated AI/guidance system, akin to our missile technology currently; compared to the M5 being a mad Bolo.

Richardson wrote:The torpedoes of the Narenda seem to be some sort of mining charge. Considering the boom that antimatter in reactors causes, there is no way in hell that those are powered by antimatter.

Possibly Ultritium, which is supposed to be a chemical explosive with massive yield. (It was supposed to replace nuclear earthmoving charges).

The Narenda situation at the end of the movie might be a tordial singularity, instead of a classic point singularity. Possibly a naked one at that (Or else the viewpoints were just inside of the event horizon, which would explain why we don't see it.).

The autopilot deal seemed fine. He noticably runs back to it several times to update the orders, so it's not M5 quality.

It's more of a simulated AI/guidance system, akin to our missile technology currently; compared to the M5 being a mad Bolo.

Nero's ship is called the Narada, if you hurry you can still edit it. You might be thinking of the planet the Enterprise C disappeared over.

Themightytom wrote:Were the bones referring LITERALLY to his bones? I thought he raised the flask, doe that mean Bones are his term for booze and McCoy is being called in essence "Lushy"?

What the fuck are you talking about? He's saying he's skint; that she took everything. It's a turn of phrase to (hamfistedly) establish his nickname.

Themightytom wrote:Wasn't it a "big deal" in STIII that Scotty automated a constitution class to be run from the bridge with three people? Even if George was telling the Kelvin what to do and handling the "Strategy" just doing things like regulating propulsion, sensors and whatnot, implies a higher degree of computer automation than was used in TOS. but the crews are bigger?? What do all of those people do besides run around in the hallway and leave huge sections of engineering unattended while people swim around in water tubes with Ensign Darwin.

He was basically doing fuck all; shooting down some missiles, holding position, etc. He wasn't doing any exciting manouvring or responding to anything Narada was doing (because it wasn't doing anything). He was just scrambling around using different stations to keep the ship alive and manage the weapons to cover the shuttles.

I really want to know if the 'collision' button on the console always plots a 60-second collision course.

This other guys going on about how the Narada torps can't be antimatter because the explosions are too small is probably the funniest thing I've heard in a long time, and I wish I had some kind of photomontage of ST torp impacts to LOL at him with. Ultritium!!!

Stark wrote:

What the fuck are you talking about? He's saying he's skint; that she took everything. It's a turn of phrase to (hamfistedly) establish his nickname.

he was holding a flask up I wanted to check if "Bones" was some kind of reference to the flask. it would ahve been LESS ham fisted than the literal meaning.

incidently now i know what the word "Skint" means.

He was basically doing fuck all; shooting down some missiles, holding position, etc. He wasn't doing any exciting manouvring or responding to anything Narada was doing (because it wasn't doing anything). He was just scrambling around using different stations to keep the ship alive and manage the weapons to cover the shuttles.

I really want to know if the 'collision' button on the console always plots a 60-second collision course.

They have a collision button, but not a "transfer the controls of that other station to this one" button? Damnit I avhe to rewatch the movie, I didn't notice him playing musical chairs.

This other guys going on about how the Narada torps can't be antimatter because the explosions are too small is probably the funniest thing I've heard in a long time, and I wish I had some kind of photomontage of ST torp impacts to LOL at him with. Ultritium!!!

Like ST V where one lands like a hundred feet from Kirk Spock and McCoy?

Remember, the Kelvin's console was pretty old-school - toggles, little swizzle sticks, the works. I don't know WHAT he did to plot his collision course, but it clearly wasn't just 'drive straight line into target' because Kelvin gracefully sailed through the 'mess of girders' to wipe of Narada's superstructure (luckily 60s is too short for Narada's supertech future missiles to kill a single ship).

Stark wrote:(luckily 60s is too short for Narada's supertech future missiles to kill a single ship).

I'd rationalize that as the launchers reloading after the barrage at the shuttles, or the Narada still trying to hit the shuttles, but hey, even if they blew out the Kelvin, there's this thing called momentum that doesn't magically go away if you make something explode, the Kelvin's debris would have hit the Narada anyway.

Edit: Also, I wonder if the Kelvin was so inside the Narada it was out of the firing arc of most launchers.

It was still taking damage as it went in; you can see the rear end of the shuttlebay breaking off right before Kirk asks his wife if she can hear him.

Bounty wrote:

Wasn't it a "big deal" in STIII that Scotty automated a constitution class to be run from the bridge with three people?

No. Ships were being run by individuals for short periods of time in TOS - think Kirk flying the Constellation.

More's the point, in STIII they were travelling at high warp all the way to the Mutara sector, which is not exactly in the neighbourhood

Stark wrote: I really want to know if the 'collision' button on the console always plots a 60-second collision course.

sixpack

The Narada's torpedos were multi-warhead, from what I could see. I believe that's the first time we'd seen any weapons in TOS or TNG that split into multiple munitions before striking.

They also seemed more of a Kinetic weapon than an explosive one.

Bounty wrote:It was still taking damage as it went in; you can see the rear end of the shuttlebay breaking off right before Kirk asks his wife if she can hear him.

It seems that it's pretty easy to cripply a ship in the new setting, but very difficult to destroy it, which I think is pretty cool. Stupid exploding spaceships.

Course, who knows how they killed the fleet at Vulcan. He'd already deployed the drill so maybe it really is just 'missile spam at long range'. Perhaps the interference from the drill also screwed the Fedder long-range targeting.

It somehow messed up transporters and communications. It very well could have messed up sensors.

This seems unlikely, since they had very good information as to the location and velocity of the spacediving folks, very near to the drill while it was in operation.

Oh yeah, it was totally 'subspace' interference.

TithonusSyndrome wrote:

Gandalf wrote:As for Delta Vega's supposed proximity to Vulcan, I assumed that Nero had a holoprojector set up so Spock could see Vulcan die from there.

They seemed to be good with the holographic technology on the Nerada, so they could easily have a bigger projector set up.

As fucking goofy as that sounds, if Delta Vega is indeed M-class and in the Vulcan system, it seems to lack a lot of settlement for a habitable planet in their backyard.

I saw it again today (4th time!) and in that scene there's a noticeable ring around Vulcan as it collapses in on itself. It's similar to the aura around the other projections used in the film.

Havok wrote:It somehow messed up transporters and communications. It very well could have messed up sensors.

I had figured it was the sudden change in position/ velocity/ etc. right as the transport engaged. Chekov could get Sulu and Kirk because they were on a course he could more or less predict, and that took him awhile. He couldn't adjust the transport quickly enough.

I, personally, would have stayed the hell away from the edge, but that's just me.

LadyTevar wrote:The Narada's torpedos were multi-warhead, from what I could see. I believe that's the first time we'd seen any weapons in TOS or TNG that split into multiple munitions before striking.

Not quite.

The E-D's photon torpedoes would periodically appear to split into three distinct pieces in the first few TNG seasons.

erik_t wrote:This seems unlikely, since they had very good information as to the location and velocity of the spacediving folks, very near to the drill while it was in operation.

Well that is a damn good point against my suggestion.

Gandalf wrote:

LadyTevar wrote:The Narada's torpedos were multi-warhead, from what I could see. I believe that's the first time we'd seen any weapons in TOS or TNG that split into multiple munitions before striking.

Not quite.

The E-D's photon torpedoes would periodically appear to split into three distinct pieces in the first few TNG seasons.

No, that's just several torpedoes getting launched together.

I have to go with Gands here. There have been times when a single torpedo leaves and then fairly soon before it hits, it spits into three and then impacts. Why do that if it is three separate torpedoes with three separate impact targets. Why not just fire three torpedoes.

Havok wrote:I have to go with Gands here. There have been times when a single torpedo leaves and then fairly soon before it hits, it spits into three and then impacts. Why do that if it is three separate torpedoes with three separate impact targets. Why not just fire three torpedoes.

Efficiency, maybe? We have cluster bombs in real life that work in a similar fashion. I don't see what makes it unusual with torpedoes if you're on a ship that's going to be pinched for space.

Considering than 'antimatter' in this movie either blows up hard enough to force a massive ship out of a black hole, or completely blow it up (which would be scary, but least-likely), I'm leary to call the Narada's missiles antimatter powered. Considering that it's a civilian ship, I find it unlikely that they are actual weapons, instead of repurposed mining gear.

Also, minimum and maximum speeds for the new Enterprise, going by movie/novelization.

If we go with an hour to vulcan, we get a speed of 16.1 ly an hour, 386.4 a day; 141,036 a year and for times c.

That's if we go by the novelization (It's not Rodenberry trek anymore, so the cannoncity could be possible. Information on the subject would be nice, but this is probable minimum speed.)

If we go by what the movie feels like, it ranges from 5-30 minutes.

5 minutes breaks down into: 193.4 an hour; 4636.8 a day, or 1,692,432 c. Which would be, what, low-end SW hyperdrive fast? This is taking that whole sequence as 'no time breaks, what you see is what happened'. I discount this, myself, but this is the absolute fastest that sequence could have happened, maximum possible speed we can get from this.

10 minute transit gives us a ly per hour figure of 96.6; or 846,216c.

30 minutes gives us 32.2 ly an hour; 282,072 c.

This seems to be fair spectrum, given the various sequences in the movie. We don't know how far the Laurentian system is from Earth, or how close the Enterprise got to it, so we can't calc the return trip.

Also, looking at the movie, even TOS shuttles seem to have small warp drives, if you look. Notable, are the big-nacell variants that the Kelvin launches, and the smaller, top of the hull nacell variants seen when they are boarding the Enterprise. I don't know how fast, but they were expected to apparently make it to safety. So, no further evidence as to how fast or far for them.

Sulu's sword... thing, would show at least enough of a grasp of material sciences to create memory metals, which is a nice plus for trek. if they can make a sword unfold like that, potentially, they could make any accessory into a lethal weapon, depending on how. (We need more information on how to trigger the transformation, and how to undo it, as well, since we didn't see Sulu's sword fold back.)

General Zod wrote:

Havok wrote:I have to go with Gands here. There have been times when a single torpedo leaves and then fairly soon before it hits, it spits into three and then impacts. Why do that if it is three separate torpedoes with three separate impact targets. Why not just fire three torpedoes.

Efficiency, maybe? We have cluster bombs in real life that work in a similar fashion. I don't see what makes it unusual with torpedoes if you're on a ship that's going to be pinched for space.

I'm pretty sure those are just multiple torpedoes being fired simultaneously, so they are "just firing three torpedoes", they're just sticking together for awhile until they break away.

Also it's usually more than three, I think it's usually either four or five. I think we only saw three when they blew up the booby trap in Booby Trap.

Captain Pike informs civilian Kirk (after the barfight with the Starfleeters) that he could graduate the academy in four years...and have his own ship in EIGHT!

Unless I'm mistaken, Admiral Tyler Perry graduates Kirk as a CAPTAIN...not an ensign or whatever Starfleet Academy calls their O-1s



BTW, when I first saw stills of "Leonard H. "Bones" McCoy, I thought cool, they found a Gary Lockwood lookalike to play Kirk's best friend in the academy, Gary Mitchell.

No Gary here, folks.