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What BabelHuber doesn't understand is that the Federation isn't remotely like the 20'th and 21'st centuries where the world seemed to shrink as a result of gasoline engines and jet aircraft. Its far more like European civilization during the age of sail. The distribution model completely changes when every trip could take weeks, months, or even years in extreme cases, and you never knew who would want to come on a trip with you because, hell, your ship is going in the direction they want to go. Sure, you see a few specialized ships during that time, like galleys in the Mediterranean that conducted a certain type of formation warfare at sea where oarsmen could allow those ships a very swift tactical speed and cannons made them an effective threat to taller vessels; but that was the exception rather than the rule, and it didn't take long before they stopped being used for much besides patrolling the coastline for pirates. The long distance craft had to be adaptable, and the whole "Golden Age of Piracy" thing was possible in part because the Spanish got greedy and sent treasure ships that were big on cargo space, and quite undergunned for their size. But after they stopped being idiots and started sending properly armed vessels again, privateers and pirates found it way harder to steal their shit and began doing far less profitable hijackings of, like, fishing boats and the like. Starfleet benefited from adopting a somewhat comparable attitude, although they do have freighters because its not a perfect analogy (there is no such thing as international waters, and the peaceful Federation is nonetheless quite active about keeping intruders out of their boarders), and the threats the ships face are generally of a more political nature rather than petty thieves. Except when dealing with the Ferengi, of course.

Obviously, the Federation fighter does not fulfill the same role as modern aircraft, because whereas modern aircraft revolutionized naval combat, no such thing has occurred in Star Trek. And it shouldn't be very surprising either. It is no faster than larger ships, it cannot outgun them, cannot outrange them with their weapons, they are basically no better at targeting weak points than larger ships (considering that Picard likes to micromanage Worf to such a degree that not specifying which system he wants shot is a sign that the situation has gone FUBAR, like in "Q Who?"), and it is no stealthier than a larger ship like Defiant. The one time we saw fighter craft using swarm tactics to overwhelm a ship it was a Maquis attack in "Preemptive Strike," and what we saw was that while they and the Maquis other raider ships can fight an outnumbered Galor, once the Enterprise showed up all it took was 3 torpedoes set to detonate in an area to completely disrupt their formation and force them into retreat. I'm sure they have some sort of role, but we don't know what it is. But given that three of the usual runabouts assigned to DS9 were able to fight two of them to a standstill in another episode, I'm guessing that they aren't seen more often for much the same reason that Galaxy class starships are preferred over Defiants. The people who would want to have them the most would likely be those running space stations and starbases, except that their usual accompaniment of shuttles and runabouts seem to get the job done just fine-- along with many, many other jobs.

In other words, he seems to have completely misread what meaning of the term "resource allocation" I was using. I wasn't talking at all about how you get resources from one place to another. I was talking about what are you spending your resources on? Short range, one trick ponies that cannot even preform the duty you need them to preform (i.e. patrolling space), or proper goddamned starships with whole compliments of shuttles at their disposal should a mission arise where you need a small craft for whatever reason? Hell, this thread was supposed to be about carriers in Star Trek, but the fact is that the ships we see already are carriers. Obviously, if they thought that fighters were useful they could simply cram a bunch of them into the shuttle bays of Galaxy class, Intrepid class, and whatever other ship classes they have that have a shuttle bay (which seems to be all of them-- even the Defiant). But they just don't, and we don't know why.

Formless wrote:What BabelHuber doesn't understand is that the Federation isn't remotely like the 20'th and 21'st centuries where the world seemed to shrink as a result of gasoline engines and jet aircraft. Its far more like European civilization during the age of sail. The distribution model completely changes when every trip could take weeks, months, or even years in extreme cases

Bullshit! The basic principle remains the same. You just need a different strategy for this supply chain.

You e.g. have to manufacture more stuff locally if the transport duration is bigger (= it could be more cost-effective to manufacture certain products in the area by shipping small factories than to transport them from other locations).

For products which still need to be transported, you need bigger warehouses to make up for a less frequent replenishment.

Of course you also would design your freighters accordingly, e.g. in the form of huge freighters which travel less frequently.

The only problem you would have is with products which need to be transported, but have a small shelf life, so the storage duration is limited. But this is also not unsolvable (e.g. by using faster, smaller freighters for such products).

Formless wrote:In other words, he seems to have completely misread what meaning of the term "resource allocation" I was using. I wasn't talking at all about how you get resources from one place to another. I was talking about what are you spending your resources on?

This doesn't make sense. You do have to replenish remote locations, so you need a strategy for this.

Formless wrote: Short range, one trick ponies that cannot even preform the duty you need them to preform

This is a fucking strawman. Of course cheaper ships also need to be able to perform the tasks they are designed for. And of course there are limits on how small such a ship can be.

But this doesn't mean that relying completely on war-ready cruisers is the best way to go, because such a ship is fucking expensive and hence should be replaced with cheaper ships when possible.

Simon_Jester wrote:You're committing the classic "sophomoric econ student" blunder here. You're taking assumptions informed by 20th and 21st century experience. And you're generalizing them to times and places where the basic rules of how technology operates, how goods move, how value is counted, are not the same. You're assuming that something which is a good decision in the context of 2000-era economics fits a time in the future, or the past, or an alternate world where society functions differently. And you're dismissing any argument others advance about how the rules have changed.

In the Federation, you still have manufacturing plants, don't you? And the products manufactured there still need to be transported to the location where they are needed, or not?

You can't produce everything near every outpost/ colony, e.g. spare parts for ships or other sophisticated technology.

And for this you still need a supply chain consisting of products stored at locations with transports in between. These transports are performed by "means of transport" with certain characteristics (cargo capacity, speed, endurance).

If you think this is not valid in the ST universe, I'm looking forward for your alternative concept.

Oh right, your concept is having the needed products at random locations, so you need high-speed Starfleet cruisers as stopgaps to make sure products are at the right locations at the right time.

Your angry babbling is irrelevant to this point. The point is that we have no evidence of Starfleet's cruisers being used to transport routine cargoes of the sort you describe.

For routine tasks, sure, you send unarmed or lightly armed cargo transports to shuffle goods around, sending them to where they will predictably be needed. By all evidence, the Federation does this. And it would seem that they have an entire other category of cargo ship doing it, because otherwise the plot of TNG would consist almost entirely of Picard hauling piles of rocks or teddy bears or other random stuff around the galaxy.

And it doesn't. The Federation doesn't have a problem with maintaining a 'supply chain' or whatever else you want to call the process of making sure routine goods get where needed.

Now, we do see the Federation using heavily armed multirole ships to transport certain kinds of cargo:
1) Emergency relief supplies, which by definition are being sent in response to an emergency and are not part of a routine shipping movement you can plan months or years in advance.
2) Valuable cargoes that need to be kept specially secure, and/or cargoes being sent to locations that are unstable. Neither of which can be sent from point to point through contested space on an unarmed ship.
3) Samples or devices of unusual scientific importance, which may have complex or exotic effects and consequences, and where it may be desirable to have a crew that can analyze and understand what the cargo is doing in-flight, rather than just sticking it in a shipping container and forgetting about it like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

None of which would be covered under the normal operations of a supply chain of lightly armed or unarmed freighters. And all of which would call for the use of relatively fast ships with diverse capabilities (often including exotic scientific facilities, or heavy armament).

In all three cases the Federation has a reason to use a ship like the Enterprise-D for the cargo movement. Using a freighter supply chain and nothing else would result in:
1) The freighters not having the needed supplies and/or not being in the right places to move them around, because the need could not be planned for in advance, or speed is of the essence to get the medicine to the plague-stricken world.
2) Cargoes being stolen by opportunistic Ferengi or the like, swallowed up by spatial anomalies, or otherwise lost.
3) Cargoes usually getting to the destination, but sometimes being stolen or destroyed. Plus instances of the ship being lost with all hands when it turns out that the new exotic mineral samples are allergic to warp flight. Because your random freighter doesn't have scientists as smart as Data or engineers as skillful as Geordi LaForge to figure out what's going on and counteract it before the ship is swallowed up by a negative space wedgie.

So you're angrily lecturing us on "supply networks" in a way that has nothing to do with any of the points we've been discussing. It's as though you were lecturing us on how Federation people are stuuupid because they don't know you need to drink water to avoid dehydration, because you think you remember this one episode where Riker got thirsty.

In fact, the Federation does not have a problem with not knowing how to avoid dehydration by drinking water, and it doesn't have a problem maintaining a routine supply chain for common, predictably needed products by using freighters either.

Simon_Jester wrote:Your angry babbling is irrelevant to this point. The point is that we have no evidence of Starfleet's cruisers being used to transport routine cargoes of the sort you describe.

For routine tasks, sure, you send unarmed or lightly armed cargo transports to shuffle goods around, sending them to where they will predictably be needed. By all evidence, the Federation does this. And it would seem that they have an entire other category of cargo ship doing it, because otherwise the plot of TNG would consist almost entirely of Picard hauling piles of rocks or teddy bears or other random stuff around the galaxy.

And it doesn't. The Federation doesn't have a problem with maintaining a 'supply chain' or whatever else you want to call the process of making sure routine goods get where needed.

Now, we do see the Federation using heavily armed multirole ships to transport certain kinds of cargo:
1) Emergency relief supplies, which by definition are being sent in response to an emergency and are not part of a routine shipping movement you can plan months or years in advance.
2) Valuable cargoes that need to be kept specially secure, and/or cargoes being sent to locations that are unstable. Neither of which can be sent from point to point through contested space on an unarmed ship.
3) Samples or devices of unusual scientific importance, which may have complex or exotic effects and consequences, and where it may be desirable to have a crew that can analyze and understand what the cargo is doing in-flight, rather than just sticking it in a shipping container and forgetting about it like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

None of which would be covered under the normal operations of a supply chain of lightly armed or unarmed freighters. And all of which would call for the use of relatively fast ships with diverse capabilities (often including exotic scientific facilities, or heavy armament).

In all three cases the Federation has a reason to use a ship like the Enterprise-D for the cargo movement. Using a freighter supply chain and nothing else would result in:
1) The freighters not having the needed supplies and/or not being in the right places to move them around, because the need could not be planned for in advance, or speed is of the essence to get the medicine to the plague-stricken world.
2) Cargoes being stolen by opportunistic Ferengi or the like, swallowed up by spatial anomalies, or otherwise lost.
3) Cargoes usually getting to the destination, but sometimes being stolen or destroyed. Plus instances of the ship being lost with all hands when it turns out that the new exotic mineral samples are allergic to warp flight. Because your random freighter doesn't have scientists as smart as Data or engineers as skillful as Geordi LaForge to figure out what's going on and counteract it before the ship is swallowed up by a negative space wedgie.

So you're angrily lecturing us on "supply networks" in a way that has nothing to do with any of the points we've been discussing. It's as though you were lecturing us on how Federation people are stuuupid because they don't know you need to drink water to avoid dehydration, because you think you remember this one episode where Riker got thirsty.

In fact, the Federation does not have a problem with not knowing how to avoid dehydration by drinking water, and it doesn't have a problem maintaining a routine supply chain for common, predictably needed products by using freighters either.

It was Troi who got thirsty in Genesis

Sorry, couldn't help it.

Now, we do see the Federation using heavily armed multirole ships to transport certain kinds of cargo:
1) Emergency relief supplies, which by definition are being sent in response to an emergency and are not part of a routine shipping movement you can plan months or years in advance.
2) Valuable cargoes that need to be kept specially secure, and/or cargoes being sent to locations that are unstable. Neither of which can be sent from point to point through contested space on an unarmed ship.
3) Samples or devices of unusual scientific importance, which may have complex or exotic effects and consequences, and where it may be desirable to have a crew that can analyze and understand what the cargo is doing in-flight, rather than just sticking it in a shipping container and forgetting about it like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

lets look at these 3 in detail shall we.

1)For this you're gonna send the closest ship you have avaible because more often then not you're not gonna have that much time to respond as by their very nature emergencies are unpredictble. Also these are in no way a routine cargo mission in a generally healthy nation (as the UFP is depicted as).
2)You're gonna need escorts for these types of missions anyway so if the amount of cargo isn't so large that you need a freighter, why not have cargo carried by the "escorts".
3)Starfleet is first and foremost a scientific and exploration organization, not a warfleet meant for conquest so having freighters carry this (generally small in size) cargo would reduce the research time and add pointless middle man to the process.

BabelHuber have you any examples of Starfleet using their top of the line ships for trivial routine cargo missions, not high value cargo mind you, routine cargo mission where no-ones life was on the line if the cargo didn't get there ASAP or cargo wasn't all that valueble in and of itself.

as for Genesis (the episode that is) that was hardly a normal situation. I'm getting sick and tired of people assuming that UFP must be filled with utter morons who can't even perform the simplest of task with little to no evidence to back that up.

Lord Revan wrote: as for Genesis (the episode that is) that was hardly a normal situation. I'm getting sick and tired of people assuming that UFP must be filled with utter morons who can't even perform the simplest of task with little to no evidence to back that up.

I wasn't being serious with that correction. IIRC, Troi had turned into half fish or half frog at that point, which is why she was thirsty. No, it wasn't a case of stupidity in being unable to ask for a glass of water. It was just simon said riker got thirsty... I was just saying it was Troi.

Simon_Jester wrote:Your angry babbling is irrelevant to this point. The point is that we have no evidence of Starfleet's cruisers being used to transport routine cargoes of the sort you describe.

I have taken the time to check the first 2 seasons of TNG on memory alpha:

Season 1:

Code of Honor
The USS Enterprise-D has traveled to Ligon II in search of a vaccine, found only on that planet, that is needed to cure a plague, Anchilles fever, on Styris IV, a Federation planet. Captain Picard has to negotiate with the Ligonian leader Lutan for the vaccine.

==> Enterprise is used as freighter, Picard as kind of ambassador.

Justice
After delivering a party of Earth colonists to the Strnad solar system we have discovered another class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun star system.

==> Enterprise transports colonists

Hide and Q
Having dropped Troi's shuttlecraft off at Starbase G-6, the USS Enterprise-D is fortunately close to the Sigma III system, when its Federation colony transmits an urgent call for medical help. An accidental explosion has devastated a mining operation there. There are 504 colonists at the site.

==> Sigma III is near a star base, but nevertheless the Enterprise is needed here (no other ships near the star base?)

Too Short a Season
The USS Enterprise-D has been sent to Persephone V to confer with Admiral Mark Jameson. Starfleet received a subspace transmission from Karnas, the governor of Mordan IV two days previously. In it, he says that terrorists have taken the Federation Ambassador Hawkins hostage. They want to talk to a Federation negotiator, and in his opinion there is only one man qualified – Admiral Jameson.

==> Enterprise transports a single "negotiator"

Home Soil
The USS Enterprise-D is on a mission to catalog young planets in the Pleiades Cluster. Along the way, they have been instructed by the Federation to check on the terraforming colony on Velara III, as they were behind schedule.

==> A full-fledged cruiser is used to catalog young planets, no other ship near the colony

Heart of Glory
Starfleet Command sends a communication to the USS Enterprise-D about a disturbance in the Neutral Zone, a battle. There are no Federation vessels in the area, and William T. Riker suggests that the Ferengi are involved.

==> No regular patrols in the neutral zone, Enterprise has to come to help.

Symbiosis
The USS Enterprise-D is investigating unusual solar flares and magnetic activity in the Delos system when they receive a distress signal from the Ornaran freighter Sanction orbiting the fourth planet of the system.

==> Science mission

The Neutral Zone
The USS Enterprise-D encounters a ship carrying cryogenically-frozen Humans from the late 20th century during a critical mission into the Romulan Neutral Zone to solve a mystery concerning a string of destroyed Federation outposts.

==> No regular patrols in the neutral zone, Enterprise has to come to help.

Season 2

Where Silence Has Lease
The USS Enterprise-D is on a charting mission in the Morgana Quadrant.

==> Science mission

Loud As A Whisper
The war-torn planet Solais V, desperate for peace, calls for the famous mediator Riva to hear their dispute. This man, being deaf and mute, depends on his telepathic powers, and those of his three aides, to communicate with others. The USS Enterprise-D is dispatched to Ramatis III to bring Riva to the planet

==> Enterprise transports a single "negotiator"

The Dauphin
The USS Enterprise-D is given the task of transporting the young leader of Daled IV, Salia, and her guardian, Anya, to their homeworld from their place of exile on Klavdia III.

==> Enterprise transports a few people

Pen Pals
The USS Enterprise-D is studying a series of planetary breakups in the Selcundi Drema sector. Planet after planet has been reduced to rubble, apparently as a result of natural geologic cataclysms.

==> Science mission

Samaritan Snare
The USS Enterprise-D is en route to the Epsilon IX sector for an astronomical survey of the Epsilon pulsar cluster.

==> Science mission

Manhunt
On a mission to deliver Antedean dignitaries from Antede III (who are brought on in a catatonic state) to a conference, the USS Enterprise-D is ordered by Starfleet to pick up Lwaxana Troi and to extend full diplomatic courtesies to her.

==> Enterprises transports cargo

Shades of Gray
The USS Enterprise-D orbits an unexplored planet named Surata IV. An away team of Lieutenant Geordi La Forge and Commander Will Riker are on the surface in an alien swamp, teeming with strange lifeforms

==> Science mission

After 2 seasons, I stopped. We see lots of missions in these two seasons alone where you wouldn't need a ship as expensive as the Enterprise.

BabelHuber wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Your angry babbling is irrelevant to this point. The point is that we have no evidence of Starfleet's cruisers being used to transport routine cargoes of the sort you describe.

I have taken the time to check the first 2 seasons of TNG on memory alpha:

Season 1:

Code of Honor
The USS Enterprise-D has traveled to Ligon II in search of a vaccine, found only on that planet, that is needed to cure a plague, Anchilles fever, on Styris IV, a Federation planet. Captain Picard has to negotiate with the Ligonian leader Lutan for the vaccine.

==> Enterprise is used as freighter, Picard as kind of ambassador.

Picard is a Federation Diplomat.
The vaccine was needed *now* - it was time critical. This was not a normal routine transport, it was an emergency.

Justice
After delivering a party of Earth colonists to the Strnad solar system we have discovered another class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun star system.

==> Enterprise transports colonists

Because they're already there. It was an ad hoc mission, not a routine transport.

Hide and Q
Having dropped Troi's shuttlecraft off at Starbase G-6, the USS Enterprise-D is fortunately close to the Sigma III system, when its Federation colony transmits an urgent call for medical help. An accidental explosion has devastated a mining operation there. There are 504 colonists at the site.

==> Sigma III is near a star base, but nevertheless the Enterprise is needed here (no other ships near the star base?)

Starbases can't go to warp. The Enterprise can. Enterprise was closer. It's an emergency situation. Jesus christ what is wrong with you?

Too Short a Season
The USS Enterprise-D has been sent to Persephone V to confer with Admiral Mark Jameson. Starfleet received a subspace transmission from Karnas, the governor of Mordan IV two days previously. In it, he says that terrorists

That's not a routine transport.

Home Soil
The USS Enterprise-D is on a mission to catalog young planets in the Pleiades Cluster. Along the way, they have been instructed by the Federation to check on the terraforming colony on Velara III, as they were behind schedule.

==> A full-fledged cruiser is used to catalog young planets, no other ship near the colony

And? How is this a routine transport mission?

Heart of Glory
Starfleet Command sends a communication to the USS Enterprise-D about a disturbance in the Neutral Zone, a battle

Symbiosis
The USS Enterprise-D is investigating unusual solar flares and magnetic activity in the Delos system when they receive a distress signal from the Ornaran freighter Sanction orbiting the fourth planet of the system.

I'm not actually bothering to read anything else you wrote. I'm really not.

Are you touched in the head or something?

Symbiosis
The USS Enterprise-D is investigating unusual solar flares and magnetic activity in the Delos system when they receive a distress signal from the Ornaran freighter Sanction orbiting the fourth planet of the system.

I'm not actually bothering to read anything else you wrote. I'm really not.

Are you touched in the head or something?

The point is not the fucking distress signal, the point is that the Enterprise's mission is to investiagate unusualy solar flares

If you don't understand this, there really is no point in arguing further. So in this regard you are right.

Edit: Quotes

Your little list seems to discount every single job the Enterprise does as somehow beneath it. Exploration of unusual solar flares is exactly Starfleet's mandate. It's what the E-D is for.

What jobs do you think the E-D should do?

Hide and Q
Having dropped Troi's shuttlecraft off at Starbase G-6, the USS Enterprise-D is fortunately close to the Sigma III system, when its Federation colony transmits an urgent call for medical help. An accidental explosion has devastated a mining operation there. There are 504 colonists at the site.


==> Sigma III is near a star base, but nevertheless the Enterprise is needed here (no other ships near the star base?)

Starbases can't go to warp. The Enterprise can. Enterprise was closer. It's an emergency situation. Jesus christ what is wrong with you?

Where did I say that a star base can go to Warp?

The point is that no other ship is near the star base which could do the job! Are star bases supposed to float lonely in space, without any ship nearby?

The point is not the fucking distress signal, the point is that the Enterprise's mission is to investiagate unusualy solar flares

If you don't understand this, there really is no point in arguing further. So in this regard you are right.

Most of the examples you provided are exactly what the Enterprise was designed for. Diplomatic negotiation? Check. Scientific surveys? Check. Showing the flag in areas of conflict? Check. Most of the cargo hauling examples you mentioned were either dire emergencies, incidental (picked up cargo or people while in the process of performing another mission), or the transport of diplomatic personnel (which the Federation places high priority on and it would make sense to use the most prestigious ship in the fleet for it).

A better question you should probably ask is, out of all the tasks where the Enterprise was designated to haul cargo or people from the outset of the mission, how many other ships were actually available to do the job? Perhaps the Enterprise was the closest ship, perhaps it was the fastest, perhaps it was the most secure, perhaps a combination of the three? Can you point to any episode where the Enterprise was selected for a job when there was quite clearly another ship available that could have done it better?

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:as for Genesis (the episode that is) that was hardly a normal situation. I'm getting sick and tired of people assuming that UFP must be filled with utter morons who can't even perform the simplest of task with little to no evidence to back that up.

I wasn't being serious with that correction. IIRC, Troi had turned into half fish or half frog at that point, which is why she was thirsty. No, it wasn't a case of stupidity in being unable to ask for a glass of water. It was just simon said riker got thirsty... I was just saying it was Troi.

I for one got the joke.

BabelHuber wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Your angry babbling is irrelevant to this point. The point is that we have no evidence of Starfleet's cruisers being used to transport routine cargoes of the sort you describe.

I have taken the time to check the first 2 seasons of TNG on memory alpha:

Season 1:

Code of Honor
The USS Enterprise-D has traveled to Ligon II in search of a vaccine, found only on that planet, that is needed to cure a plague, Anchilles fever, on Styris IV, a Federation planet. Captain Picard has to negotiate with the Ligonian leader Lutan for the vaccine.
==> Enterprise is used as freighter, Picard as kind of ambassador.

They need a fast ship, the Galaxy-class is the fastest ship class in the Federation at the time. Ligon II is presumably not deep within Federation territory (it is not a Federation member, does not share all Federation technology, and has some cultural values at odds with Federation custom), therefore negotiations are necessary. Picard is regularly and frequently employed as a kind of ambassador and negotiator and indeed his experience as a diplomat is one of his strongest points, which he has used dozens of times throughout the TNG era to the advantage of the Federation.

Makes sense to me. The only way that the Enterprise wouldn't have been the best choice for this mission is if there were a Warp 9-capable freighter just happening to be somewhere near Ligon II (that is, closer than the Enterprise), with a talented diplomat just happening to be on board. An unlikely coincidence.

Justice
After delivering a party of Earth colonists to the Strnad solar system we have discovered another class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun star system.
==> Enterprise transports colonists

Perhaps there was uncertainty as to whether there might be hostile alien presence (and indeed there IS a powerful race of enigmatic alien overlords, the rulers of the Edo, orbiting the undiscovered planet). If so, sending a strong ship to escort or carry the colonists to their destination and search the surrounding area to ensure it is safe would be logical.

Hide and Q
Having dropped Troi's shuttlecraft off at Starbase G-6, the USS Enterprise-D is fortunately close to the Sigma III system, when its Federation colony transmits an urgent call for medical help. An accidental explosion has devastated a mining operation there. There are 504 colonists at the site.
==> Sigma III is near a star base, but nevertheless the Enterprise is needed here (no other ships near the star base?)

Enterprise may well be the fastest ship present. Or, being a huge ship with accomodations for a thousand people, it may be the ship best equipped to provide medical assistance, with the most experienced doctor(s) and bioscience labs.

Too Short a Season
The USS Enterprise-D has been sent to Persephone V to confer with Admiral Mark Jameson. Starfleet received a subspace transmission from Karnas, the governor of Mordan IV two days previously. In it, he says that terrorists have taken the Federation Ambassador Hawkins hostage. They want to talk to a Federation negotiator, and in his opinion there is only one man qualified – Admiral Jameson.
==> Enterprise transports a single "negotiator"

A Federation ambassador has been taken hostage. There may be a need for armed response, so a well armed ship is in order. A smaller ship might be able to do the job, but you still need an armed ship with a solid force of capable redshirts on hand.

Home Soil
The USS Enterprise-D is on a mission to catalog young planets in the Pleiades Cluster. Along the way, they have been instructed by the Federation to check on the terraforming colony on Velara III, as they were behind schedule.
==> A full-fledged cruiser is used to catalog young planets, no other ship near the colony

This is exactly the sort of science mission Starfleet sends all its capable ships on. A Galaxy will have more diverse and capable science labs than almost any other ship in Starfleet at this time, and may well have more capable sensors that can discern more information about the planets it catalogues. It may therefore be able to learn more about those planets, more quickly.

A terraforming operation may well be expected to operate for long periods without outside help, and this is clearly a region far from Federation core territory (or they wouldn't still need to catalogue planets). It's no wonder there are no Federation ships nearby. Or, plausibly, no other ships that could actually DO anything to help resolve the situation if they have a scientific or technical problem. Whereas the crew of the Enterprise can (and does), although not in the way they'd expect or want.

Heart of Glory
Starfleet Command sends a communication to the USS Enterprise-D about a disturbance in the Neutral Zone, a battle. There are no Federation vessels in the area, and William T. Riker suggests that the Ferengi are involved.
==> No regular patrols in the neutral zone, Enterprise has to come to help.

No Federation vessels in the immediate area in any event- so yes, it is true that there are not always patrols blanketing the Neutral Zone. Clearly the Federation would benefit from having more ships... but that doesn't mean the problem is that they're wasting money building too many multirole ships and not enough weaker, less flexible ships.

Symbiosis
The USS Enterprise-D is investigating unusual solar flares and magnetic activity in the Delos system when they receive a distress signal from the Ornaran freighter Sanction orbiting the fourth planet of the system.
==> Science mission

Exactly the sort of thing the Galaxies were designed for.

The Neutral Zone
The USS Enterprise-D encounters a ship carrying cryogenically-frozen Humans from the late 20th century during a critical mission into the Romulan Neutral Zone to solve a mystery concerning a string of destroyed Federation outposts.
==> No regular patrols in the neutral zone, Enterprise has to come to help.

Federation outposts have just been attacked. The outposts may be there to monitor the situation and call patrols in from nearby bases.

Remember that ships are not supposed to enter the Neutral Zone, and even sending ships close to it is considered provocative. There are good reasons why the Federation might keep fixed outposts rather than moving patrols of warships on the edge of the zone, sending ships only when there is a specific call for their presence.

Season 2
Where Silence Has Lease
The USS Enterprise-D is on a charting mission in the Morgana Quadrant.
==> Science mission

Working as intended.

Loud As A Whisper
The war-torn planet Solais V, desperate for peace, calls for the famous mediator Riva to hear their dispute. This man, being deaf and mute, depends on his telepathic powers, and those of his three aides, to communicate with others. The USS Enterprise-D is dispatched to Ramatis III to bring Riva to the planet
==> Enterprise transports a single "negotiator"

Riva's security (and those of his aides) is important. Indeed, Riva's aides are attacked and killed by the violent factions on the planet- if anything, they needed a ship that could provide more effectual security than Enterprise, even though Enterprise is one of the biggest and most capable ships they have.

A smaller ship with a large security detachment could have done this job, but it would have needed to be a ship specifically intended to have a disproportionately large and capable security force. I don't recall, come to think of it, whether Solais V's factions have heavy weapons capable of threatening a starship. If they do (and they might), then the small ship with heavy redshirt detachment might be in disproportionate danger. Whereas a Galaxy that is likely tough enough to handle anything Solais V can throw at it.

The Dauphin
The USS Enterprise-D is given the task of transporting the young leader of Daled IV, Salia, and her guardian, Anya, to their homeworld from their place of exile on Klavdia III.
==> Enterprise transports a few people

The person in question being a head of state. It is common to use powerful or luxurious ships as a courtesy to foreign heads of state.

Pen Pals
The USS Enterprise-D is studying a series of planetary breakups in the Selcundi Drema sector. Planet after planet has been reduced to rubble, apparently as a result of natural geologic cataclysms.
==> Science mission

Working as intended. Also, this is a science mission to investigate a phenomenon that destroys planets. Sending a big, tough, fast ship in case the problem is NOT purely natural would seem prudent.

Samaritan Snare
The USS Enterprise-D is en route to the Epsilon IX sector for an astronomical survey of the Epsilon pulsar cluster.
==> Science mission

Working as intended.

Manhunt
On a mission to deliver Antedean dignitaries from Antede III (who are brought on in a catatonic state) to a conference, the USS Enterprise-D is ordered by Starfleet to pick up Lwaxana Troi and to extend full diplomatic courtesies to her.
==> Enterprises transports cargo

The cargo in question is a group of respected dignitaries. See my comment regarding Dauphin.

Shades of Gray
The USS Enterprise-D orbits an unexplored planet named Surata IV. An away team of Lieutenant Geordi La Forge and Commander Will Riker are on the surface in an alien swamp, teeming with strange lifeforms
==> Science mission

Again, working as intended.

After 2 seasons, I stopped. We see lots of missions in these two seasons alone where you wouldn't need a ship as expensive as the Enterprise.

In many of these missions, a less expensive and capable ship could have done the job. But on at least a few of these occasions, this less capable ship would have failed in the mission, or been destroyed by outside forces. And something similar would have happened in a number of other cases where the Enterprise responds to an emergency.

If Starfleet were in the habit of using smaller ships (but still advanced and high performance, just to match a Galaxy's speed)... They might save some money, but they'd be losing considerably more ships.

BabelHuber wrote: Where did I say that a star base can go to Warp?

Fuck off.

The point is that no other ship is near the star base which could do the job! Are star bases supposed to float lonely in space, without any ship nearby?

Enterprise was closer to the colony than the starbase was. So it was diverted for an emergency you cretin. Enterprise happened to be the nearest but they would have diverted all ships there.

And no not all star bases have ships attached all the time - some are... out on missions.

Every example you gave is either an unusual situation or an emergency.

The request was made of you to show standard courier missions - "routine" I think was the word used.

The Enteprise is a Galaxy Class Explorer. It's entire mission profile is scientific research, exploration, checking out new things and diplomacy.

Every. Single. Example you gave is the galaxy class either doing what it was designed to do, or being diverted due to an emergency situation - wherein, because it's designed to also evacuate colonies, do medical research, respond to terrorists, defend a colony, analyse some goo - It's doing exactly what it was designed to do.

Babelhuber doesn't seem to know what "trivial" and "routine" mean, Transporting exotic fruits from Bajor to Earth would be a trivial cargo mission as would be to transport people on mass who have signed up for Starfleet to Starfleet Academy. I can't remember a single time Enterprise did something like that.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

BabelHuber wrote: Where did I say that a star base can go to Warp?

Fuck off.

If this is all you can say after falsely accusing me of thinking that star bases can warp around, I'm done with you anyways.

And if everybody thinks that using a ship which can go toe to toe with a Romulan Warbird should be used for analyzing unusual solar flares and transport colonists to their new home, fine.

I think that this is a retarded way of using the Federation's resources.

If you think that it is OK that a Galaxy class ship is used on a regular basis for emergencies coming up, fine.

I think that predictive analysis should be used to make sure that most of the time a cheaper ship is available, and that a sophisticated supply network should be in place to avoid using cruisers as stopgaps. And with the resources the Federation has saved this way, having some warships is feasible.

There seems no point in discussing this further.

The Galaxy class was never designed as a pure warship. They were designed to be deep space, long range explorer ships. Having heavy armament when you're potentially years away from help is a prudent design choice. Saying that it's a waste of resources to have a SCIENCE ship conducting SCIENTIFIC research is rather puzzling, simply because said ship happens to be armed as well.

I'm still unclear what purpose BabeHuber imagines Galaxies should be put to.

Crazedwraith wrote:I'm still unclear what purpose BabeHuber imagines Galaxies should be put to.

During war time: Big badass cruiser

In peace time
- Showing the flag/ patrolling turbulent boarders
- Doing important diplomatic missions
- Perform long missions (where you need a big ship with lots of personal and long endurance)
- Performing missions in dangerous areas, where weaker ships would be at too much risk

BabelHuber wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:I'm still unclear what purpose BabeHuber imagines Galaxies should be put to.

During war time: Big badass cruiser

In peace time
- Showing the flag/ patrolling turbulent boarders
- Doing important diplomatic missions
- Perform long missions (where you need a big ship with lots of personal and long endurance)
- Performing missions in dangerous areas, where weaker ships would be at too much risk

...

Those are exactly the kinds of missions you're saying are a waste of time for the Galaxy class. What exactly are you trying to argue, again?

Borgholio wrote:Those are exactly the kinds of missions you're saying are a waste of time for the Galaxy class. What exactly are you trying to argue, again?

No. Read the tread.

BabelHuber wrote:

Borgholio wrote:Those are exactly the kinds of missions you're saying are a waste of time for the Galaxy class. What exactly are you trying to argue, again?

No. Read the tread.

Which part? You just recently implied that using Galaxies for science missions are a waste of time, as are using them for diplomatic transports. Now you're saying that's exactly what they should be used for. Perhaps you should clarify your position just so there is no misunderstanding.

Borgholio wrote:Which part? You just recently implied that using Galaxies for science missions are a waste of time, as are using them for diplomatic transports. Now you're saying that's exactly what they should be used for. Perhaps you should clarify your position just so there is no misunderstanding.

My position has always been clear, I think: Make a complete restructuring of the Federation's fleet, thereby reducing the number of multirole cruisers and adding a shitload of corvettes/ frigates, freighters and some warships.

This way the Federation would have much more ships, which can be on more places at the same time, thereby reducing the need for using cruisers for regularily occuring "emergencies". Instead, enhance your logictic network to rely less on cruisers.

For every mission, try to use the cheapest ship (e.g by analyzing fucking solar flares with a friagte/ corvette, using freighters to haul around colonists etc.)

The remaining "real" cruisers can then be sent to mission where such expensive ships are needed. If needed, warships can also be deployed, but most of them should form a reserve near Earth/ Vulkan.

But I seem to be quite alone with this thought here

1) Small ships tend to be slower rather than faster in Star Trek; this is not an ironclad law but it's common.

I agree, though obviously that's not the case with the Defiant.

Also, to summarize points others have cited:

2) Defiant's top speed as measured in warp factors during actual episodes appears to cap out below the comparable top speed of the Enterprise-D.

IIRC the Defiant's top speed is warp 9.5, while the E-D's is warp 9.6 (which can be sustained for a max of 12 hours). Yes that is indeed slower, but for the missions it was built for, it seems to do just fine.

3) Defiant or her sisters of the same class moving relatively slowly, having engine problems, or having difficulty reaching the top speed of modern Starfleet vessels is a plot point.

When first introduced, yes that was a plot point. However, by the time of STFC the engine problems appear to have been worked out, and see in "Message in a Bottle" that Defiants are able to keep with other ships like an Akira. And in the case of the Valiant, it was established that the ship had taken battle damage (which was why all the actual crew members were killed), had been running behind enemy lines for months, and was crewed entirely by cadets.

Not to mention all the times in DS9 when we see the Defiant (and later the Sao Paulo aka Defiant-A) keep up with other starships during the war.

It's easier to assume that Defiant just happened to be somewhere in the neighborhood of Earth (which did happen a few times in Deep Space Nine)

If that was the case, it just reinforces my point. Remember, it was explicitly mentioned to have been part of the initial fleet.
If the Defiant was near Earth, that meant it travelled from Earth all the way to the Federation rendezvous point, engaged the Borg at speeds in excess of warp 9 and fought it all the way back to Earth.

than to assume that this instance inverts everything else we know about the Defiant-class's performance.

Did you watch later seasons of DS9 and Voyager? They were able to keep up with contemporary ships without issues, so I fail to see why you seem to think they are still as slow as when they were first introduced.

I won't say they'd be slow in the sense of "a quarter the speed," but they might well be, say, 10% or 20% slower at maximum warp

Again, they were able to keep up with their contemporary ships when time was a critical factor for the mission (stop the Borg Cube before it reaches Earth, stop DS9 from blowing up the minefield, stop the Prometheus before it can reach Romulan space etc). Based on what we see, there is no evidence to suggest that it is slower than, say, an Akira or a Steamrunner. Or a Borg Cube for that matter.

and/or have poor sustained cruising potential. The latter would be particularly natural given that the Defiant is a relatively small, cramped ship.

The Valiant was on a mission to circumnavigate the Federation and was able to operate behind enemy lines for months, though it's clear it wasn't designed to do that.

Given the missions it was assigned alter in the series, "lack of speed" no longer appears to be an issue.