Taking up the ST/SW issue with a philosophical approach

[JodoForce]

Only xenophobia, and in my opinion it is justified -- from an biological and evolutionary standpoint, other species are inherently the enemy, as they compete with us for resources. This is not to say that it isn't possible to have peaceful relations or even alliances with other species -- but allowing them to claim equal rights simply because they are intelligent would be a serious error in judgement.

Human slavery is officially condemned, and the actions of a few corrupt officials do not equal Imperial policy. Sanctioned slavery and genocide campaigns targetted other species, and were therefore entirely ethical.

WTF?!? Let's all start on a campaign to kill every last non-human animal on earth!

[Striderteen]

Doing that would send our ecosystem to hell in a handbasket, which would leave us rather screwed since we don't have the technology to leave the planet. In any case, that's a straw man attack.


The "equal rights for all sentients" line spouted by the New Republic sounds high and noble, but it's evolutionary suicide. That's not saying we should wipe out every other species we encounter; it's recognizing that extending human rights to nonhuman species as an absolute rule is foolish.

Aliens are never our equals -- they can be superior or inferior, friendly or hostile, allies or servants, but never truly equals. Teatment of other species hould be on a case-by-case basis, and in all cases our concern should be for ourselves, the human race. If it is in our best interest to treat another species as equals and ally with them, so be it; if it is in our best interest to conquer and subjugate another species, so be it; if it is in our best interest to wipe out and utterly eradicate another species, so be it.

Imperial policy recognizes this. There can be only one top predator in an ecosystem, and we intend to make sure that it's humans.

[Thirdfain]

Dude- thionk about what you just said. Replace the word "Species" or "Aliens" with "culture" or "ethnic groups," and you have Hitler's philosphy RIGHT THERE.

[Striderteen]

Ah, but there's an important difference.

Culture and race are *artificial* distinctions grounded only in society. Species is a *natural* distinction grounded in biology.

[JodoForce]

There is obviously a biological distinction between people of different races and skin colors.

[Striderteen]

You're kidding, right?

The only biological distinction between races is some extremely minor differences in skin pigmentation and facial features. That's very different thing from completely different species!

[Illuminatus Primus]

Dude- thionk about what you just said. Replace the word "Species" or "Aliens" with "culture" or "ethnic groups," and you have Hitler's philosphy RIGHT THERE.

That's because in light of the fact the Empire IS xenophobic and racist and oppressive--he must justify it and explain that it is just intelligent human evolution--and that that morally justifies it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The only biological distinction between races is some extremely minor differences in skin pigmentation and facial features. That's very different thing from completely different species!

Bullshit--Imperial oppression, slavery, descrimination, and even genocide applied to several human subspecies who were deemed insufficiently human and labeled as aliens.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Human slavery is officially condemned, and the actions of a few corrupt officials do not equal Imperial policy. Sanctioned slavery and genocide campaigns targetted other species, and were therefore entirely ethical.

I rest my case.

However:

Firreroes are a human subspecies and were all killed. The Empire is a racist institution.

[Iceberg]

The layout of the elements in the periodic table isn't any more inaccurate than the layout of the letters in my keyboard.

Which, incidently, are inefficent.

But not wrong, that's certainly true.

Actually, the QWERTY keyboard was designed for maximum efficiency, under a typing constraint that no longer exists. Latham Sholes designed his keyboard to break up common letter patterns on the keyboard, not to slow the typist down, but to keep the swinging type bars from interfering with one another. To observe this phenomenon in action, slam both of your palms down on an old-fashioned typewriter (an arm-type one, not one of the electrical golf-ball typewriters) and watch the type bars jam.

The Dvorak keyboard, on the other hand, was designed with golf-ball typewriters and early computer terminals (like the PDP-1) in mind. With the constraint of keeping the type bars away from each other removed, John Dvorak was free to design his keyboard so that common letter patterns appeared next to each other on the keyboard.

A trained typist on a QWERTY keyboard can type just as fast as one on a Dvorak keyboard, it just takes a little more effort in training.

[Crazy Goji]

I must say something. I've been a lurker for the past few weeks, and I've noticed a common phrase: "RA/NR bias." You people make it seem as if the Rebels and Imperials are real factions. You make it sound like a bad thing if George Lucas or EU writers made the Imperials look bad because they like the Rebels more. Well of course they do. That's how the universe was set up. Wasn't the whole point of Star Wars: Rebel=Good, Empire=Evil? Look, according to canon (the movies of course), the Imperials were the heartless bastards that slaughtered millions and billions of innocents and the Rebels were the good guys trying to stop the evil heartless bastards that slaughtered millions and billions of people. And, according to cannon, were the people running the show in the Empire were not, infact, caucasian males with British accents? And it doesn't matter if a stormie is black or Asian or Latino because they are expendable cannon fodder.

[Enforcer Talen]

wow. another topic on whether the empire is evil or not.

[Lord of the Farce]

Firreroes are a human subspecies and were all killed. The Empire is a racist institution.

From my quick research into this, I have to point out that it was actually Hethrir, a Firrerreo, who ordered for the near-human specie (not human sub-specie) of Firrerreo to be enslaved and exterminated.

On the other hand, as I've already mentioned, one of the "Face" (pun intended) of the so-called Imperial Propaganda movies is in fact a member of a human sub-specie. And guess which side it was that kidnapped him for the purpose of making an example out of him?

[Lord of the Farce]

I must say something. I've been a lurker for the past few weeks, and I've noticed a common phrase: "RA/NR bias."
-snip

Look into the background of Star Wars, and you will find that it is suppose to be a tale of past events being told ("From the Journal of the Whills", anyone?), and who can forget the saying that "history is written by the winners"?

Yes, the Empire can be considered evil, but scratch the surface and you'll see that it's not just a case of simple black-and-white... Hell, it was Obi-Wan Kenobi who said that much of the facts that we cling to depends on our point of view?

And, according to cannon, were the people running the show in the Empire were not, infact, caucasian males with British accents? And it doesn't matter if a stormie is black or Asian or Latino because they are expendable cannon fodder.

Like I pointed out in an earlier post, we don't really get to see the political scene of the Empire in the movies, and since when are uniformed combatants considered to be "the people running the show"?

[Worlds Spanner]

Actually, the QWERTY keyboard was designed for maximum efficiency, under a typing constraint that no longer exists. Latham Sholes designed his keyboard to break up common letter patterns on the keyboard, not to slow the typist down, but to keep the swinging type bars from interfering with one another. To observe this phenomenon in action, slam both of your palms down on an old-fashioned typewriter (an arm-type one, not one of the electrical golf-ball typewriters) and watch the type bars jam.

The Dvorak keyboard, on the other hand, was designed with golf-ball typewriters and early computer terminals (like the PDP-1) in mind. With the constraint of keeping the type bars away from each other removed, John Dvorak was free to design his keyboard so that common letter patterns appeared next to each other on the keyboard.

A trained typist on a QWERTY keyboard can type just as fast as one on a Dvorak keyboard, it just takes a little more effort in training.

Really? I had always heard it was designed to slow people down b/c the early machine couldn't take the fastest typists.

[Iceberg]

Actually, the QWERTY keyboard was designed for maximum efficiency, under a typing constraint that no longer exists. Latham Sholes designed his keyboard to break up common letter patterns on the keyboard, not to slow the typist down, but to keep the swinging type bars from interfering with one another. To observe this phenomenon in action, slam both of your palms down on an old-fashioned typewriter (an arm-type one, not one of the electrical golf-ball typewriters) and watch the type bars jam.

The Dvorak keyboard, on the other hand, was designed with golf-ball typewriters and early computer terminals (like the PDP-1) in mind. With the constraint of keeping the type bars away from each other removed, John Dvorak was free to design his keyboard so that common letter patterns appeared next to each other on the keyboard.

A trained typist on a QWERTY keyboard can type just as fast as one on a Dvorak keyboard, it just takes a little more effort in training.

Really? I had always heard it was designed to slow people down b/c the early machine couldn't take the fastest typists.

Nope. Simply not true, and Mr. Sholes gets a bad rap for something he never did. In corporate tests, the predicted "QWERTY bottleneck" never actually appeared.

Without physically reducing the spacing between keys, there's really not very much you can do to speed up or slow down a person's natural typing speed, which is far more a function of their fine motor control than of keyboard layout.

[Worlds Spanner]

Huh. Thanks for that info.

I had no idea.

[Crazy Goji]

And, according to cannon, were the people running the show in the Empire were not, infact, caucasian males with British accents? And it doesn't matter if a stormie is black or Asian or Latino because they are expendable cannon fodder.

Like I pointed out in an earlier post, we don't really get to see the political scene of the Empire in the movies, and since when are uniformed combatants considered to be "the people running the show"?

Okay, I will take your early part into consideration, but like I said, it is fiction, the factions are fiction. There really is no such thing as bias in a made-up world.

And on the part that I quoted. By "people running the show" I meant in military terms like Star Destroyer or Death Star operators. There could very well be blacks or Asians or Latinos in the government or the military, but all you see are the white Admirals, Generals and even the "Death Star Troopers". This is all irrelevent to the topic at hand, though.

On to the topic: It doesn't matter if something is evil or good. What matters is superior technology, firepower, strength, and size.

[Illuminatus Primus]

From my quick research into this, I have to point out that it was actually Hethrir, a Firrerreo, who ordered for the near-human specie (not human sub-specie) of Firrerreo to be enslaved and exterminated.

The Chiss are even a human subspecies. Extreme similarity to humans suggests they are not even a subspecies, but perhaps just a race of humans.

Hethrir was ordered to eliminate his own race at the Empire's behest as a proof of his loyalty. It is Imperial policy--and it is the targeted genocide of a single race.

On the other hand, as I've already mentioned, one of the "Face" (pun intended) of the so-called Imperial Propaganda movies is in fact a member of a human sub-specie. And guess which side it was that kidnapped him for the purpose of making an example out of him?

The difference between a race and subspecies of human is quite narrow.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Look into the background of Star Wars, and you will find that it is suppose to be a tale of past events being told ("From the Journal of the Whills", anyone?), and who can forget the saying that "history is written by the winners")

The Journal of the Whills is only mentioned in SW canon as a quote in the forward of the novelisation of ANH.

Your analogy and argument is fallacious since the canon and official sources are mostly from the third-person omniscient perspective and are not in-universe historical documents (like the Essential Chronology, Essential Guide to Alien Species, and the New Essential Guide to Characters.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I must say something. I've been a lurker for the past few weeks, and I've noticed a common phrase: "RA/NR bias." You people make it seem as if the Rebels and Imperials are real factions. You make it sound like a bad thing if George Lucas or EU writers made the Imperials look bad because they like the Rebels more. Well of course they do. That's how the universe was set up. Wasn't the whole point of Star Wars: Rebel=Good, Empire=Evil? Look, according to canon (the movies of course), the Imperials were the heartless bastards that slaughtered millions and billions of innocents and the Rebels were the good guys trying to stop the evil heartless bastards that slaughtered millions and billions of people. And, according to cannon, were the people running the show in the Empire were not, infact, caucasian males with British accents? And it doesn't matter if a stormie is black or Asian or Latino because they are expendable cannon fodder.

You're completely right.

Some people don't understand Suspension of Disbelief. If it isn't a in-universe document, its from the third-person objective perspective and thus unbiased.

[JodoForce]

Anyone who can't see that the Empire is evil has less comprehension power than a 3-year-old, as DW has said in the Hate Mail section

[Lord of the Farce]

Anyone who can't see that the Empire is evil has less comprehension power than a 3-year-old, as DW has said in the Hate Mail section

*Gives Jodo the Evil Eyes look*

If that was directed at me, then I will be obliged to point out these quotes (and I will anyway):

... the possibility that part of what makes the Empire seem so racist...

and

Yes, the Empire can be considered evil, but scratch the surface and you'll see that it's not just a case of simple black-and-white...

Now on the other hand, if you were aimming at Striderteen, feel free to do so (he can defend himself).

[Striderteen]

Point one: I'm a girl.

Point two: Genetics trumps squeamishness; competition is the way nature goes. You can't really talk about alien rights any more than you could talk about insect rights or bacteria rights.

[Lord of the Farce]

Point one: I'm a girl.

Ah, my apologies for the mistake.

Point two: Genetics trumps squeamishness; competition is the way nature goes. You can't really talk about alien rights any more than you could talk about insect rights or bacteria rights.

Yet we have animal right. And in fact, if I recall something from the vague mists my memory of something from some years ago correctly, one of the first successful child abuse cases was won using animal rights laws!