29th Century Federation vs. Galactic Empire(Split)

[Evil Jerk]

On the other hand there are several examples that don't make sense in the time-travel-spawns-new-universes theory. For instance in "Children of Time" the subjective present changes whilst the Defiant does *nothing*. They fly away from the technobabble and do not interact. Yet the descendants cease to exist.

Somebody else does it for them! How many times, it is NOT inaction.

Another fun one is "Time's Orphan" you have Molly Obrien thrown into the past and retreived after 10 years. At the end of the episode the 18 year old Molly is sent back, but the timing is off. She meets here 8 year old self ... whom she sends back to the future. The 18 year old Molly then dissappears (if I recall the show right ... its been a long while). The fun thing in this one is the "present" is changed ... but we are *NOT* following a specific subjective point of view. If we suspend disbeleif we are seeing the planet with no one on it and 18 year old Molly disappearing for the hell of it.

Why would the present be changed? What if it was supposed to happen like that?

Or of course we can talk about "Cause and Effect" how in hell do you burn 17 days worth of time (starfleet standard subjective) by spinning off new universes?

That was some kind of temporal loop, not time travel, doesn't really count.

[TheDarkling]

You do realise that your arguments are rather flimsy when it comes to discrediting the SF peoples better knowledge of time travel.

They understand how a warp core works better that you or I - correct?
The "warp cores also explode" idiocy has gone on long enough - how many warp core expolsions did you see during DS9 including the battle scenes?
How many times during TOS?, How many times during Voyager? and how many time during TNG?

I think you find that a huge percentage of the warp core problems come from TNG and one ship, now if one ship exhibits a failure that other shiip classes dont want is the logical conclusion?

You still arent understanding me however.

Future Odo's actiosn in stopping the Defiant cant possible affect our timestream since it was another Defiant that created the colony all Odo's actions did was prevent the Defiant from falling into another timestream (so he wuold alter that timestream not ours) therefore there should be no affecrt on ours because Odo didnt prevent the other Defiant from going back in time, our Defiant should have come out of the anomaly and seen that the colony still existed.

There was no reason for a new reality nothing had changed for ours, Odo altered another reality - so the defiant must switch places with another Defiant for no reason.

You havent addressed Guinans temporal power or whatever is was and you have experts in the field as well as lay person with more experience against you.

This will be my last post on the matter unless someone brings up something new.

[Evil Jerk]

You do realise that your arguments are rather flimsy when it comes to discrediting the SF peoples better knowledge of time travel.

They understand how a warp core works better that you or I - correct?

They apparentley don't know how to implement proper safety systems however.

The "warp cores also explode" idiocy has gone on long enough - how many warp core expolsions did you see during DS9 including the battle scenes?

As soon as the ships took a bit of damage: KABOOM!

How many times during TOS?

They don't make them like they used to..

, How many times during Voyager?

Several warp core malfunctions.

and how many time during TNG?

Oh, about every other episode

I think you find that a huge percentage of the warp core problems come from TNG and one ship, now if one ship exhibits a failure that other shiip classes dont want is the logical conclusion?

Except: They do.
Especially in the fleet battles, I've seen ships spontaneously combust.

You still arent understanding me however.

Future Odo's actiosn in stopping the Defiant cant possible affect our timestream since it was another Defiant that created the colony all Odo's actions did was prevent the Defiant from falling into another timestream (so he wuold alter that timestream not ours) therefore there should be no affecrt on ours because Odo didnt prevent the other Defiant from going back in time, our Defiant should have come out of the anomaly and seen that the colony still existed.

It can't have, it was in a new timeline where the colony never existed.

There was no reason for a new reality nothing had changed for ours, Odo altered another reality - so the defiant must switch places with another Defiant for no reason.

It did not switch places, it entered a brand new reality broken off from the original at the point where the Defiant was to crash.

You havent addressed Guinans temporal power or whatever is was and you have experts in the field as well as lay person with more experience against you.

I did. I said she might have sensed the alternate reality through the rift since it was in both universes.

[TheDarkling]

Quote:
You havent addressed Guinans temporal power or whatever is was and you have experts in the field as well as lay person with more experience against you.


I did. I said she might have sensed the alternate reality through the rift since it was in both universes.

Sorry I didnt see this however you are forgetting that she remember the events after the rift has closed (asking Geordi about Tasha) and later when Sela appears.

[tharkûn]

Somebody else does it for them! How many times, it is NOT inaction.
Who? Hast thou any proof or is this mysterious villian just pulled out of thin air?

From we what we see and what we hear in the episode the Defiant does NOTHING yet winds up in another universe. Spawning new universe by NOT going back in time. Yes that's the hallmark of a good theory.

Why would the present be changed? What if it was supposed to happen like that?
Sigh you missed the ""s around present. Molly get's thrown 300 years back into the past at the beginning of the episode. At the end of the episode an 18 year old Molly get's sent back to the exact same time (give or take a few minutes). Old Molly sends Young Molly back to her parent's. Old Molly then disappears and there is no one the scream. We are NOT following the point of view of somebody who just made a new reality. There is NO reason for Old Molly to disappear and no reason to shift perspective (there is no observer to follow).

That was some kind of temporal loop, not time travel, doesn't really count.
The E-D arrives 17 days out of sync with the rest of the universe. The Bozeman arrives 90 years out sync and is clearly not travelling at high enough relative velocities to be that dilated wrt the E-D. How else do you eplain the differences in time spent in the loop? The bozeman moves 90 years into the future without aging 90 years and without travelling at 2.9999*10^8 m/s or more ... how in hell does that happen without time travel?


Clearly time travel is not always a simplistic go back in time, change the past, spawn new universe, move forward to something close to where you left off.

It can't have, it was in a new timeline where the colony never existed.
WHY?

Oh wait the little pink magic faeries put it there. It doesn't go back in time, so it SHOULDN'T SPAWN A NEW UNIVERSE BY DOING JACK DIDLY SQUAT.

It did not switch places, it entered a brand new reality broken off from the original at the point where the Defiant was to crash.
WHY?

Look where your theory has gotten you. Random universes are spinning off without a cause. People get sent into said random universes by not going back in time and dicking with everything.

Maybe you can dredge up some killer quotes from the scripts (I don't have em so I could be wrong ... I doubt it) to explain how all these examples work out, but until you do ... you are not explaining WHY things happen and are saying things happen just to make your theory work.

[Eframepilot]

Because they intefered.
Had they remained on the Defiant under cloak not doing anything but observing, they would've changed absolutley nothing.
This is probably how the past observers of the 31st century do it, unless they're all as stupid as Daniels.

They didn't interfere much. Odo was just hanging out where there wasn't anyone in the original episode. If they had stayed cloaked, there would still be two versions of events: the version where there was no cloaked ship shadowing and the version with a cloaked ship. Their presence is itself a change.

Of course it's speculation, but it is possible.
Annorax spent 200 years butchering history and never got his desired result, it could be the same in this case too.
What I said about a mega-tyrant is just an example, any number of bad or good things may happen, but it's completley random.

Annorax was trying to achieve a single outcome, the recreation of his home and wife. Starfleet would be trying to prevent a single outcome, the creation of the Empire. Any timeline without an invading evil Empire would be fine. Starfleet doesn't care if Luke Skywalker is born, or if Boba Fett collects the bounty on Han Solo, or if Han Solo wins the Millenium Falcon from Lando. All they want is no Empire. Any random outcome OTHER than an Empire is just fine.

But since they don't know anything about the history of the Empire, they would have to research it quite a bit in the past, and in the time they spent asking questions, Palpatine would nail them.

After all, Palpatine spent so much time looking for time-traveling assassins from other galaxies. Gimme a break, Sidious won't suspect anything! All they need is his name. Then they could look up his address in a public address on Coruscant around the time of TPM and telefrag him and all lifesigns in his quarters. If the Jedi thoroughly investigate, they'll probably find his secret stashes of Sith stuff, be astonished, and judge his death as a blessing.

[Eframepilot]

About the two theories: one changing timeline vs. generation of separately existing alternate timelines.

The one changing timeline theory is very similar to the multiple existing timeline theories. For every "generates a new timeline", substitute "replaces the old timeline with a new one". For every "X is transferred to new timeline from old one due to technobabble reason", substitute "X is sole remnant of old timeline in new timeline due to technobabble reason". The only difference is that the generation of alternate timelines theory proposes the creation of totally unobserved space-time continua while the single morphing timeline theory proposes no such thing.

Why does old crazy Braxton still exist in 1996 in our theory? For the same technobabble reason that he is still present in the "main" timeline in yours! Why did Kirk, Spock, Uhura and Scotty not vanish like the Enterprise in "City on the Edge of Forever"? Because of their proximity to the Guardian of Forever, which is the same reason they were pulled into another timeline in yours! Why did we see a shockwave of the older timeline being replaced by the newer one whenever Annorax made a change in "Timeless"? For the same reason that...oh, wait, your theory can't explain that while ours can.

The theory of a single, changing timeline explains the paradoxes occuring in Trek just as well (better in some instances) than the multiple existing timelines theory. It is also the theory believed by ALL the characters in canon dialogue. Finally, it is simpler. Proposing the existence of infinite unseen alternate timelines is a gross violation of the Law of Parsimony, especially when nothing is gained by this. The single, changing timeline theory is in better agreement with what we observe and is therefore superior.

[Mr Bean]

Alright fokes this has gone on Long enough let me say this very clearly

Time Travel IS a Cop-Out, Just like saying the Federation will be saved by Q, Just like saying that the Feds could load eveyone in a huge ship and fly away, Just like saying well it's all just Fiction, Time-Travel IS a Cop-out, Its a method of avoiding the Fight altogther

I don't care about any of the other uses for time travel, anywhere from doing battles over agian to the greatest Intel assest in existance to accidnelty cauing a parodox and destroying everything, Its not relevent, Its a cop out, If you wish to discuss this in any way BESIDES a veries debate, I'd be happy to split it off into the Other Sci-Fi forum

Otherwise stop it

[TheDarkling]

And Beans Mod pwoer induced madness continues.
Madness would be me deleting all the ST, VS SW threads~Mr Bean
Using time travel to go back in time and wipe out the empire is a cop out (however it is a viable tactic maybe not for the 24th Feds but for the 29th onwards - limiting its use is simply because it invalidates the debate, however if the Imps invaded in Tos using a wormhole Kirk would finds its locale zip back and destroy it before the Imps arrive (he did something very similar some it aint out of character)).

In the above case we void time travel because it prevents any debate in the same way that Q does (you might say the 200GT does that but that still leaves room for debate (not on the outcome but on some issues regarding both ST and SW tech).

The use of time travel as an Intel weapon and possibly as a short range weapon however (the Timebomb of Doom) isnt a cop out in anyway for the 29th onwards its a viable tactic but I understand your reluctance to accept that because it puts the imps in a very weak place, prehaps weaker then the Feds currently are.

[Mr Bean]

The use of time travel as an Intel weapon and possibly as a short range weapon however (the Timebomb of Doom) isnt a cop out in anyway for the 29th onwards its a viable tactic but I understand your reluctance to accept that because it puts the imps in a very weak place, prehaps weaker then the Feds currently are.

No just the problem of Accidently Parodox= Blowing up the Universe

There is nothing about the weaking of the Imperals I have a problem with but the fact is that the Issue is so unclear(Is it Multiple Time-Lines or just one which can be altered under-certian circumstances?)

IE Inculding Time-Travel as a weapon is like saying what if we disabled all the Targeting computers, placed them on manual and got the crews on both sides.. reaaaaaaaaaaallly drunk, its just not possible to have a debate with that many unknows

[Mr Bean]

A comparsion for you all


Inculding Time-Travel in any shape is similar to this....(The following example is ment to demsotrate the to many unknows problem)

In my right hand I hold somthing

Its either a Pine-Needle, A Gernade Pin, A Pencil Stub, A .22 Hand-gun bullet, A scrap of paper, A sticky Note, a blade of grass, or nothing

Which is it?
Discuss


There are simply to many unknows to pick a statsifactory answear and decided what I'm holding in my hand with out doing furher expermentation and questioning

In short there are still to many unknows to have an acceptable theory

[beyond hope]

"Everything is proceeding exactly as I have foreseen..." (Emperor Palpatine)

"He sees things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes: it's a Jedi trait..." (Qui-Gon Jinn)

In a nutshell, that's why the 29th century Feddies can't use time travel to stop the Empire. Palpatine and Vader can both sense Feddie assassins trying to kill them (and I pity the poor man who actually tries to assassinate either one in person.) Go further back and you don't just have two Sith to deal with, you also have several thousand Jedi capable of sensing your intent to cause harm or who foresee damage caused by sabotage. Force powers are pretty common in the Star Wars galaxy... from what I remember you'd easily have to go back 10,000 years or more to find a time before the Jedi Knights existed.

Also, look at this possible chain of events: the 29th century Federation learns of the Empire's intent to invade and sends assassins back to kill Palpatine. The assassins fail and Palpatine learns of the Federation's existance, and the wormhole connecting the two galaxies. To the Empire, the Federation's attempt on the Emperor's life will seem like a cowardly and unprovoked act of terror. What does the Empire do? You guessed it: invade the 24th century Federation, who have no idea where this "Galactic Empire" came from and why they're so intent on flattening the Federation like a pancake. A few ragtag refugees flee the devastation, in 500 years becoming the 29th century Feds, who go back to stop the Empire from forming... (repeat chain of events ad nauseum.)

[TheDarkling]

There arent any unknowns as shown here - Trek circumvents the grand father paradox and there is only one timeline which they can move around in with ease.

But you are correct in sayin there are some unknowns but this thread is on the 29th century Feds - all we know of them is time travel, remove that and we know they exist and have an FTL that would makes Imps heads explode (an FTL reaching Asgard from SG1 speed - thats some speed) but tats about it.

[TheDarkling]

beyond hope:
Vader:"my son is with them"
Palp: "are you sure"
Vader "I have felt him my master"
Palp: "strange that I have not"

This proves his foresight failed aswell as his sense of what was going on around him (he may have been bluffing I suppose".

I didnt really need to do that all I have to say is Vader was Palps most trusted right hand dude and he killed him, Palp never saw it coming, not to mention that Palp may not be able to see Feds in the force at all.

Jedi arent Gods and they only get brief insight, "always in motion is the Future"

[Admiral_K]

roll: You do realise that your arguments are rather flimsy when it comes to discrediting the SF peoples better knowledge of time travel.

They understand how a warp core works better that you or I - correct?
The "warp cores also explode" idiocy has gone on long enough - how many warp core expolsions did you see during DS9 including the battle scenes?
How many times during TOS?, How many times during Voyager? and how many time during TNG?

I think you find that a huge percentage of the warp core problems come from TNG and one ship, now if one ship exhibits a failure that other shiip classes dont want is the logical conclusion?

You still arent understanding me however.

Future Odo's actiosn in stopping the Defiant cant possible affect our timestream since it was another Defiant that created the colony all Odo's actions did was prevent the Defiant from falling into another timestream (so he wuold alter that timestream not ours) therefore there should be no affecrt on ours because Odo didnt prevent the other Defiant from going back in time, our Defiant should have come out of the anomaly and seen that the colony still existed.

Um they were transported to an alternate timeline where they didn't crash. The defiant from that timeline was transported to yet ANOTHER alternate timeline. You see, since the realm of possibilitys are infinite, you could end up in a world that for all intents and purproses is nearly an exact copy of the one you left.

There was no reason for a new reality nothing had changed for ours, Odo altered another reality - so the defiant must switch places with another Defiant for no reason.

No, the defiant in the other timeline may have hit the anomaly, and either crash landed founding the colony in an alternate timeline, or again another odo may have fixed its trajectory as well sending it into yet ANOTHER timeline.

You havent addressed Guinans temporal power or whatever is was and you have experts in the field as well as lay person with more experience against you.

What of Guinans temporal power? You mean her "Feeling" that something "wasn't right" in Yesterdays Enterprise? That could have been anything. No doubt, if the Enterprise C had not gone back into the anomaly, the Timeline which we saw from that point on would not have existed. And these self proclaimed "experts" apparently are quite ignorant. Whenever Feds time travel they ASSUME they are somehow protected from the changes because of some technobabular excuse, when in reality they are from a different universe. Otherwise, anytime they beamed off their ship they would cease to exist.

This will be my last post on the matter unless someone brings up something new.

That is probably for the best.

[beyond hope]

Darkling: I think Luke sums things up pretty well when he tells Palpatine "your overconfidence is your weakness." Indeed, why shouldn't Palpatine be overconfident? He engineered the fall of the Republic, the almost-complete destruction of the Jedi Knights, and the rise of the Empire. To that point, everything had indeed proceeded exactly as he had foreseen. It was the last-second action of Vader to save his son that spelled the Emperor's doom, and the Emperor was so intent on killing Luke at that point that he didn't see it coming. Jedi precognition seems to deal best with immediate threats: it's not impossible that time-travelers couldn't kill either Palpatine or Vader, but I'd see it being a difficult task.

At any rate, maybe an invasion by the Empire isn't considered an unacceptable event by the 29th century Federation. Maybe in those 500 years since they've eventually rebelled against the Empire, and the technology they gained gave them the edge they needed down the line to fight these 31st century enemies of theirs. Food for thought.

[Evil Jerk]

Because they intefered.
Had they remained on the Defiant under cloak not doing anything but observing, they would've changed absolutley nothing.
This is probably how the past observers of the 31st century do it, unless they're all as stupid as Daniels.

They didn't interfere much. Odo was just hanging out where there wasn't anyone in the original episode. If they had stayed cloaked, there would still be two versions of events: the version where there was no cloaked ship shadowing and the version with a cloaked ship. Their presence is itself a change.

Wrong, a cloaked ship might've always been there.
If it didn't interact with anything, if nobody saw it, it'd change nothing, it's presence would be predestination.

Of course it's speculation, but it is possible.
Annorax spent 200 years butchering history and never got his desired result, it could be the same in this case too.
What I said about a mega-tyrant is just an example, any number of bad or good things may happen, but it's completley random.

Annorax was trying to achieve a single outcome, the recreation of his home and wife. Starfleet would be trying to prevent a single outcome, the creation of the Empire. Any timeline without an invading evil Empire would be fine. Starfleet doesn't care if Luke Skywalker is born, or if Boba Fett collects the bounty on Han Solo, or if Han Solo wins the Millenium Falcon from Lando. All they want is no Empire. Any random outcome OTHER than an Empire is just fine.[/quote]

Even if it results in an Uber-Empire?

But since they don't know anything about the history of the Empire, they would have to research it quite a bit in the past, and in the time they spent asking questions, Palpatine would nail them.

After all, Palpatine spent so much time looking for time-traveling assassins from other galaxies. Gimme a break, Sidious won't suspect anything! All they need is his name. Then they could look up his address in a public address on Coruscant around the time of TPM and telefrag him and all lifesigns in his quarters. If the Jedi thoroughly investigate, they'll probably find his secret stashes of Sith stuff, be astonished, and judge his death as a blessing.[/quote]

Oh come on! This is so oversimplified I'm not even going to bother responding.

[Eframepilot]

Darkling: I think Luke sums things up pretty well when he tells Palpatine "your overconfidence is your weakness." Indeed, why shouldn't Palpatine be overconfident? He engineered the fall of the Republic, the almost-complete destruction of the Jedi Knights, and the rise of the Empire. To that point, everything had indeed proceeded exactly as he had foreseen. It was the last-second action of Vader to save his son that spelled the Emperor's doom, and the Emperor was so intent on killing Luke at that point that he didn't see it coming. Jedi precognition seems to deal best with immediate threats: it's not impossible that time-travelers couldn't kill either Palpatine or Vader, but I'd see it being a difficult task.

Remember that Palpatine also completely missed foreseeing that the Ewoks would be a significant factor in the battle on Endor. He was doomed even if Luke had turned to the dark side. You should NEVER be overconfident. That's why it's called overconfidence.

At any rate, maybe an invasion by the Empire isn't considered an unacceptable event by the 29th century Federation. Maybe in those 500 years since they've eventually rebelled against the Empire, and the technology they gained gave them the edge they needed down the line to fight these 31st century enemies of theirs. Food for thought.

Huh? I thought we were talking about the Empire invading the 29th century, not invading the 24th and the Future Feds trying to stop them.

[tharkûn]

Time Travel IS a Cop-Out, Just like saying the Federation will be saved by Q, Just like saying that the Feds could load eveyone in a huge ship and fly away, Just like saying well it's all just Fiction, Time-Travel IS a Cop-out, Its a method of avoiding the Fight altogther

Just like saying that Imps never have to fight feddies on a battle of their own choosing, just like saying the galaxy gun can kill any big threat against the empire.

And frankly avoiding a fight is normally considered a GOOD THING, if you win with minimal loss of life and low chance of failure ... who WOULDN'T do it?

Its no different than *NUCLEAR BOMBS*. Go to any military strategist and say could the US defeat the USSR at the height of the cold war, and see *exactly* how long it takes for nuclear weapons to crop up. What do nukes do? They avoid the fight. When both sides suffer multimillion casualties, huge losses in infrastructure, and ever rising death tolls the fight is MOOT. Its grossly negligent to ignore things WMD's because they "avoid the fight".

don't care about any of the other uses for time travel, anywhere from doing battles over agian to the greatest Intel assest in existance to accidnelty cauing a parodox and destroying everything, Its not relevent, Its a cop out, If you wish to discuss this in any way BESIDES a veries debate, I'd be happy to split it off into the Other Sci-Fi forum

Wah-wah-wah

First off if nothing else you can use short range time travel as a strategic weapon. Send explosives into the future on the predicted flight path of an ISD to explode *inside* the sheilds. Or is that still "avoiding the battle"?

Or we could go with other fun tricks ... like deploying minefeilds into the future at several different times. Even if the Imps manage to clear said minefeild ... another will come forward in time.

Or you can make the ultimate supply depot. Send the supplies into the future so you can pick them up when you will need them ... but they cannot be raided in the meantime.

All of this is using time travel for DIRECT CONFLICT and avoids *all* the issues with spawning a new universe and casuality loops.

There is nothing about the weaking of the Imperals I have a problem with but the fact is that the Issue is so unclear(Is it Multiple Time-Lines or just one which can be altered under-certian circumstances?)
Really? Exactly how unclear is it? The advanced feddies have evidenced the ability to travel into the past and effect change. We can black-box the whole methodology question and just look at what it *does*. In this case how time travel occurs is immaterial, only what is accomplished matters. So the real question is does time travel always spawn a new universe or is it possible for it to have effect within the same timeline.

If the former then yes it would be avoiding the fight. If the latter then IT'S A VIABLE STRATEGIC WEAPON. Some advocate the idea that time travel always spins off a new universe, however this means that you have the Defiant creating a new universe whilst sitting on its ass; a change in universe perspective for now apparant reason; and still have no way of explaining the "Cause and Effect Scenario". Now maybe I'm missing something but the hypothesis that the "original" timeline actually changes unless some form of sheild exists seems to fit all the data.

IE Inculding Time-Travel as a weapon is like saying what if we disabled all the Targeting computers, placed them on manual and got the crews on both sides.. reaaaaaaaaaaallly drunk, its just not possible to have a debate with that many unknows
Really and how many unknowns are there? The maximum velocity of every ship in question? Yes that's unknown. The firepower of every ship in question? Again unknown. The availibility and potential use of biological weapons? Again unknown. Sure one can derive bounds based on assumptions, but inherently these things are unknown.

Or compare the situation to say astrophysics. The nature of the universe (closed or open) is unknown, the global curvature of space is unknown (we have *some* clue about the local curvature and can make intelligent guesses about global curvature given the standard assumptions), the number of dimensions is unknown. Get over it; you can deal with unkowns easily ... blackbox the mechanism and look at the observed effects.

In a nutshell, that's why the 29th century Feddies can't use time travel to stop the Empire. Palpatine and Vader can both sense Feddie assassins trying to kill them (and I pity the poor man who actually tries to assassinate either one in person.) Go further back and you don't just have two Sith to deal with, you also have several thousand Jedi capable of sensing your intent to cause harm or who foresee damage caused by sabotage. Force powers are pretty common in the Star Wars galaxy... from what I remember you'd easily have to go back 10,000 years or more to find a time before the Jedi Knights existed.
Good let them sense. Just take the following steps:
1. Find a time when they were in the open and availible for transport.
2. Time travel in over their heads and transport.
3. Scrub the buffers with them still inside.

Good bye Palpy.

Alternatively just wait until he's somewhere with no sheilding and launch a multimegatonne torp at his position. Jedi powers vs multimegatonne blast ... hmm tough choice.

Also, look at this possible chain of events: the 29th century Federation learns of the Empire's intent to invade and sends assassins back to kill Palpatine. The assassins fail and Palpatine learns of the Federation's existance, and the wormhole connecting the two galaxies. To the Empire, the Federation's attempt on the Emperor's life will seem like a cowardly and unprovoked act of terror. What does the Empire do? You guessed it: invade the 24th century Federation, who have no idea where this "Galactic Empire" came from and why they're so intent on flattening the Federation like a pancake. A few ragtag refugees flee the devastation, in 500 years becoming the 29th century Feds, who go back to stop the Empire from forming... (repeat chain of events ad nauseum.)
Only if your assassins are rank stupid. When travelling in your own past you have to worry about not screwing up the events that lead to your society. When dicking with the SW galaxy this does not apply because the two galaxies don't interact in the past.

While nuking a small planet might, just might have some bad consequences for the timeline (i.e. the Federation ceases to exist) ... nuking a small world (i.e. Naboo) would not effect Feddy history at all.

Um they were transported to an alternate timeline where they didn't crash. The defiant from that timeline was transported to yet ANOTHER alternate timeline. You see, since the realm of possibilitys are infinite, you could end up in a world that for all intents and purproses is nearly an exact copy of the one you left.
And WHY would they be transported there? Mystical pink unicorns having fun?

Face the facts. The defiant did not travel back in time. Odo programmed it *not* to go back through the <technobabble> so you are having it placed into another universe FOR THE DAMN BLOODY HELL OF IT.

No, the defiant in the other timeline may have hit the anomaly, and either crash landed founding the colony in an alternate timeline, or again another odo may have fixed its trajectory as well sending it into yet ANOTHER timeline.
Your burden of proof. Odo programmed the ship to *not* go through the anomaly. He has no motive to send them to another timeline. Either offer some evidence that they did actually move to an alternate universe or shut up.

Whenever Feds time travel they ASSUME they are somehow protected from the changes because of some technobabular excuse, when in reality they are from a different universe. Otherwise, anytime they beamed off their ship they would cease to exist.
First off show us an *inkling* of evidence suggesting this would be the case. Second off suppose ... just suppose ... that corrections to the timeline are waves which propogate through space and time. Once the wave propogates past you ... you are fine. Gee isn't this *exactly* what Voyager showed? Or did that little detail pass over your head? I mean why do we only enter these new universes following some short of shockwave:
http://www.startrek.com/library/media_VOY.asp?id=112648
http://www.startrek.com/library/media_VOY.asp?id=112651
http://www.startrek.com/library/media_VOY.asp?id=112663

Remind me again why you would see a "shockwave" propogating through space time if you split off new universes?

Normally when one approaches a new phenomena the correct procedure is to make hypothesi and check them against the data. Events which are not explained by a given theory or worse directly against a given theory normally count against it.

Of course we could take Bean's route and just punt the whole topic because it "avoids the whole fight" (of course the "logical position" as per Lord Wong is for the Feddis to surrender and avoid the whole fight).

[Mr Bean]

Moved back to the other Sci-Fi section

[Eframepilot]

Wrong, a cloaked ship might've always been there.
If it didn't interact with anything, if nobody saw it, it'd change nothing, it's presence would be predestination.

Since we have no way of knowing whether it was there, we have no way of knowing if its presence is a change or predestination. It's a bit of a dead end.
But it's really irrelevant since the Future Feds have so much experience with time travel that they couldn't possibly help but notice that anyone who attempts to change time vanishes without a trace. Hell, they're fighting a Temporal Cold War with another faction. If changing the timeline just shunted you into another existing timeline, the Future Feds would never have even noticed the changed Suliban Cabal's existence. A Temporal Cold War could not occur if the participants vanished every time they made a move.

(snip)

All they want is no Empire. Any random outcome OTHER than an Empire is just fine.

Even if it results in an Uber-Empire?

Obviously I included Uber-Empires under the outcome of Empires. But can you really claim that the Empire is so inevitable that any change is likely to fail to prevent it or create a worse Empire? You know how much trouble Palpatine went to. How could anyone else engineer the same thing? There aren't any other Sith, and the Jedi would stop anyone less capable than Darth Sidious.

Oh come on! This is so oversimplified I'm not even going to bother responding.

Then how about what Tharkun proposed? Nuking Theed and the rest of Naboo when Palpatine is present would be easy. Naboo had no defenses before TPM (source: SW II:ICS). It MIGHT miss Maul, but so what? He isn't going to found the Empire by himself. He has no political position and lacks the subtlety to manipulate the Jedi and Senate. The best he can do is keep hiding and preserve the Sith for another thousand years, after which they MIGHT be able to try again. But that's so far in the future it doesn't matter. Without Palpatine there is no foreseeable way for the Empire to arise.

[Master of Ossus]

Time Travel IS a Cop-Out, Just like saying the Federation will be saved by Q, Just like saying that the Feds could load eveyone in a huge ship and fly away, Just like saying well it's all just Fiction, Time-Travel IS a Cop-out, Its a method of avoiding the Fight altogther

Just like saying that Imps never have to fight feddies on a battle of their own choosing, just like saying the galaxy gun can kill any big threat against the empire.

Terrible comparison. The Empire would never have to fight a battle against the Federation on Federation terms because of their astonishing speed advantage. It would allow any ship that was in trouble to escape, and it would allow reinforcements from the Empire to move much more quickly than those of the Federation.

And frankly avoiding a fight is normally considered a GOOD THING, if you win with minimal loss of life and low chance of failure ... who WOULDN'T do it?

It is not considered a good thing in war when you are on the defensive, or when you are on the offensive and are trying to destroy your enemy's ability to fight. The point is that the Empire can attack whenever and however it likes. The Federation can only match by moving their fleets to defend a few planets or important locations. They cannot hope to win a war of maneuvering with the Empire. Was the Iraqi inability to engage in a decisive battle with Coalition forces a "good thing" in the Gulf War? Only if you're in the Coalition. Morally it is generally considered better than war, but if the other side pushes too far then sometimes war is inevitable and correct.

Also, why doesn't the Federation ever use this ability for something like SAVING THE COLONY. Clearly they don't give a damn about people's lives in the future. Also note how Daniels was more concerned with the monument than the people.

Its no different than *NUCLEAR BOMBS*. Go to any military strategist and say could the US defeat the USSR at the height of the cold war, and see *exactly* how long it takes for nuclear weapons to crop up. What do nukes do? They avoid the fight. When both sides suffer multimillion casualties, huge losses in infrastructure, and ever rising death tolls the fight is MOOT. Its grossly negligent to ignore things WMD's because they "avoid the fight".

Incorrect, nuclear weapons are a valid part of "the fight." They are not a method of avoiding it, but a by-product of the fight.

don't care about any of the other uses for time travel, anywhere from doing battles over agian to the greatest Intel assest in existance to accidnelty cauing a parodox and destroying everything, Its not relevent, Its a cop out, If you wish to discuss this in any way BESIDES a veries debate, I'd be happy to split it off into the Other Sci-Fi forum

Wah-wah-wah

Demonstrate that the 29th century, NON-EXISTENT UFP has the ability to use time travel to combat the Empire. Wah-wah-wah, you can't do it, so you are whining that we called it a cop-out (which it is), without actually showing that it would be successful.

First off if nothing else you can use short range time travel as a strategic weapon. Send explosives into the future on the predicted flight path of an ISD to explode *inside* the sheilds. Or is that still "avoiding the battle"?

Or we could go with other fun tricks ... like deploying minefeilds into the future at several different times. Even if the Imps manage to clear said minefeild ... another will come forward in time.

Demonstrate that they have this ability. You use this tactic of thinking of something they could do if they had a very advanced method of time travel, but then you can never provide any evidence, whatsoever, that they can actually pull this off.

Or you can make the ultimate supply depot. Send the supplies into the future so you can pick them up when you will need them ... but they cannot be raided in the meantime.

This is getting old. Why haven't they done this, already, if they can? Where is the evidence that this is remotely within their ability to perform.

All of this is using time travel for DIRECT CONFLICT and avoids *all* the issues with spawning a new universe and casuality loops.

Oh, good. The non-existent Federation is engaging the Empire in a battle it cannot hope to win.

There is nothing about the weaking of the Imperals I have a problem with but the fact is that the Issue is so unclear(Is it Multiple Time-Lines or just one which can be altered under-certian circumstances?)
Really? Exactly how unclear is it? The advanced feddies have evidenced the ability to travel into the past and effect change. We can black-box the whole methodology question and just look at what it *does*. In this case how time travel occurs is immaterial, only what is accomplished matters. So the real question is does time travel always spawn a new universe or is it possible for it to have effect within the same timeline.

It's actually pretty clear that the majority of time-travel incidents in ST have multiple universes.

If the former then yes it would be avoiding the fight. If the latter then IT'S A VIABLE STRATEGIC WEAPON. Some advocate the idea that time travel always spins off a new universe, however this means that you have the Defiant creating a new universe whilst sitting on its ass; a change in universe perspective for now apparant reason; and still have no way of explaining the "Cause and Effect Scenario". Now maybe I'm missing something but the hypothesis that the "original" timeline actually changes unless some form of sheild exists seems to fit all the data.

So? The non-existent Federation has a weapon that does it absolutely no good. Even with this weapon they have no chance against the Empire.

IE Inculding Time-Travel as a weapon is like saying what if we disabled all the Targeting computers, placed them on manual and got the crews on both sides.. reaaaaaaaaaaallly drunk, its just not possible to have a debate with that many unknows
Really and how many unknowns are there? The maximum velocity of every ship in question? Yes that's unknown. The firepower of every ship in question? Again unknown. The availibility and potential use of biological weapons? Again unknown. Sure one can derive bounds based on assumptions, but inherently these things are unknown.

There are lots of unknowns, but the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the Federation can compete with the Empire on any of these points.

Or compare the situation to say astrophysics. The nature of the universe (closed or open) is unknown, the global curvature of space is unknown (we have *some* clue about the local curvature and can make intelligent guesses about global curvature given the standard assumptions), the number of dimensions is unknown. Get over it; you can deal with unkowns easily ... blackbox the mechanism and look at the observed effects.

I really cannot follow what you are trying to say, here. We know that the universe is closed. We know about local curvatures of the universe, and from those we can extrapolate the curvature of all of space from that. So? We cannot extrapolate any advanced weapons that the future "Federation" will have, because their technological improvement appears so limited from TOS to DS9 and Voyager.

In a nutshell, that's why the 29th century Feddies can't use time travel to stop the Empire. Palpatine and Vader can both sense Feddie assassins trying to kill them (and I pity the poor man who actually tries to assassinate either one in person.) Go further back and you don't just have two Sith to deal with, you also have several thousand Jedi capable of sensing your intent to cause harm or who foresee damage caused by sabotage. Force powers are pretty common in the Star Wars galaxy... from what I remember you'd easily have to go back 10,000 years or more to find a time before the Jedi Knights existed.
Good let them sense. Just take the following steps:
1. Find a time when they were in the open and availible for transport.
2. Time travel in over their heads and transport.
3. Scrub the buffers with them still inside.

Time travel over with a ship how? You assume that they can easily go back thousands of years, and then you create another tactic based on this assumption. Prove that ST has the capability of doing this.

Good bye Palpy.[/quote]

Bye.

Alternatively just wait until he's somewhere with no sheilding and launch a multimegatonne torp at his position. Jedi powers vs multimegatonne blast ... hmm tough choice.

Jedi have already survived such blasts (ref. I, Jedi). In any case, you are inventing another tactic without any evidence of its viability.

Also, look at this possible chain of events: the 29th century Federation learns of the Empire's intent to invade and sends assassins back to kill Palpatine. The assassins fail and Palpatine learns of the Federation's existance, and the wormhole connecting the two galaxies. To the Empire, the Federation's attempt on the Emperor's life will seem like a cowardly and unprovoked act of terror. What does the Empire do? You guessed it: invade the 24th century Federation, who have no idea where this "Galactic Empire" came from and why they're so intent on flattening the Federation like a pancake. A few ragtag refugees flee the devastation, in 500 years becoming the 29th century Feds, who go back to stop the Empire from forming... (repeat chain of events ad nauseum.)
Only if your assassins are rank stupid. When travelling in your own past you have to worry about not screwing up the events that lead to your society. When dicking with the SW galaxy this does not apply because the two galaxies don't interact in the past.

While nuking a small planet might, just might have some bad consequences for the timeline (i.e. the Federation ceases to exist) ... nuking a small world (i.e. Naboo) would not effect Feddy history at all.

Okie dokey. So nuking the planet (note the assumed viability and capability of this) would not disrupt anything, even though Naboo is the capital of the sector? Are you saying that the OR or the Empire totally ignores planets under its jurisdiction? Provide an example of this. They seem to respond quite quickly to problems on their planets, sometimes even sending an entire Sector Fleet to deal with issues on a particular world.

[rest of message snipped, because I really don't care about anything else that was said.]

[Evil Jerk]

Wrong, a cloaked ship might've always been there.
If it didn't interact with anything, if nobody saw it, it'd change nothing, it's presence would be predestination.

Since we have no way of knowing whether it was there, we have no way of knowing if its presence is a change or predestination. It's a bit of a dead end.
But it's really irrelevant since the Future Feds have so much experience with time travel that they couldn't possibly help but notice that anyone who attempts to change time vanishes without a trace. Hell, they're fighting a Temporal Cold War with another faction. If changing the timeline just shunted you into another existing timeline, the Future Feds would never have even noticed the changed Suliban Cabal's existence. A Temporal Cold War could not occur if the participants vanished every time they made a move.

Unless those observers happen to be operating from temporal-shielded buildings and installations, which they appear to do, which means that they can be dragged along the alternate timelines just like the traveller.

(snip)

All they want is no Empire. Any random outcome OTHER than an Empire is just fine.

Even if it results in an Uber-Empire?

Obviously I included Uber-Empires under the outcome of Empires. But can you really claim that the Empire is so inevitable that any change is likely to fail to prevent it or create a worse Empire? You know how much trouble Palpatine went to. How could anyone else engineer the same thing? There aren't any other Sith, and the Jedi would stop anyone less capable than Darth Sidious.[/quote]

Why not? The problems were already there, Palpatine just helped things along, but ineviditabley the Seperatists would make themselves known, and any number of things could happen. Good or bad.

Oh come on! This is so oversimplified I'm not even going to bother responding.

Then how about what Tharkun proposed? Nuking Theed and the rest of Naboo when Palpatine is present would be easy. Naboo had no defenses before TPM (source: SW II:ICS). It MIGHT miss Maul, but so what? He isn't going to found the Empire by himself. He has no political position and lacks the subtlety to manipulate the Jedi and Senate. The best he can do is keep hiding and preserve the Sith for another thousand years, after which they MIGHT be able to try again. But that's so far in the future it doesn't matter. Without Palpatine there is no foreseeable way for the Empire to arise.[/quote]

How will they know his itenerary? Where he lives? What he'll do? If it's the right Palpatine?
These take many many many questions and tons of research, they can't simply give them a name and say "hop to it", that's naive.

And it's still a cop-out anyway.

[Evil Jerk]

Oh yes, and I like how you think the 29th century Federation will suddenly grow the balls to be able and willing to perform acts of temporal genocide just in case they might get what they want, even though all they've ever done is try to STOP temporal changes, whether they think it's a solid timeline or not.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Why are some people assuming that this is after the Empire invades the ST galaxy?

Obviously if they did invade the 24C there would be NO 29C UFP to fight.