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Spanky The Dolphin wrote:No, the whole universe is.

It makes more sense since a divergence would have to involve time travel, anyway. Plus it isn't Earth-centric, considering that other species besides Humans are effected.

but the vulcans aren't (maybe that's cause of the whole logic thing.)
same with pretty much every other race

Have you even seen the DS9 episodes? It's all over the place.

Okay, maybe it is a Human-only thing. But I don't think it's a divergence.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:No, the whole universe is.

Which is sort of a metaphysical argument, as it presumes there actual is such a thing as a balance of good and evil inherent in the universe itself, rather than good and evil just being ways of categorizing human actions.

It makes more sense since a divergence would have to involve time travel, anyway.

How so? How does "in the Mirror Universe the cosmic balance is skewed toward evil" make more sense than "something different happened in the history of Earth leading to the TE instead of the Federation." If anything it seems shakier to me as it relies on metaphysical assumptions about the universe actually having an inherent balance of good and evil, instead of those just being ways that humans behave.

That episode defines the phrase "parody of itself". The actors must have loved hamming it up being evil bad guys, but where were the goatees?

If we see the Mirror Universe as one aspect of the multiverse theory, there's no way we can actually pinpoint where the divergence happened. According to theory, any decision might set off a branch. Let's say if you arrive at a fork in the road, you have the decision of left and right you actually go into both paths, each in newly dreated divergent but parallel universes.

Every moment in time, you'll have these divergences... how many divergences would you have from the Big Bang? Lots. Which divergences would create the Mirror Universe? We'll never know because we don't know what factors contributed to humans acting hammy and the creation of the Terran Empire. Plus, there might be thousands, millions, or infinite number of universes that look like the Terran Empire with minor alterations.

Even when there is a crossover between regular Trek universe and its mirror, there's no guarantee it's the same mirror universe*. Additionally, even in the 42 minutes running time onscreen where they enter the mirror universe, all the things they do, all the decisions they made, would probably create dozens more branches of the multiverse, according to the the theory.


*unless there's a story behind it which somehow binds the two distinct parallel universes together, by some act of plot. You know, metaphysical, "it's both their destiny" thing.

One thing that I assume for the Mirror Universe is that the Borg's attempt to stop First Contact never happened, although that has nothing to do with any possible original divergence.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:One thing that I assume for the Mirror Universe is that the Borg's attempt to stop First Contact never happened, although that has nothing to do with any possible original divergence.

That would be consistant with the established Mirror Universe episodes, and the continued existance of Earth in the DS9 MU eps.

Sephirius wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:No, the whole universe is.

It makes more sense since a divergence would have to involve time travel, anyway. Plus it isn't Earth-centric, considering that other species besides Humans are effected.

but the vulcans aren't (maybe that's cause of the whole logic thing.)
same with pretty much every other race

How does a diverging timeline on Earth make Phlox a sadist, Quark a hero who smuggles slaves to freedom, and Kira bisexual?

There simply isn't a rational explanation for the Mirror Universe. Any change in the timeline that would cause it to swerve that far off course from the canon Trek timeline that early would also prevent the main characters' counterparts from being born. And there's no rational reason for a completely independent parallel universe to somehow create a mirrored version of individuals who either cross between universes or are well known to those who cross between universes. The MU is one of those things where you throw up your hands and say, "Who the fuck knows?" and just enjoy the antics.

DS9, in my opinion, made a mistake not keeping the Terran Empire around. Part of the joy of the MU episodes is seeing the Federation act like a big bunch of assholes, which you can't do if they're slaves. Oooh, evil Klingons and Cardassians. Like we haven't seen those before.

Morilore wrote:

Frankly I think T'Pul would have rolled her eyes and corrected him saying 'Three Vulcans in an unarmed scout ship isn't much of an invasino force' or something. She had no problems snapping back at him when he called her a slave afterall. And there is no indicator at all that the Vulcans are any kind of subservent race either in this episode or in Mirror Mirror.

Was T'Pol alive back then? Perhaps she simply has learned to deal with Imperial historical whitewashing.

T'pol is in her sixties (her exact age was given in one season 3 episode, but I forget what it was.) First Contact was about 90 years before Enterprise. She wasn't born yet.

Kira bisexual

What?! Damn, I'm going to check the TV for DS9 reruns from now on.

Lone_Prodigy wrote:

Kira bisexual

What?! Damn, I'm going to check the TV for DS9 reruns from now on.

The Mirror Universe Kira is bi

If the TNG novel that has to do with the mirror universe is to be taken with any credit, the change in humanity occured long ago. Picard was reading through a collection of evil Picard's books and noted that the books began to change, the oldest appeared normal, but the younger they were, the more radical they became.

Superman wrote:Too bad I missed this. I want to see them in TOS uniforms. Is that next week?

Yes. This week so far the people in TOS uniforms were dead people.

but where were the goatees

There's one leaked image showing who got the goatee - Soval, who's still alive in the MU

Bounty wrote:There's one leaked image showing who got the goatee - Soval, who's still alive in the MU

He's still alive in the Regular Universe. It was Forest who died to save him.

MariusRoi wrote:

Bounty wrote:There's one leaked image showing who got the goatee - Soval, who's still alive in the MU

He's still alive in the Regular Universe. It was Forest who died to save him.

Whoopsie.

Anyway, here's the pic (spoiler warning for part II, sort of)

CONNIES KICK ASS!!!!!

SQUEE!!!

Looks like the split was in ancient history, Phlox mentioned that classical lit was different.

Trogdor wrote:Looks like the split was in ancient history, Phlox mentioned that classical lit was different.

And Archer said that the Empire was around for centuries

Oy, again with the split...

So Archer will be the first President of the UFP, this episode confirms

^Just listening to the audio commentary, apparently in the scene where they are reading about themselves in our universe on the Defiant, the text shows what Archer did after the decommissioning of the Enterprise, I guess tihs is the 'deifying' of him we get in the final episode.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Oy, again with the split...

If it helps, think of it more of a deviation than a split.

The many worlds FACT (as portrayed in TNG) states that since there are infinite universes, there will be some that difer in on the slightest of way (i.e. a bug gets squashed in one and not another), while others can difer in very drastic ways.

That's pretty much exactly what I've been arguing for in this thread: that the Mirror Universe is not a deviation from the main timeline but is rather a seperate, parallel universe.