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Cykeisme wrote:

Stuart Mackey wrote:

Cykeisme wrote:Referring to which, Dark Lord or the ANH novelization?

Sorry, ANH Novelisation.

Yarrr, I don't have the book with me.

Roughly, it describes Obi-Wan's vision clouding, his eyes looking bleary, sweat beading on his forehead, and Vader coinciding by telling him that his powers were weak.
Anyone have a copy of ANH on hand to provide a quote?

I know the pasage and can confirm it exists...

ANH Novel, omnibus, page 146 wrote: Several minutes followed as the two men remained staring at each other, as if waiting for some proper, as yet unspoken signal.
Kenobi blinked once, shook his head, and tried to clear his eyes, which had begun to water slightly. Sweat beaded up on his forehead, and his eyes fluttered again.
"Your Powers are weak", Vader noted emotionlessly....

Essentialy the book does not say that it is an effect of the force..Just that Obi lost a staring contest.

Hmm, you may be right.

Kenobi blinked once, shook his head, and tried to clear his eyes, which had begun to water slightly. Sweat beaded up on his forehead, and his eyes fluttered again.

Pure opinion, but doesn't that seem a bit over-eloquent for a description of a man simply losing a staring match given the context (one of the last two Jedi Knights, who are the extinct order of guardians of peace in the galaxy, facing down an evil Sith Lord in a duel to the death aboard a battle station with the power to destroy an entire planet)?

Cykeisme wrote:Hmm, you may be right.

Kenobi blinked once, shook his head, and tried to clear his eyes, which had begun to water slightly. Sweat beaded up on his forehead, and his eyes fluttered again.

Pure opinion, but doesn't that seem a bit over-eloquent for a description of a man simply losing a staring match given the context snip?

The fact of the matter is that you have to take it at face value. The book does not say that Vader is playing silly buggers with the force, thats all there is to it.

There is also the possibility that Force-powered mind-screwing is considered standard for duels. You expect your opponent to try to use the Force to supress your precognition, screw with your mind and mess with your senses. Obi-Wan did spend the last 20 or so years doing basically nothing, so it's safe to assume that some of his skills were rusty by the time of his duel on the Death Star. And remember that the last time Vader and Ben tangled, Vader lost his last three limbs, the ability to breath on his own, his confidence in his powers and his self-esteem. All that would make him rather wary of dueling Kenobi again.

And the idea that Vader is the only person growing in power durning the OT is just fraking absurd. Change is what people do as they age. It's how some cultures measure a lifespan, even. The idea that Palpy had reached some sort of zenith in Sith learning and Force strength is silly. Then saying that Vader's power hasn't changed or even atrophied compared to his Master is also stupid. They both would grow and learn as time passes. Even if its little things that learned; like a more efficent way of choking a guy or a less tiring way of looking scary, there's still grown happening. Frak, even Luke went from winey, half-trained farmboy to respectfully badass Jedi Knight in under a year.

Mastery over the Force could be measured best by taking into account skill in using the Force, knowledge of Force techinques, experience in combat situations, and lastly, raw power. Admittedly, raw power can often give the same results as skill and experience, but not for long. Look at Ep.II's duel between Anakin and Dooku. The novel states that Dooku used Force walls to impede Anakin's movement and that Anakin picked up the trick and started using it almost immediately. But it also states that Anakin was using raw power to accomplish what Dooku was doing with skill. Creating Force walls tired Anakin out much quicker than Dooku because Dooku wasn't 'bulling through' the process and was expending himself less.

Darth Kalgarath wrote:Obi-Wan did spend the last 20 or so years doing basically nothing, so it's safe to assume that some of his skills were rusty by the time of his duel on the Death Star.

His lightsaber skills may have been rusty but...

The last 20 years or so he definately wasn't doing nothing. He was meditating and possibly expanded upon his Force powers. Also, he might have been "training" with his old Master Qui-Gon. During the fight in Episode III, Vader's and Obi-Wan's Force powers were equal, if maybe Obi-Wan's more so.

I do not see how Obi-Wan could have lost that "staring contest" with Vader if he had been training most of the time.

I do not see how Obi-Wan could have lost that "staring contest" with Vader if he had been training most of the time.

You just proved your own point wrong.

The novel explicitly states that Obi-Wan lost this "staring contest."
Ergo, he had not been training most of the time that he was on Tatooine.

Doctor Doom wrote:

I do not see how Obi-Wan could have lost that "staring contest" with Vader if he had been training most of the time.

You just proved your own point wrong.

The novel explicitly states that Obi-Wan lost this "staring contest."
Ergo, he had not been training most of the time that he was on Tatooine.

... Or Vader just was more powerful and skilled. Besides, if it's just a staring contest mundane we're talking about, it's hard to beat someone whose face is covered in black mask with no visible eyes for an opponent to stare at and see any difference.

Besides, I doubt that Obi-Wan underwent any combat training; his training most likely focused on the finer aspects of the Force, like that surrendering one's body to the Force and becoming a ghost -trick.

Tiriol wrote: Besides, if it's just a staring contest mundane we're talking about, it's hard to beat someone whose face is covered in black mask with no visible eyes for an opponent to stare at and see any difference.

A-ha! It could not have been a mundane staring contest!


Heh, jk, but seriously, when I read the book I got the idea that they were playing Force games with each other. Stuart is still right though, since it's not explicitly stated, we can't simply assume it is.
Perhaps Obi-Wan got something in his eye?

What was even the point of the "staring contest"? I mean, they are Jedi, not schoolboys.

Perhaps it was a pride issue?

The point would be psycology. Both these guys have a major beef with each other. Obiwan is pissed that Anakin beytayed him and destroyed their Order. Vader is pissed because Kenobi nearly killed them last time it happened. Vader wants the stae off to try and prove he has excelled his old Master and Obiwan wants to win the stare off to prove he won't hold back again if the opportunity arrises to kill Vader.

Yes, but as Tiriol stated, what is the point in staring down someone you can't stare down? How could Obi-Wan have won? Any was of manipulating the Force somehow would have been futile, seeing as obviously Vader was more powerful at the time.

The staredown obviously would have been the method used to determine that Vader was indeed more powerful than Obi-wan.

Darth Yoshi wrote:The staredown obviously would have been the method used to determine that Vader was indeed more powerful than Obi-wan.

Given the dialoge in the novel Vader seems to be trying to unnerve Obi, nothing more.

... Or Vader just was more powerful and skilled. Besides, if it's just a staring contest mundane we're talking about, it's hard to beat someone whose face is covered in black mask with no visible eyes for an opponent to stare at and see any difference.

I didn't make it very clear in my last post, for which I apologize, my that post was not trying to make an argument, but rather ridiculing the logic behind the argument I was refuting. My apologizes, I see now I didn't make that clear enough.