I would not be terribly inclined to the idea. There is a reason why you generally want to deal with everything else first, before hitting the home worlds. If what you desire is allowed, it opens the doors for massive blitzes bypassing entire empires defenses, traffic, sensors, etc and allowing a bare minimum response time. Would you like to set the precedent that hostile ships may fly off to Elysium, and ignore everything in the way, and just pop into the Ouster homeworld without allowing the other systems, colonies, etc, a chance to detect the forces in their own space?
If you went around the trade-lane between Eketrina and Elysium, then yeah. Despite the weeek-long transit time, the first time I'd see your fleet would be when it showed up 20 minutes out from it's target system.
Of course, my spies would report that your fleets have been gone from their bases for 4 or 5 days, I'd start getting ideas about what your plan is
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - )
Thirdfain wrote:Would it be possible, then, to invade a nation's core systems, passing their colony worlds at respectable distances, and avoid detection? (Assuming you avouided the major trade lanes and approached from an unexpected direction?)
-of course, the core system's networks would pick you up on your way in, and they'd have time to react- but your ships wouldn't be detected until they approached the core systems.-
I suppose you could by-pass colonial sensor networks, but remeber, its very possible things like patrols or trade might interfere with such things.
Heck; your fleet might get detected by some smuggler who is hiding out in an asteroid field, and there goes your stealthy approach.
Thirdfain wrote:I disagree, predicting your enemy's goals and preparing for tthe attack beforehand is vital. If you can instantly reinforce all your fleets against any attack, we wind up like in STGOD1, where all fleet battles involve the whole fleet- no splitting or hitting multiple targets, because your enemy can be concentrated against any of your attacks.
I don't think that anyone is talking about instantly reinforcing fleets, point to point travel was smacked down as where point to point gates. No one in the game, can instantly reinforce fleets. However, IF you send a massive fleet through the ENTIRE territory of pepe's nation, as you travel to the homeworld, I see no reason to believe that somehow, your fleet is not detected by the colonies and so on located within the pepe sphere. Nation's have colonies for a reason, and they tend to have massive listening posts, etc, etc. The attacker should have an advantage, but not to the level that you seem to wish.
I would not be terribly inclined to the idea. There is a reason why you generally want to deal with everything else first, before hitting the home worlds. If what you desire is allowed, it opens the doors for massive blitzes bypassing entire empires defenses, traffic, sensors, etc and allowing a bare minimum response time. Would you like to set the precedent that hostile ships may fly off to Elysium, and ignore everything in the way, and just pop into the Ouster homeworld without allowing the other systems, colonies, etc, a chance to detect the forces in their own space?
So, then we DO have national-scale sensor nets; the second you enter a nation's outer reaches, our vessels are detected by the sensor nets of the external worlds.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - )
I would not be terribly inclined to the idea. There is a reason why you generally want to deal with everything else first, before hitting the home worlds. If what you desire is allowed, it opens the doors for massive blitzes bypassing entire empires defenses, traffic, sensors, etc and allowing a bare minimum response time. Would you like to set the precedent that hostile ships may fly off to Elysium, and ignore everything in the way, and just pop into the Ouster homeworld without allowing the other systems, colonies, etc, a chance to detect the forces in their own space?
If you went around the trade-lane between Eketrina and Elysium, then yeah. Despite the weeek-long transit time, the first time I'd see your fleet would be when it showed up 20 minutes out from it's target system.
Of course, my spies would report that your fleets have been gone from their bases for 4 or 5 days, I'd start getting ideas about what your plan is
fair enough with the Ouster bit. thank you for the clarification, I will be certain to note this for the future.
assuming you have the spies in the right places and times. *shrugs*
Massive fleet launches, such as the ones with the supply-train necessary to run operations as far out as Eketrina, would be pretty hard to hide against even the most basic passive espionage. Of course, clever misdirection's an option...
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - )
I would not be terribly inclined to the idea. There is a reason why you generally want to deal with everything else first, before hitting the home worlds. If what you desire is allowed, it opens the doors for massive blitzes bypassing entire empires defenses, traffic, sensors, etc and allowing a bare minimum response time. Would you like to set the precedent that hostile ships may fly off to Elysium, and ignore everything in the way, and just pop into the Ouster homeworld without allowing the other systems, colonies, etc, a chance to detect the forces in their own space?
So, then we DO have national-scale sensor nets; the second you enter a nation's outer reaches, our vessels are detected by the sensor nets of the external worlds.
You can call them what you want Thirdfain, I am not declaring that the nanosecond you enter Veithan space, you will be detected. If you think so, that is your problem not mine. However, you better fucking believe that if you are waltzing through my space, all quiet like, the probability that I will detect your forces BEFORE they make it to Veitha III are pretty fucking good. And when I say "before" I mean significantly before, not when you happen to sneak all the way to the edges of the Veitha system.
Thirdfain wrote:I disagree, predicting your enemy's goals and preparing for tthe attack beforehand is vital. If you can instantly reinforce all your fleets against any attack, we wind up like in STGOD1, where all fleet battles involve the whole fleet- no splitting or hitting multiple targets, because your enemy can be concentrated against any of your attacks.
It's the defender bonus. You are attacking someone's home terf. Now you could be trixie and make him think you are attacking in multiple places. Your enemy wouldn't know how big of a fleet is charging them just that "there is a big sensor blip heading for <system>". That big sensor blip could be 5 ships spread apart well; or an entire fleet flying close.
It's quite fair to send ships to one planet to divert attention so the bulk of your fleet can go off raping colony worlds.
Thirdfain wrote:So, then we DO have national-scale sensor nets; the second you enter a nation's outer reaches, our vessels are detected by the sensor nets of the external worlds.
I would say that the net simply gets tighter and tighter as you approach the core systems, such that you can hit the colonies with the element of surprise, but if you try to scoot for the homeworld then there's an ever-increasing probability of detection long before you get there.
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
you are espousing Option B- national-scale sensor nets which are strategic rather than tactical.
I am not declaring that the nanosecond you enter Veithan space, you will be detected.
That is effectively what you are espousing- a fleet entering Veithan space would be detected far from it's intended target, unless the target was a border colony.
How bout this- the external worlds would detect the inccoming ships, but they'd be faint contacts at the edge of effective rangge. They'd be able to detect that the fleets are moviong through the territory and heading for the central systems, but information like which systems in particular are being targetted would not be an option based on long-distance EW nets alone.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - )
I would say that the net simply gets tighter and tighter as you approach the core systems, such that you can hit the colonies with the element of surprise, but if you try to scoot for the homeworld then there's an ever-increasing probability of detection long before you get there.
Cool beans, I accept.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - )
Well, now we have a new problem. I don't know how much level of detail is going to be desired here, but if need be I can easily create a 3D representation of the Consortium (and nearby) systems. In fact, I think it would be fun, since I have the tools, I can also go into detail with the massive number of orbital colonies and even defense networks. However, I don't think everyone wants to do that, or has the means to, and while I don't mind making the international map (which will be updated shortly), I'm not about to start making everyone's regional maps just for grins and giggles.
I will admit, space is vast. Vastly vast. Vastness beyond your reckoning of vastly vast vastisitude. Sneaking in between systems is all well and good, but every nation is going to try and cover their weak spots as best they can, through limited sensor net coverage of dead space areas.
I would say that anyone simply charging in blindly would have a high chance of setting off such measures, making it essentially a "National" bubble. However, if one has considerable intel on where such "tripwires" were, they could conceivably bypass them and the colonies to allow for a strike at the core worlds.
Perhaps this would be an acceptable compromise?
Do not meddle in the affairs of insomniacs, for they are cranky and can do things to you while you sleep. The Realm of Confusion
"Every time you talk about Teal'c, I keep imagining Thor's ass. Thank you very much for that, you fucking fucker." -Marcao SG-14: Because in some cases, "Recon" means "Blow up a fucking planet or die trying." SilCore Wiki! Come take a look!
Thirdfain wrote:How bout this- the external worlds would detect the inccoming ships, but they'd be faint contacts at the edge of effective rangge. They'd be able to detect that the fleets are moviong through the territory and heading for the central systems, but information like which systems in particular are being targetted would not be an option based on long-distance EW nets alone.
This is basically how I think it should be done, maybe even a little less precise out at the edges.
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
Thirdfain wrote:So, then we DO have national-scale sensor nets; the second you enter a nation's outer reaches, our vessels are detected by the sensor nets of the external worlds.
I would say that the net simply gets tighter and tighter as you approach the core systems, such that you can hit the colonies with the element of surprise, but if you try to scoot for the homeworld then there's an ever-increasing probability of detection long before you get there.
this is a perfectly good compromise for me as is Hotfoot's suggestion as well. Personally, a good fusion of the two appeals to me the most, but we can deal with that as it comes.
Get me if I'm wrong; but central systems, being "central" would be close enough to each other that it would hardly matter which was the target; the time it'd take to reposition fleets would be rather low.
It's still an hour or so between central worlds. Of course, with their heavy shields, a central world can hold off any single-nation attack fleet for easily that long for reinforccements to arrive.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - )
InnocentBystander wrote:Get me if I'm wrong; but central systems, being "central" would be close enough to each other that it would hardly matter which was the target; the time it'd take to reposition fleets would be rather low.
As I understand it, transit times between Core Worlds should be relatively low. These are the heart of star nations, and individual core systems are likely stellar neighbors for the most part. There may be some core worlds, that are placed far from the others, in which case the transit time may be significant. I imagine most star nations, have a heavily populated center which radiates outward. However, things may very well be different case in point. If the United States were a star nation, New York City would certainly be a core area due to population size. But it would be on the edges of the nation, and thus in a position more akin to a colony.
Errr, forget that happened, I was cleaning it up and adding shit in the BBS engine, but hit "post" instead of "Previw" by accident, just cut it out. That's not even a final version. Forget about that.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - )
Marcao wrote:I don't think that anyone is talking about instantly reinforcing fleets, point to point travel was smacked down as where point to point gates.
Not entirely true, though.
Back in the eeeeearly beginning it was decided that small p-2- devices that only transport people, and small cargo, are allowed.
But nothing to move ships or the like with...
Great Dolphin Conspiracy - Chatter box
"Implications: we have been intercepted deliberately by a means unknown, for a purpose unknown, and transferred to a place unknown by a form of intelligence unknown. Apart from the unknown, everything is obvious." ZORAC GALE Force Euro Wimp Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
Well, as my nation is rather isolationistic, slightly paranoid and wary of foreigners, our sensor net would be indeed thick. Adding fact that my territory is quite dense and not going for vastness, and that the planets I inhabit are already on the outer portion of a star system, the net would indeed be deep.
Great Dolphin Conspiracy - Chatter box
"Implications: we have been intercepted deliberately by a means unknown, for a purpose unknown, and transferred to a place unknown by a form of intelligence unknown. Apart from the unknown, everything is obvious." ZORAC GALE Force Euro Wimp Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
Dahak wrote:Well, as my nation is rather isolationistic, slightly paranoid and wary of foreigners, our sensor net would be indeed thick. Adding fact that my territory is quite dense and not going for vastness, and that the planets I inhabit are already on the outer portion of a star system, the net would indeed be deep.
And expensive, if you're talking comprehensive EW sensor nets multiple lightyears out. Do you realize how vast an undertaking that would be?
My cluster is patrolled by destroyers and unmanned drones, but the entire border is not covered at all times. You have a fair chance of being picked up by a patrol, but it's hardly a guaranteed thing. The more ships you're moving, though, the easier I think it'd be. *Shakes my d100.*
