StarDestroyer.Net BBS

ray245 wrote: 2018-03-01 08:08pmNarratively, putting regular grunts as main characters doesn't work when the rest of the cast are all high ranking commanders and generals. The grunt is effectively nothing more than someone to be ordered around by the rest of the main cast, making them feel a little too subservient.

Is this based on something substantive, or is just another one of your pointless statements?

How did ANH do so well with a farmboy and a rogue working with a princess and a wizard? It's baffling.

Gandalf wrote: 2018-03-02 05:52am

ray245 wrote: 2018-03-01 08:08pmNarratively, putting regular grunts as main characters doesn't work when the rest of the cast are all high ranking commanders and generals. The grunt is effectively nothing more than someone to be ordered around by the rest of the main cast, making them feel a little too subservient.

Is this based on something substantive, or is just another one of your pointless statements?

How often do you see random crew worker as part of a main cast of officers and generals? It's usually TV series that does that because they have the time to actually give a multiple perspective story arcs.

Random crew worker being part of the main cast only works if the overall organisation is small like the resistance. Otherwise, you'll effectively get a cast whose entire job is to follow orders with no actual character development, aka Chewie or the droids.

ray245 wrote: 2018-03-02 06:54am

Gandalf wrote: 2018-03-02 05:52amIs this based on something substantive, or is just another one of your pointless statements?

How often do you see random crew worker as part of a main cast of officers and generals? It's usually TV series that does that because they have the time to actually give a multiple perspective story arcs.

Random crew worker being part of the main cast only works if the overall organisation is small like the resistance. Otherwise, you'll effectively get a cast whose entire job is to follow orders with no actual character development, aka Chewie or the droids.

You said it won't work. I asked why not. You said it hadn't been seen.

But here's some example anyway. Off the top of my head, M*A*S*H had a cast ranging from Corporals to a Colonel. Buffalo Soldiers has a similar range. Not to mention Das Boot.

Gandalf wrote: 2018-03-02 07:14am
You said it won't work. I asked why not. You said it hadn't been seen.

I never said it hasn't been seen. It has work in TV series, but they often have a benefit of a longer running time.

But here's some example anyway. Off the top of my head, M*A*S*H had a cast ranging from Corporals to a Colonel. Buffalo Soldiers has a similar range. Not to mention Das Boot.

MASH is mostly a story from the ground up, as opposed to top down. It's more akin to Rogue One than the main episodic films. Das Boot is a 5 hours long movie with a bunch of people trapped in a submarine.

The OT promoted Luke and Han almost immediately after ANH, by the time of ESB, they are all high-ranking commanders. If you stuck someone as a minor crew worker while the rest of the cast is leading their own band of soldiers, what's the crew worker going to do? How are you going to let the minor crew worker actually have some sort of character arc?

ray245 wrote: 2018-03-02 07:55amI never said it hasn't been seen. It has work in TV series, but they often have a benefit of a longer running time.

When I asked why it won't work, you asked how often it came up.

MASH is mostly a story from the ground up, as opposed to top down. It's more akin to Rogue One than the main episodic films. Das Boot is a 5 hours long movie with a bunch of people trapped in a submarine.

So... they don't count?

The OT promoted Luke and Han almost immediately after ANH, by the time of ESB, they are all high-ranking commanders. If you stuck someone as a minor crew worker while the rest of the cast is leading their own band of soldiers, what's the crew worker going to do? How are you going to let the minor crew worker actually have some sort of character arc?

And their ranks are irrelevant to the plot, considering we barely see then give/take orders, or even interact meaningfully with the Rebel hierarchy.

Gandalf wrote: 2018-03-02 08:47am When I asked why it won't work, you asked how often it came up.

The answer is due limited time.

So... they don't count?

Do you seriously think a 5 hours movie is practical for SW? Or have a main trilogly movie merely be told from the POV of the common soldiers? There is a reason why Rogue One is a spin-off instead of a "main film".

And their ranks are irrelevant to the plot, considering we barely see then give/take orders, or even interact meaningfully with the Rebel hierarchy.

Their ranks did give them the ability to give orders. In ESB, Luke was busy commanding people at Hoth. In ROTJ, Han and Lando are both commanders of their respective units.

What you are proposing is to basically give random commando or X-Wing pilot a proper character arc in ROTJ. That would have either massively lengthened the movie, or create an under-developed sub-plot.

With Rose, we have plenty of people complaining about her sub-plot with Finn being a distraction to the main plot. And those are coming from people who liked TLJ as well.

Not sure I agree it would have fixed the entire movie, but it's an interesting point anyway.

ray245 wrote: 2018-03-02 08:55am

Gandalf wrote: 2018-03-02 08:47am When I asked why it won't work, you asked how often it came up.

The answer is due limited time.

So... they don't count?

Do you seriously think a 5 hours movie is practical for SW? Or have a main trilogly movie merely be told from the POV of the common soldiers? There is a reason why Rogue One is a spin-off instead of a "main film".

I'm proposing a five hour film? Have I forgotten about a post or is your reading comprehension worse than normal?

Lots of films have multiple, intersecting storylines featuring characters who have little interaction. Here's a list of some more acclaimed ones. It's been done before, and done incredibly well.

Their ranks did give them the ability to give orders. In ESB, Luke was busy commanding people at Hoth. In ROTJ, Han and Lando are both commanders of their respective units.

What you are proposing is to basically give random commando or X-Wing pilot a proper character arc in ROTJ. That would have either massively lengthened the movie, or create an under-developed sub-plot.

Wait, where did I propose this?

With Rose, we have plenty of people complaining about her sub-plot with Finn being a distraction to the main plot. And those are coming from people who liked TLJ as well.

People disagree with me!? Holy shit, that's new.

Gandalf wrote: 2018-03-02 09:26am
I'm proposing a five hour film? Have I forgotten about a post or is your reading comprehension worse than normal?

Lots of films have multiple, intersecting storylines featuring characters who have little interaction. Here's a list of some more acclaimed ones. It's been done before, and done incredibly well.

And I didn't say multiple, intersecting storylines is impossible. In fact, that's the plot set-up of ESB and most SW movies. The problem is when you have to give enough attention to a lower ranking personnel without distracting from the main momentum of the story. You need to ensure their story is still relevant to the overarching main plot throughout multiple movies.

Wait, where did I propose this?

You said you wanted a low-ranking personnel to become part of the cast didn't you?

People disagree with me!? Holy shit, that's new.

My point is not about who disagreed with you. My point is the sub-plot that revolves around Rose was seen by many people as the weakest part of the film. Plenty of people found that to be a distraction, so I doubt it's a good creative decision to make more sub-plots that revolves around the lower-ranking members of the rebellion in the main trilogy movie.

A movie about the lower-ranking members of the rebellion should be a stand-alone movie because otherwise you simply don't have the time to give them proper character development. A perspective told from the lower-ranking members would have their own supporting cast, with peers from similar ranks to interact with.

Otherwise, if you stuck a low-ranking member with the cast full of generals and commanders, they'll end up being nothing more than people who are following orders. This kind of scenario does not help with their character development. They will have very little agency.

Again, I am not saying this kind of story is impossible, but these stories will require a massive run-time. LOTR did it, but they are 3-4 hours long movies. Most SW movies tend to be of much shorter duration to maintain the sense of pacing.

ray245 wrote: 2018-03-02 09:39amAnd I didn't say multiple, intersecting storylines is impossible. In fact, that's the plot set-up of ESB and most SW movies. The problem is when you have to give enough attention to a lower ranking personnel without distracting from the main momentum of the story. You need to ensure their story is still relevant to the overarching main plot throughout multiple movies.

And if that regular grunt is a main character in the story...?

You said you wanted a low-ranking personnel to become part of the cast didn't you?

I said that films can work with characters from all walks of life. There can be a place for everything, depending on how you want to make your film. I wasn't advocating going back to alter ROTJ, that film has enough problems.

My point is not about who disagreed with you. My point is the sub-plot that revolves around Rose was seen by many people as the weakest part of the film. Plenty of people found that to be a distraction, so I doubt it's a good creative decision to make more sub-plots that revolves around the lower-ranking members of the rebellion in the main trilogy movie.

A movie about the lower-ranking members of the rebellion should be a stand-alone movie because otherwise you simply don't have the time to give them proper character development. A perspective told from the lower-ranking members would have their own supporting cast, with peers from similar ranks to interact with.

Otherwise, if you stuck a low-ranking member with the cast full of generals and commanders, they'll end up being nothing more than people who are following orders. This kind of scenario does not help with their character development. They will have very little agency.

Again, I am not saying this kind of story is impossible, but these stories will require a massive run-time. LOTR did it, but they are 3-4 hours long movies. Most SW movies tend to be of much shorter duration to maintain the sense of pacing.

Right, so you're just restating your already unsupported point with some sort of appeal to popularity. Look at the list of films to which I linked. Look at how long they are and how large the casts are. Some also had more character development than SW too.

IIRC, you're arguing with a big fan of the prequels so maybe he just likes Star Wars movies that revolve around Jedi Generals with faceless armies of expendable muggles to boss around.

Galvatron wrote: 2018-03-02 10:30am IIRC, you're arguing with a big fan of the prequels so maybe he just likes Star Wars movies that revolve around Jedi Generals with faceless armies of expendable muggles to boss around.

Makes sense.

I don't know how they managed to make TPM so short when there's Jedi Knights, a queen, and then some sort of lowly slaves running around. Truly a pinnacle of film making!

Interesting video on Youtube about the foreshadowing of the Luke reveal:

All 9 Hints Of Luke's Force Projection! Star Wars The Last Jedi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGxuP1KiZ6Y

Now, weather you like the film or hate it, this is an impressive level of attention to detail and continuity, and very subtle foreshadowing, on the part of the film makers. I'd take two main things away from this:

1. Rian Johnson is not an incompetent filmmaker, as some of TLJ's critics seem to be alleging. He is a very, very competent director who knew exactly what he was doing, if this scene is anything to go by. If you don't like what he did, okay. But its very likely that it was a deliberate choice on his part, not a mere blunder or laziness.

2. Again, this film is subtle as hell, and full of misdirection. It is a film that absolutely needs to be viewed carefully, and probably more than once. While its constant misdirection and subversions can be irritating, and its understandable that many fans would misunderstand the film, its a shame that so many people have reacted to it with knee-jerk anger.

I'd also note that they left out the most obvious hint: Luke is very careful never to let Kylo actually make contact with him or his light saber. Although there does seem to be a contradiction here, in that he does touch Leia during their meeting earlier in the scene, and give her that memento of Han's. I would speculate, therefore, that Leia was probably aware that Luke was an illusion before he went out to face Kylo Ren, though it is never stated overtly in the film.

Galvatron wrote: 2018-03-01 09:36pm If they abide by Star Wars tradition, Finn will be a general in the next movie.

Honestly, everyone who's in the Falcon at the end ought to get a promotion, by virtue of being the only people with experience in the Resistance left alive.

Gandalf wrote: 2018-03-02 10:24am And if that regular grunt is a main character in the story...?

It would have shifted focus away from the main plot. The numbered movies are more often than not focusing on key pivotal characters that could change the course of the entire battle with their decisions. The multiple storylines need to converge at the end of the movie. The regular grunt needs to have enough stuff to do that matters in the overall story, while ensuring his/her storyline will intersect with the actions of the higher ranking characters nicely.

Is it impossible? No, but you require such a massive, tightly-written movie that requires planning across the movies. You need something akin to Peter Jackson's LOTR to do that, but I'm not sure 3-4 hours long movies are suitable for SW. And it's easy for such an approach to fall apart, as seen in the Hobbit.

I said that films can work with characters from all walks of life. There can be a place for everything, depending on how you want to make your film. I wasn't advocating going back to alter ROTJ, that film has enough problems.

And I never disagreed with that. I like Rogue One because it tries to focus more on the regular grunts in some way. The problem is there isn't that much of a place for the regular grunt in the numbered movies. Take the overarching plot of ROTJ as the main set-up of your movie. You need to tell a story about Luke defeating Vader and the Emperor, Rebels winning the space battle and a ground battle in Endor. How are you going to fit the story of a regular grunt in such a set-up? More importantly, you need to make sure all those storylines can intersect and converge upon one another by the end of the movie.

You are running the risk of making the movie too bloated if you try and feature a regular grunt as part of the main cast.

Right, so you're just restating your already unsupported point with some sort of appeal to popularity. Look at the list of films to which I linked. Look at how long they are and how large the casts are. Some also had more character development than SW too.

I'm not saying my opinion is right because it's popular, but popularity needs to be taken into account because people have certain expectations on what a SW movie is about.

Yes, other movies managed to create a decent story with a large cast of multiple perspectives, with good character development. My counter-point is that those movies aren't Star Wars movies. They don't need to focus on the struggle over the fate of an entire galaxy.

SW, the numbered movies tend to be about stories that can significantly change the course of the entire galaxy. These means having characters that are pivotal enough in the war, that their individual decisions and actions will have massive ramifications for the entire battle or war effort.

Let's say we have a movie about a regular grunt in WW2. How exactly are you going to tie the story of the regular grunt into a story about the defeat of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan? Yes, you can do a story with multiple perspectives like "The Longest Day", featuring a private all the way to the highest ranking general. But those kinds of stories are more event driven than character driven. Those movies don't work as well in a story about good and evil being able to confront one another face to face.

A numbered SW has always been about good guys marching into the base of the enemy and swinging laser swords at them. They tend to follow myths and legends, with a hero or band heroes almost single-handily defeating the big evil kingdom/empire on their own. A regular grunt that can do that is no longer a regular grunt, They've become a hero. A private that can march into the evil emperor lair and do something to defeat them is unlikely to stay a regular grunt for long.

Yes, ray, we get that you want Star Wars to stay in a very narrow and familiar box.

Anyway, I do not see why it is so hard to have an ordinary grunt in a meaningful role. They don't have to be the star to still have a significant impact on the story- indeed supporting characters are often the most memorable, perhaps because protagonists tend to fit a familiar mold.

And, hell, Rogue One managed to convey the idea (to me at least) that the ordinary rank and file mattered in a single scene, and it was the best damn scene of the movie.

This idea that you need a carefully plotted trilogy to focus on more than one character is absurd. Only if you're utterly incompetent at pacing (which Peter Jackson is).

Or you can have an ordinary grunt rising into the role of hero- heroes have to start somewhere, and you can tell such a story in such a way as to emphasize that any of those ordinary soldiers could also have become great heroes, if put in the right circumstances.

In any case, I personally don't feel that Rose distracted from the "main" plot in TLJ. The Rose/Finn story does not directly lead to the First Order's defeat and the survival of the Resistance. But it gives the film more variety of tone, ties into the themes of the film, and emphasizes what it is that the Resistance is fighting for. Its a worthwhile audition on that basis, and I do not begrudge the relatively limited screen time it took up.

Ray, remember that Luke or Han weren't even in the rebellion properly until ESB; Luke was a farmboy who's friend was a starfighter pilot and Han was just a smuggler. Characters starting from low circumstances or status is the essence of Star Wars.

Galvatron wrote: 2018-03-02 08:59amNot sure I agree it would have fixed the entire movie, but it's an interesting point anyway.

TLDR of the video: Holdo's not sharing the plan because First Order spies. That was already implicit with the FO tracking them (I assumed they were tracking Leia's beacon to Rey). Doesn't change that mutiny story except maybe if they'd said it out loud, Poe might have done a pointless witch hunt.

I do not for the life of me understand why fans would condemn Holdo for not telling Poe every detail of her battle plan (well, other than mindless bashing of every aspect of the film, or blatant sexism).

Poe is a squadron commander. He has no right to demand the details of an Admiral's battle plans. He may have been Leia's favorite, but he had also just been demoted by Leia herself (who Holdo clearly has a great deal of respect and affection for) for insubordination and incompetence that got their entire bomber force and a significant portion of their fighters wiped out. Holdo doesn't know Poe. The very first thing he does is start insubordinately challenging her authority and questioning her orders on the bridge in front of her crew.

Even leaving the possibility of spies aside, why in God's name would she tell him anything he doesn't absolutely need to know? If she made a mistake, it was not throwing his ass in the brig right then.

I agree. When I saw TLJ in the theatre, I was in disbelief at the whole mutiny thing. My initial reading was that Poe was still being an impulsive idiot, as the film had just established. If I was supposed to be tricked into agreeing with him (I've seen that argued many times) so the movie could 'subvert' my expectation, it whiffed. So I just got a baffling sequence of events where a bunch of people who were being hunted got upset that the leadership didn't just leak their plans to the rank and file.

The problem wasn't that they didn't tell the rank and file the details of the plan. That's OpSec and perfectly sensible. But as far as the rank and file knew there was no plan. Just a vague hope that somehow things would work out for the better.

What exactly do you feel that Holdo should have said to reassure them that there was a plan, without giving away the particulars of the plan?

GuppyShark wrote: 2018-03-02 07:02pm I agree. When I saw TLJ in the theatre, I was in disbelief at the whole mutiny thing. My initial reading was that Poe was still being an impulsive idiot, as the film had just established. If I was supposed to be tricked into agreeing with him (I've seen that argued many times) so the movie could 'subvert' my expectation, it whiffed. So I just got a baffling sequence of events where a bunch of people who were being hunted got upset that the leadership didn't just leak their plans to the rank and file.

When I first saw it, I think I suspected that they would play it absolutely straight, make Holdo in the wrong and either incompetent or a traitor, not because it made any God damn sense, but because "The leadership are corrupt/useless so the lone vigilante can save the day" is such a nigh-ubiquitous cliche, particularly in American pop culture (a cliche who's overuse I hold partly responsible for the popularity of the "both sides" narrative in politics, and knee-jerk libertarian/third party destructionist bullshit in general).

I was pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong.

How about that there actually IS a plan?

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-03-02 07:07pmWhen I first saw it, I think I suspected that they would play it absolutely straight, make Holdo in the wrong and either incompetent or a traitor, not because it made any God damn sense, but because "The leadership are corrupt/useless so the lone vigilante can save the day" is such a nigh-ubiquitous cliche, particularly in American pop culture (a cliche who's overuse I hold partly responsible for the popularity of the "both sides" narrative in politics, and knee-jerk libertarian/third party destructionist bullshit in general).

When the mutiny appeared to succeed, I too was like 'well that's where this is going, guess we're rolling with it even though it's dumb'.

Batman wrote: 2018-03-02 07:13pm How about that there actually IS a plan?

Um... considering that Holdo is supposedly a highly-respected admiral and war hero, you'd think her crew would have a little more confidence that she has something up her sleeve when she says "Hey guys, don't give up yet."

Maybe she was out of touch with how demoralized her people were. Given that she wasn't in TFA, she might have only just arrived at the base as it was being evacuated, and not have been up to speed. That's not really her fault, though.