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JN1 wrote:Sorry, I missed some of the earlier part of the discussion. I guess that Satanists would probably be amongst those looking to make an accomodation with 'Auld Nick'.

I am utterly appalled that you think that Satanists actually worship Satan - we don't. "Satan" is just a metaphor for enjoyable things that most other religions want you to abstain from.


Also, the Baldricks are firing flares? I wonder how that works...

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stuart wrote: Not all of them but my working hypothesis is that a lot of them are; when people said "the voices in my head made me do it", in some cases they are speaking the literally truth, a demon of one sort or another was controlling them. One of the running jokes behind this story is that many of the things we ridicule (for example the aluminum foil beanie) turn out to be perfectly true and effective. Also, when people get around to doing the figures, they find that the widespread wearing of aluminum foil hats has significantly reduced the rates of random killings and crazy-sick things.

I’m confused. If demons have triggered or even directly controlled people during mass shootings, then how could they NOT know about guns? Likewise if demons physically come to earth at times and began shredding people with claws, but used is mind control power to make us all thing they’d been shot, how could this be done with no knowledge of guns?

A) I suspect demons would dismiss it as human magic, and inconsequential to them. After all, how many people who engage in these random acts use anything that would more than mildly inconvenience a demon? They're usually not going to buy a .44 Elmer Keith Memorial Magnum that can put an elephant on its ass with a well-placed shot. (Apparently the baldricks have not possessed African safari hunters and gone on elephant hunts. Elephants must not be intelligent enough.) They're going to buy a Ruger 10/22 or a 9mm pistol.

B) The human brain is excellent at wholly inventing context to match data presented to it. Which is to say, it's highly-efficient at spotting patterns, whether or not those patterns really exist. Present a crowd of witnesses with seeing people die horribly from staff blasts and infernal teeth and claws, while their minds are convinced that they've seen a human being commit the crime. Someone might actually catch a demonic presence on the edge of their vision. However, people don't usually die from ball lightning blasts, and people usually don't rip other people open with their bare hands. So their brain will invent an explanation that fits into the framework of what it already knows. Since we've been conditioned to associate people dying violently with guns, and since those bits of ball lightning tend to dissipate explosively . . . someone will put two and 1.5 together and get four and say "That man had a gun!" This causes the lightbulb to go off in other peoples' heads, confirms the unspoken feelings of others, and the one or two who are still uneasy with it will go along with it on the force of herd mentality.

It's the same phenomena that causes masses of people to believe they've experienced a religious phenomena, or swear that they all saw a UFO.

Your 'B' explaination was very Pratchettesque, GMT

Sea Skimmer wrote:I’m confused. If demons have triggered or even directly controlled people during mass shootings, then how could they NOT know about guns? Likewise if demons physically come to earth at times and began shredding people with claws, but used is mind control power to make us all thing they’d been shot, how could this be done with no knowledge of guns?

I suspect what Luga meant by "You were wise to conceal these weapons from us" was a reference to anything more powerful than the average small-caliber weapon used in these school and mall shootings.

After all, what seems to be killing Baldricks are full-calibre rifle rounds and up. The average school or mall shooter uses handguns, small rifles, or shotguns - weapons that, on the whole, would not really threaten a Baldrick very much. I don't even think a Baldrick would be impressed by an AK-47, if he possessed some fellow over in the Middle East and sent him on a rampage for shits and giggles.

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:B) The human brain is excellent at wholly inventing context to match data presented to it. Which is to say, it's highly-efficient at spotting patterns, whether or not those patterns really exist. Present a crowd of witnesses with seeing people die horribly from staff blasts and infernal teeth and claws, while their minds are convinced that they've seen a human being commit the crime. Someone might actually catch a demonic presence on the edge of their vision. However, people don't usually die from ball lightning blasts, and people usually don't rip other people open with their bare hands. So their brain will invent an explanation that fits into the framework of what it already knows. Since we've been conditioned to associate people dying violently with guns, and since those bits of ball lightning tend to dissipate explosively . . . someone will put two and 1.5 together and get four and say "That man had a gun!" This causes the lightbulb to go off in other peoples' heads, confirms the unspoken feelings of others, and the one or two who are still uneasy with it will go along with it on the force of herd mentality.

It's the same phenomena that causes masses of people to believe they've experienced a religious phenomena, or swear that they all saw a UFO.

Sure, the people who were on the scene and entangled to see this would believe "man with a gun".

The autopsy afterwards would show "Hey, this CLEARLY is not the work of a gun".

I suspect that the appearances of Berserkers in their own flesh, rather than possession of a human body, have been limited to more primitive of areas, or for more isolated of killings. I'd even suggest things like the Chupacabra were acts of Berserkers, but it seems too low-profile and prank-ish for a berserking Baldrick.

I am utterly appalled that you think that Satanists actually worship Satan - we don't. "Satan" is just a metaphor for enjoyable things that most other religions want you to abstain from.

You have my sincere apologies, it was a belief based on something I had heard a supposed Satanist say on TV a while back. I certainly did not intend to insult anyone.

JN1 wrote:You have my sincere apologies, it was a belief based on something I had heard a supposed Satanist say on TV a while back. I certainly did not intend to insult anyone.

Well, admittedly, "Satanism" is a name labeling a wide variety of beliefs that may have varying amounts (or nothing at all!) in common with one another.

"Satanism" -- meaning whatever you want it to mean?

Chapter 24: The All Hell, All The Time Edition! Whoopee! Seriously, though, thank you Stuart for this one, going particularly into the mentalities in Hell (for example, Satan actually referring to "kidlings"), as well as showing Rahab's calculating mind.

DarthShady wrote:If war between hell and heaven would happen it would be very good for us.

But then at that point, what becomes the (most) strategically appropriate posture towards Heaven once it is found out that the conflict's become three-way? I see three things here:
1) All of the Human force vs. Heavenly force contacts thusfar have been Humans killing angels/cherubs without taking casualties (discounting the family)... does Heaven even know about these hostile contacts? (In the case of Chapter 25, will Heaven have found out by then... and what are the immediate consequences from both the Heaven and Hell perspectives on the "mysterious" deaths?)
2) Between Heaven and Hell, Heaven is the stronger, and Human mobilization has yet to peak... the paradigm (when Cheney's observation of declaration of war on Heaven) does not seem to have changed!
3) Taking a "neutral" stance may allow Humanity to observe the Heavenly "military" in action (against Hell); this means that Humanity would in the future actually proceed in a future conflict with better intel than they did when the baldricks (i.e. Abigor's army) first started coming in.

Stuart, so what's LTGENs Odierno and Chiarelli up to in this? Does Odierno still maintain the role he had? (In my layman's understanding, GEN Petraeus as CDR MNF-I handling strategic and LTGEN Odierno as CDR MNC-I handling tactical.) Oh, and if you start having Human intel start on the intelligence gathering for, say, understanding demons (political structure, culture, "lifestyle," etc.) as a lead up to psy ops geared for demon minds... (As long as it's not that Humanity chest-puffing I've seen earlier in this thread, good lord. Pun intended.)

Sea Skimmer wrote: I’m confused. If demons have triggered or even directly controlled people during mass shootings, then how could they NOT know about guns? Likewise if demons physically come to earth at times and began shredding people with claws, but used is mind control power to make us all thing they’d been shot, how could this be done with no knowledge of guns?

What they would do is plant the idea in a person's mind. They wouldn't give precise instructions but mission-instructions. So, they wouldn't say "take a gun and do this" but "go to this place and kill everybody inside". Then leave the poor mind-controlled (post-hypnotic?) to work the fine details out for themselves.

Actual berserker massacres would be of the "splattered blood and bits of flesh all over the walls" variety not involving guns.

Hmmm like what Charles Mansens followers did.


Looks like the LT and her men are razing Hell

Edward Yee wrote:(discounting the family)

Nitpick: The Angel in that example didn't kill that family, Memnon the Harpy did. The Angel just got blamed for it.

3) Taking a "neutral" stance may allow Humanity to observe the Heavenly "military" in action (against Hell); this means that Humanity would in the future actually proceed in a future conflict with better intel than they did when the baldricks (i.e. Abigor's army) first started coming in.

I don't think Hell and Heaven would make war on one another - it looks like Heaven wants Earth to be stamped out quickly, as our continued existence seems to be interfering with their plans. If anything, when Hell's failures become more obvious, Heaven's going to pull out the whoop-ass (Such as it may be), and come down here to deal with us more directly.

Sea Skimmer wrote:
I’m confused. If demons have triggered or even directly controlled people during mass shootings, then how could they NOT know about guns? Likewise if demons physically come to earth at times and began shredding people with claws, but used is mind control power to make us all thing they’d been shot, how could this be done with no knowledge of guns?

I'm not sure it's been conclusively established that every time someone thinks he hears voices, they're from Heaven or Hell. Some people may well be suffering from real mental illnesses or have other reasons for their crimes.

Nor has it been established that Luba is either being entirely truthful or is entirely correct. The Berserker story may be fictional and the Mall baldrick was sent on a terror mission as part of this new war. It may also well be that some, or even most, mass murders are committed by people for their own reasons and not at the behest of H1 or H2.

In Hell, at least, there seems to be a bias towards not sharing information in order to keep an advantage over a rival. There's also a culture of the Greater Demons having little patience with the lower ones. Trying to tell the boss about something he believes he already knows everything would likely get a demon hurt.

Finally, keep in mind that Hell seems to have a Bronze Age technology. They probably don't have printing and may have little publishing. Most demons may well be illiterate. There may be individuals and pockets who are moderately well informed about this very recent technological surge on the part of Humans, but this may be so limited that few if any Dukes of Hell have learned much.

Edit:

I see Stuart answered the question while I was writing this.

A war between heaven and earth all depends on whether or not God is omniscient or not. Its very hard to hide intel from an all-knowing omnipresent diety.

Plus, fighting a cherub is a whole other thing. Descriptions of angels from classical texts make demons look like puppies by comparrison. Hundreds of feet high, flinging lightning and thunder and Lord knows what else. We saw one TK a demon through a brick wall, what's to say they can't flip a tank with their thoughts?

God is obviously not omniscient here, or He wouldn't have been surprised by the human resistance to Hell.

Actually, Heaven probably sent the emissaries to Hell because they were pissed that their man in Iraq ended up dead. To steal a phrase, they probably put 2 and 1.5 together and got 4. They obviously thought sending one angel to talk to one demon would be enough to get the message across, but when their guys fails to report back they probably assumed that Hell was getting arrogant. So they decide to dispatch a larger, better defended force straight to Satan to make him answer for this outrage.

Satan, incidentally, probably has his nuts in a vice with regards to Heaven at the moment, even though I doubt he knows it yet. Emissaries got blown up on his soil, and he doesn't have an explanation. If he says he doesn't know what happened, they'll assume he's lying. If he suggests that humans might have done it, then he loses a ridiculous amount of face in front of Heaven and his own subordinates. He can't bring up that possibility unless he had absolute proof. So his best bet is to pin it on the Duke in that area... which leads to civil war in Hell. Either way, the LT just threw a live grenade into the gears.

Humans had best be aware of victory disease. It has been easy so far...that doesn't mean it will continue to be. On another point..How will this affect police forces. Most police (at least in the US) don't carry anything heavier than a 9mm (or maybe an AR-15) for SWAT. That has been proven ineffective against hells forces....

It occurred to me on the way home... in a way, what the LT and her crew are doing in Hell is terrorism/insurgency as never seen on earth.

See, at least in the human world, even though terrorism may frighten people and paralyze things, at least we kind of know what's possible. We know that suicide bombers, crazy gunmen, or suitcase nukes are theoretically possible, and we know that there are people out there who would try such things.

But, from the baldricks' point of view, it's not something they ever dreamed of, even in their worst nightmares. The blowing up of buildings and bridges like that is (AFAIK) unheard of; the poor guys don't even know how it would be possible. And they don't believe that their human captives are at all capable of resisting; the thought never really enters their minds.

In other words, it's one thing to be hit by something you can't see. It's another to be hit by something your mind can't even conceive of.

JCady wrote:God is obviously not omniscient here, or He wouldn't have been surprised by the human resistance to Hell.

God doesn't exist in this story. There is, however, an inhabitant of "Heaven" named Yahweh that the character of God is based on. None of the creatures in here have any supernatural powers.

gtg947h wrote:It occurred to me on the way home... in a way, what the LT and her crew are doing in Hell is terrorism/insurgency as never seen on earth.

They're also vastly better equipped than pretty much any other terrorists in history, what with the single most powerful military power on Earth backing them.

When that Baldrick mentioned that their had been an increase in the number of souls entering Hell did he mean since the war began or during the last few centuries with the start of the modern age?

Sean Mulligan wrote:When that Baldrick mentioned that their had been an increase in the number of souls entering Hell did he mean since the war began or during the last few centuries with the start of the modern age.

I'm pretty sure he meant during the last few centuries with the start of the modern age. Human casualties have been very low in this war, so if it were just that, he wouldn't think anything of it -- remember, World War II dwarfs all subsequent conflicts by an order of magnitude or more.

gtg947h wrote:It occurred to me on the way home... in a way, what the LT and her crew are doing in Hell is terrorism/insurgency as never seen on earth.

No, It is not terrorism, they are hitting military targets, not civilian, big difference. LT and her pilots are a military force attacking a military force and its associated infrastructure, this is a standard part of normal warfare.

snip

In other words, it's one thing to be hit by something you can't see. It's another to be hit by something your mind can't even conceive of.

Your point? Its not terrorism and if they dont know whats hitting them, well, sucks to be a demon, eh? Iguess they will learn the hard way.

Sean Mulligan wrote:When that Baldrick mentioned that their had been an increase in the number of souls entering Hell did he mean since the war began or during the last few centuries with the start of the modern age?

Given probable demon lifespans(immortal unless killed, until now probably most frequently in intracine warfare), along with other hints, I'd go with the latter.

Where we think in terms of months and years, demons think in terms of centuries and eons.

Firethorn wrote:

Sean Mulligan wrote:When that Baldrick mentioned that their had been an increase in the number of souls entering Hell did he mean since the war began or during the last few centuries with the start of the modern age?

Given probable demon lifespans(immortal unless killed, until now probably most frequently in intracine warfare), along with other hints, I'd go with the latter.

Where we think in terms of months and years, demons think in terms of centuries and eons.

Well remember, there was a HUGE mass die-off/suicide of about 20% of the faithful of the different abrahammic faiths that all went to hell. That probably didn't go unnoticed.

That however was expected as Yawheh was selling off his stake in Earth to Satan. The demons would have all been prepared for that sort of influx of souls and wouldn't have dared hide something like that as their superiors would be expecting a massive increase in the harvests.

There's one word, and only one word, that this update made me immediately think of:


WOLVERINES!!!