StarDestroyer.Net BBS

The A-20 and other tier 4 light tanks are jammed into a dumbassed "scout" role that only exists on paper and is only fun in the little personal world the developers have created for themselves. It and the other abused tanks of it's tier have been a huge point of contention in the game, but everyone gets told that it's "working as intended."

Luckily it leads to the T-34, which is one of the best tier 5's in the game once it gets some upgrades on it. The 76mm isn't worth a shit on the thing, but the 57mm is high-velocity joy. There the only main problem is the enemies you face, since the Type 59 has skewed the matchmaker hideously with the glut of cheap tier 8 tanks. Again, "working as intended" as always.

Really, Wargaming may as well just get it over with and whore themselves to EA. They've already got the "You dirty plebeians just don't understand our vision!" stance on the playerbase, so they'd fit right in.

Wouldn't you face pretty much the same opposition in a T-34 that you do in my new Sherman?

Because if so, then yeah, you're fighting a large fraction of matches with T6 heavies and even the occasional T7 or T8 threat- I saw my first Type 59 last night, although someone had already exploderized it pretty thoroughly. I recognize that it's a nuisance- but I can live with it, because futilely pinging shots off Tiger tanks and IS-series armor is part of the Sherman experience. Remember Normandy, and Korea?

If it weren't for the client being unstable on my computer, I'd be pretty well satisfied- just being able to play each match through to the end without glitching would do wonders for my morale, even if I'm spending a lot of time hiding from rampaging Tigers.


Hmmm. Question: if I'm going somewhere from the Sherman, should I go for the M4A3E2 Jumbo, or the M4A3E8 Easy Eight? The E8 might be more up my alley since I've found myself persistently annoyed by the Sherman being relatively sluggish compared to the earlier US mediums, or at least sluggish with the engine and suspension I've got in there at the moment.

Now this just isn't fair. I'm in a crappy A20, and suddenly against E-75s and M-48s? Who the hell thought THAT was right?

The dedicated scout tanks get dropped in those matches soley to scout. There's really not much I can add, unless you'd like a Leo as moral support.

Vanas wrote:The dedicated scout tanks get dropped in those matches soley to scout. There's really not much I can add, unless you'd like a Leo as moral support.

Well. It's all about trying to go for the light at the end of the tunnel. I enjoyed the hell out of wrecking other lights in a BT, while driving circles around them. Is the T34 at least that good? This is a damn russian game after all, please tell me they're unfairly generous to the T34 for all the trouble A20 drivers need to go through?

Well, mediums just don't have the agility of lights, and as you move up the tiers you get heavier, slower-firing guns which are needed to break high-tier armor. So I doubt it will be quite the same- you need to pick your shots more carefully to penetrate armor (at Tier 1 and 2 nearly any gun can break nearly any armor at most reasonable angles and ranges), and you won't be quite as zippy.

Nephtys wrote:Now this just isn't fair. I'm in a crappy A20, and suddenly against E-75s and M-48s? Who the hell thought THAT was right?

"Scout"

AKA: Go die so someone else can have fun at your expense.

At tier 5, as Simon said, you'll pretty much top out at meeting T7s, possibly the odd lost T8 tank. So the T-34 should at least be functional against them when you upgrade the gun. I can't really comment on driving one as the T-34 is insufficiently grey and boxy for my tanking needs.

Highlord Laan wrote:The A-20 and other tier 4 light tanks are jammed into a dumbassed "scout" role that only exists on paper and is only fun in the little personal world the developers have created for themselves. It and the other abused tanks of it's tier have been a huge point of contention in the game, but everyone gets told that it's "working as intended."

This. It is honestly quite stupid that when this happens, the best thing for the 'scout' tank to do is run in and die. You get a bunch of xp for 'spotting', a bunch of money if you're lucky, and you can play another tank while waiting for that much to finish. There is no incentive to do anything else.

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, mediums just don't have the agility of lights, and as you move up the tiers you get heavier, slower-firing guns which are needed to break high-tier armor. So I doubt it will be quite the same- you need to pick your shots more carefully to penetrate armor (at Tier 1 and 2 nearly any gun can break nearly any armor at most reasonable angles and ranges), and you won't be quite as zippy.

Actualy, as you move up in tiers mediums generally just get better. This is especially true of the US Medium tree, it's pretty mediocre depending on the route you take until you hit the Sherman or M7, but it doesn't really start to take off until you get to the Easy 8, and by the time you get to the Pershing you're in a medium that a decent driver can skull fuck anything in it's tier across all weight classes. When you get to the Patton you've got a medium tank that can and will flat out sodomize anything outside of a Maus (and even that is doable with a bit of careful driving and good use of the terrain for cover).

Also, Agility is nice, but survivability is more better. Lights are really only useful as scouts because of the massive speed advantage most have, but the second anything with a tier seven or higher gun gets a spot you're ass is about to explode violently.

Highlord Laan wrote:The A-20 and other tier 4 light tanks are jammed into a dumbassed "scout" role that only exists on paper and is only fun in the little personal world the developers have created for themselves. It and the other abused tanks of it's tier have been a huge point of contention in the game, but everyone gets told that it's "working as intended."

The main reason why most light drivers fail as scouts isn't really the tank they're driving so much as it's the dipstick driving. Don't go charging on out as soon as the match start (You're artillery players probably won't even have their guns in battery for at least 8-10 seconds or longer anyway). Instead, just wait till the match clock gets to about the 13 minute mark or go once your team's made contact with with the other team's high tier stuff so you can see where the big scary shit is, then go zoom out to spot find their arty and kill it or spot it so your arty can kill it (I generally just murder the arty myself because I've yet to be on a team with an arty puke that actually bothers to see what the fuck the scouts are spotting).

Mr. Coffee wrote:The main reason why most light drivers fail as scouts isn't really the tank they're driving so much as it's the dipstick driving. Don't go charging on out as soon as the match start (You're artillery players probably won't even have their guns in battery for at least 8-10 seconds or longer anyway). Instead, just wait till the match clock gets to about the 13 minute mark or go once your team's made contact with with the other team's high tier stuff so you can see where the big scary shit is, then go zoom out to spot find their arty and kill it or spot it so your arty can kill it (I generally just murder the arty myself because I've yet to be on a team with an arty puke that actually bothers to see what the fuck the scouts are spotting).

Actually, with the way spotting works, the first tank to spot the target gets the "spot xp" for the target. So in the case of two light tanks, you should be the one who charges out and dies 2 minutes in. Why? You basically steal all the xp from the other guy.

defanatic wrote:

Mr. Coffee wrote:The main reason why most light drivers fail as scouts isn't really the tank they're driving so much as it's the dipstick driving. Don't go charging on out as soon as the match start (You're artillery players probably won't even have their guns in battery for at least 8-10 seconds or longer anyway). Instead, just wait till the match clock gets to about the 13 minute mark or go once your team's made contact with with the other team's high tier stuff so you can see where the big scary shit is, then go zoom out to spot find their arty and kill it or spot it so your arty can kill it (I generally just murder the arty myself because I've yet to be on a team with an arty puke that actually bothers to see what the fuck the scouts are spotting).

Actually, with the way spotting works, the first tank to spot the target gets the "spot xp" for the target. So in the case of two light tanks, you should be the one who charges out and dies 2 minutes in. Why? You basically steal all the xp from the other guy.

This is definitely the main source of xp. It's definitely not lighting up their arty and breaking it or watching it while it gets wrecked for a full half the xp generated by the damage dealt and then seeing if you can loop through and spot some of their camping spots so they get wrecked in a campfest. Nope, it's the paltry few hundreds of xp if you're lucky enough to get a few spots before you get shanked.

Mr. Coffee wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, mediums just don't have the agility of lights, and as you move up the tiers you get heavier, slower-firing guns which are needed to break high-tier armor. So I doubt it will be quite the same- you need to pick your shots more carefully to penetrate armor (at Tier 1 and 2 nearly any gun can break nearly any armor at most reasonable angles and ranges), and you won't be quite as zippy.

Actualy, as you move up in tiers mediums generally just get better. This is especially true of the US Medium tree, it's pretty mediocre depending on the route you take until you hit the Sherman or M7, but it doesn't really start to take off until you get to the Easy 8, and by the time you get to the Pershing you're in a medium that a decent driver can skull fuck anything in it's tier across all weight classes. When you get to the Patton you've got a medium tank that can and will flat out sodomize anything outside of a Maus (and even that is doable with a bit of careful driving and good use of the terrain for cover).

Also, Agility is nice, but survivability is more better. Lights are really only useful as scouts because of the massive speed advantage most have, but the second anything with a tier seven or higher gun gets a spot you're ass is about to explode violently.

I am 100% on board with all this, Coffee; I think you misunderstood me.

I'm taking US mediums as my main tree myself; I just got the derp gun for my Sherman and would be happy as a clam if not for my glitchy client on account of the only computer I own that can play the game at all being a piece of shit laptop. I loved my M2 Medium, I even loved my M3 Lee in the sense that one might love a three-legged puppy that just won't give up.

But I don't think you can drive them the same way that you drive a Tier 2 or 3 light tank in fights against other Tier 2 or 3 light tanks (or rather, that Nephtys drove them). In T1 and T2, and even on into T3, very few tanks have enough armor to bounce 37mm rounds, except at exceptionally favorable angles, so shot penetration isn't really that big of an issue, and what really seems to matter more is a tank's hit points- although armor can still be relevant for things like the heavy frontal armor of the Pz35 and 38, or the ridiculous armor of the H35. It becomes a much bigger issue when driving Tier 5 mediums and running into higher-tier heavies and mediums that do have enough armor to deflect your rounds if you shoot carelessly.

Also, your gun doesn't fire as fast, which makes just blasting around with your foot on the gas and shooting your gun every two seconds impossible- important things can actually happen before your crew reloads the gun, like the enemy dodging behind cover that they weren't right next to, or like you getting hit a couple of times with a lighter gun. So the tactics almost have to change a bit.

A medium is a good tank; it's just not the same as a light tank.

My problem is this. When I drive a BT, I'm a speedster with the firepower to gut people, and I drive circles around them.
When I drive an A-20, I'm the lowest on the totem pole by 3 or 4 tiers. Also, enemy Mediums are faster than me, and have superior sight range. I often go and hide in a bush, then I get cored by a 122mm in one shot.

I can't even scout, that's the problem. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. I travel in valleys and other areas to avoid enemy fire... but that also just prevents me from detecting them. I move in to scout for a column of heavies, and some TD a half klick off nails me.

Yeah.

The A-20 is kind of a dog, I guess; every tree has one or two of them. For my own part, I've got the M3 Lee, which has the stat line of a decent Tier IV medium tank, but utterly horrible performance because it's a tall tank with the main gun in a sponson on the right front corner. The traverse is painfully limited, so it fights like a tank destroyer... but it's too tall to make a good TD since it's such a big target, and it doesn't have the kind of high-accuracy sniping gun that makes the TD so effective at long range.

It doesn't fight especially well at long or short range, and you can't even use the hull-down tactics so important for normal mediums, because the gun is down in the hull and the turret is an unarmed excrescence that only gives the enemy something to shoot at if you poke it up over a ridge crest.

Nephtys wrote:My problem is this. When I drive a BT, I'm a speedster with the firepower to gut people, and I drive circles around them.
When I drive an A-20, I'm the lowest on the totem pole by 3 or 4 tiers. Also, enemy Mediums are faster than me, and have superior sight range. I often go and hide in a bush, then I get cored by a 122mm in one shot.

I can't even scout, that's the problem. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. I travel in valleys and other areas to avoid enemy fire... but that also just prevents me from detecting them. I move in to scout for a column of heavies, and some TD a half klick off nails me.

Which engine do you have? With the top engine, the A-20 moves. However, I too basically got through that tank on consolation prize xp. It's got a poor gun, until you get it upgraded it doesn't move that great (but once you do, it really does), and bad sight range. Follow your heart, man, and get something to drive while you wait for it to come back. Or platoon with me and I'll try to run cover for you in a T-50 or something silly. You will be a lot better off when the French tanks come out and you get some more low tier enemies to play with. You'd be kind of well suited going up the Russian heavy tree, at least for a bit, just because the T-28 lets you unlock the T-34's best gun early so that doesn't get stuck with the A-20's guns at the start, but a secondary tank will help a lot.

Simon, I've found the M3 is halfway to a TD but not all the way. It's got enough traverse and aim speed that you can move in close behind someone and tear into things when driven semiaggressively. Unfortunately I don't remember it that great from when I was playing it, I was kinda good at it. I ground up about 13k free xp in it just helping other guys through it, and I walked out with five top guns, a record that I only just broke today in my Pershing. One little trick you can use is whenever you can, move so hills and stuff are on your left so your gun has a better sightline than your enemies.

On the general subject of lights vs mediums, you actually get a bit of the old close in sparring coming back in higher tiers just because you can close and your agility can make an enemy miss a shot or three and that's a pretty good way to avoid taking similar damage to what they take. I'll try to fraps a round or three sometime. Maybe of Seffs and me running the Panther II/Pershing combo that's been going disturbingly well for us. My Pershing might be my best tank, because it kills a lot but better than that I do a great job of luring enemies into making mistakes and hurting things bigger than me, like baiting an E-75 into a how do you do from both our mediums and an IS-4 in return for one shot at me, or tracking and mauling a Jagdtiger while it sits there helpless. It sure wins like it is. The slower fire rate does mean that you can't use as much abandon, but there's a lot more dancing for position and trying to get them to hold their shot as long as you can or better yet miss outright. Taking advantage of enemies' turning circles and terrain blindspots also comes into it. It's a really interesting art to pick up, and a good medium brawler can be brutal.

xthetenth wrote:Simon, I've found the M3 is halfway to a TD but not all the way. It's got enough traverse and aim speed that you can move in close behind someone and tear into things when driven semiaggressively. Unfortunately I don't remember it that great from when I was playing it, I was kinda good at it. I ground up about 13k free xp in it just helping other guys through it, and I walked out with five top guns, a record that I only just broke today in my Pershing. One little trick you can use is whenever you can, move so hills and stuff are on your left so your gun has a better sightline than your enemies.

I worked that one out pretty quick; one of the reasons I don't hate the Lee, just dislike it and greatly prefer either the Sherman or the M2 Medium.

Simon_Jester wrote:I worked that one out pretty quick; one of the reasons I don't hate the Lee, just dislike it and greatly prefer either the Sherman or the M2 Medium.

The M3 has the misfortune of being an odd tank sandwiched by excellent ones. This is the same misfortune the E8 suffers if you aren't too keen on low penetration guns or prone to overly aggressive driving. It's quick, but that speed and the low penetration gun that can ruin enemies from the flank are an invitation to overextend yourself. I'd say they're the weakest tanks in the US medium line, though. Everything else rocks.

xthetenth wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:I worked that one out pretty quick; one of the reasons I don't hate the Lee, just dislike it and greatly prefer either the Sherman or the M2 Medium.

The M3 has the misfortune of being an odd tank sandwiched by excellent ones. This is the same misfortune the E8 suffers if you aren't too keen on low penetration guns or prone to overly aggressive driving. It's quick, but that speed and the low penetration gun that can ruin enemies from the flank are an invitation to overextend yourself. I'd say they're the weakest tanks in the US medium line, though. Everything else rocks.

Really? I thought the E8 was by far the best tank in the American medium line, at least so far. I hate the T20, I understand that the lower profile should increase survivability, but it also really reduces the ability to get a shot off in anything but the flattest of terrain.

No, the T20 is actually the best Tier 7 in the game. Period. The Pershing and Patton are even better, pound for pound.

Block wrote:Really? I thought the E8 was by far the best tank in the American medium line, at least so far. I hate the T20, I understand that the lower profile should increase survivability, but it also really reduces the ability to get a shot off in anything but the flattest of terrain.

The T20 does best hiding behind hills and the like, where the very forward turret and tiny hull mean you can poke around corner and only expose a tiny bit of your tank. The depression isn't that bad and it's real quick. It also does well in brawls because it's kind of easy to shoot over and it's quick enough to throw off aim well.

The E8 is a bit slower, a kinda big target, and it can't hide quite as well from enemies, especially since it has to flank a lot of targets the T20 can frontally penetrate, such as the T29 (reliably at least), IS reliably, most anything tier VIII, and so on.

Also, the T20 should be able to fire over terrain better than the E8, at least really rolling terrain, since to poke its turret over a hill it can go higher and thus get more effective depression. Don't worry though, the Pershing combines the best of both, with a similar profile to the Sherman, but massive gun depression, a tough turret and its low speed maneuverability, it's a beautiful tank. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it the best tier VII period, but I've driven the T25 AT, and that thing's vicious beyond belief.

For reference, I won 39% of my fights in the E8, 55% in the Sherman, 58% in the T20, and 64% in my Pershing. I have a good case for the E8 not being that great compared to the others.

Which ties back into my old question- would anyone here advise me to take the E2 Jumbo instead of the E8? It seems like a pretty straightforward trade-off, since both tanks have the same profile and armament; heavy frontal armor versus agility and speed.

Simon_Jester wrote:Which ties back into my old question- would anyone here advise me to take the E2 Jumbo instead of the E8? It seems like a pretty straightforward trade-off, since both tanks have the same profile and armament; heavy frontal armor versus agility and speed.

I wouldn't, but then I managed to win like 70% of my fights in the Easy 8, so that's personal bias.

I don't win a large percentage of fights because of my glitchy computer- I haven't got anything that runs the game well, so in a large percentage of matches I'm forced to basically sit around doing nothing because the client keeps crashing on me. When I get a chance to participate meaningfully, I accomplish something useful often enough to be happy, but I doubt I've really turned the tide of a match more than a tiny percentage of the time. So my win percentage is about 50% no matter what tank I take. Survival percentage is lower than that, but since most battles involve 70-90% of the thirty vehicles that start the battle getting destroyed, that's inevitable.

I'm honestly unsure whether to go E2 or E8. Although since the E2 doesn't get the 105mm howitzer (I know, neither does the E8), having the heavy bow armor doesn't do as much good as it might, since the tank will lack the penetration to go gun-to-gun with enemy heavy armor safely, even given how tough its own frontal armor is.

I dunno.

I'm pretty sure the E2 does, in fact, get the howitzer.

I also find it funny that I win about the same number of matches as Simon despite having a computer that actually runs the game pretty well