The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Erra]

I'll be honest. I don't want Michael's plan to fail. Someone that ballsy, that magnificent of a bastard must succeed.

Did anyone see the end of Code Geass?

I expect Michael to succeed in much the same way Lelouch did, in the end.

[Pelranius]

If Lemuel EVER found out about Michael masterminding Maion's torture and possible death, no force on Earth or Heaven could stop him from seeking revenge. This leads to an epic confrontation, in which Michael either lets Lemuel slay him in a moment of regret for all the things he's done, or they fight and Michael is defeated by Lemuel thanks to the power of love.

On the other hand, Michael seems to be a lot bigger and stronger than Lemuel, which could end up badly for Lemuel.

Incidentally, is Lemuel an actual angel according to medieval lore or just entirely Stuart's creation.

Wow, three updates in a week. This is a really good week.

[Baughn]

I'll be honest. I don't want Michael's plan to fail. Someone that ballsy, that magnificent of a bastard must succeed.

Did anyone see the end of Code Geass?

I expect Michael to succeed in much the same way Lelouch did, in the end.

Getting shot anticlimactically after 26 episodes?

..no, I don't acknowledge R2. Though, er, I did see it. How should I put it.. .

[Erra]

I'll be honest. I don't want Michael's plan to fail. Someone that ballsy, that magnificent of a bastard must succeed.

Did anyone see the end of Code Geass?

I expect Michael to succeed in much the same way Lelouch did, in the end.

Getting shot anticlimactically after 26 episodes?

..no, I don't acknowledge R2. Though, er, I did see it. How should I put it.. .

I see your point, but at least you see what I'm getting at.

The transition from magnificent bastard protagonist to tragic hero protagonist is an easy one.

[Darth Yan]

did yahweh really create Azrael's movement or is that bullshit made up by mikey

[nightwyrm]

I'll be honest. I don't want Michael's plan to fail. Someone that ballsy, that magnificent of a bastard must succeed.

Did anyone see the end of Code Geass?

I expect Michael to succeed in much the same way Lelouch did, in the end.

Getting shot anticlimactically after 26 episodes?

..no, I don't acknowledge R2. Though, er, I did see it. How should I put it.. .

Ah yes...Lelouche...

After taking over the biggest empire on earth with my mind control powers do I:

A) Blame everything on the previous emperor, become a (relatively) benevolent dictator, make peace with the rest of the world and then have hot, nasty sex with C.C.

B) Same as A, except pick up Kallen as well and have hot, nasty threesomes.

or

C) Make everyone in the world hate me and get myself killed.

[nightwyrm]

did yahweh really create Azrael's movement or is that bullshit made up by mikey

It's mikey's BS. Yahweh isn't coherent enough to create anything.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Incidentally, is Lemuel an actual angel according to medieval lore or just entirely Stuart's creation.

Wow, three updates in a week. This is a really good week.

Lemuel in the bible was a king, and may have been another namer for Solomon. The name means 'Devoted of God'. There's no record of any angel named 'Lemuel' in anything I've come across.

It's mikey's BS. Yahweh isn't coherent enough to create anything.

I understood that bit about Yaweh to mean that he's being so horrible he is causing factions to be created, not that he's actively creating them. And Azrael's faction is NOT Michael's creation.

[nightwyrm]

It's mikey's BS. Yahweh isn't coherent enough to create anything.

I understood that bit about Yaweh to mean that he's being so horrible he is causing factions to be created, not that he's actively creating them. And Azrael's faction is NOT Michael's creation.

Yeah, but Lemuel doesn't know that. He still thinks Yahweh is an active agent and takes a direct hand in fermenting discord in angel society.

[Chad]

Lemuel nodded. "I am sorry Doctor." What neither of them knew was that was the first time in more than four millennia that an angel had made a sincere apology to a human.

OK, I gotta know. What happened in approximately 2000BC that caused an angel to apologize to a human?!? (I would guess this is some obscure old testament reference but that is as much as I got.)

[xthetenth]

People seem to be thinking the humans will give two shits if they discover some of Michael's mechinations. I really don't think this would be the case. Michael is giving Heaven and Yahweh to the humans on a silver platter THUS ENDING THE WAR. This is invaluable, and I feel more than makes up for any of Michael's transgressions in the eyes of our leaders and generals.

Michael's retribution will not be at the hands of the humans, if it happens at all. The one person I could see finally bringing Michael to justice is Lemuel, though it would be in a very tragic hero sort of way. If Lemuel EVER found out about Michael masterminding Maion's torture and possible death, no force on Earth or Heaven could stop him from seeking revenge. This leads to an epic confrontation, in which Michael either lets Lemuel slay him in a moment of regret for all the things he's done, or they fight and Michael is defeated by Lemuel thanks to the power of love.

I like this version, but I have a third version I really wouldn't mind seeing. That is where the confrontation gets resolved by Michael well and truly breaking down. It'd redeem Michael considerably for some of the more heinous stuff he's done, especially if he punishes himself (for example, insisting Lemuel get the throne), keeps Lemuel on the side of the angels (metaphorically of course, where surprisingly few angels actually are) and gives a payoff to Michael's self-questioning without making Lemuel kill him. Plus, self-sacrifice like that is more for good guys who fell, not people who believe in what they did but feel very uncomfortable about it in my opinion. Michael could and probably really should have an antiheroic BSOD of some scale, it just wouldn't feel right after the hint in the concentration camp chapter, but going so far as to kill himself even by proxy (and for that matter making his friend the one to do it) just doesn't really fit his character in my mind.

[old Infantryman]

That's not a gun, that's an artillery piece!

If I ever encountered someone lugging a monster like that around I'd be unable to take him seriously - I'd be extremely wary, but that's because I'd see him as a total headcase until proven otherwise.

Granted that if the projectile from that thing even knicked your ear you'd likely 'buy it' from hydrostatic shock, a pro with a .32 or even a .22 could put an effective 5-round group into him in the time it takes him to get a sight picture.

[Stuart]

If I ever encountered someone lugging a monster like that around I'd be unable to take him seriously - I'd be extremely wary, but that's because I'd see him as a total headcase until proven otherwise. Granted that if the projectile from that thing even knicked your ear you'd likely 'buy it' from hydrostatic shock, a pro with a .32 or even a .22 could put an effective 5-round group into him in the time it takes him to get a sight picture.

Remember TSW has a very different situation; the enemies are very large, immensely strong and hard to kill. They shrug off M16 rounds and most pistol rounds are inconsequential. The daemons and angels take multiple .50 BMG rounds and hits from anti-tank rockets to kill them. Your 5-round group from a .22 or .32 wouldn't even penetrate their skin. Hence the heavy artillery. .44 magnum, .50AE and .500 S&W are the minimum effective handgun calibers. Military rifles shoot what amount to rounds from elephant guns (which is what the .600 Nitro Express is by the way) and they are still marginal.

Anyway, most Prince George's County, MD police are headcases.

[Nick79]

If Maion is sniffing, like the majority of heroine users, rather than spiking*, and chooses to keep quiet about her habit... well, it's entirely possible, given the quantity of morphine likely to be pumped into her after she wakes up, that she can pass her addiction off as a consequence of her treatment, and get clean with 6 months of gradually decreasing, angelic scale doses of suboxone.

Lemuel seems to be not so much an addict as an unknowing abuser. His sobriety, while not precisely pleasant, is probably nothing but a slight background noise compared to what's happening with the shattering of his entire view of the universe and near death of the person he most cares for. In his case, drug substitution (rather than ramping up the dose of one drug) seems to have been going on, which makes one irritable when sober, but not craving a specific "fix" the way a smoker will think of nothing but cigarettes while trying to quit. He just keeps clean for a couple weeks and he should be feeling fine. I give him at least a 70% chance of never really understanding what happened there.

* and even if she was spiking, she probably had time to heal up tiny needle wounds during her captivity - judging from Uriel's healing, it's not quite demonic, but certainly far beyond human. The docs were curious, and they apparently checked or are about to. If there are no needle pricks, she can probably get away with keeping it quiet, if she so chooses.

[JN1]

Remember TSW has a very different situation; the enemies are very large, immensely strong and hard to kill. They shrug off M16 rounds and most pistol rounds are inconsequential.

Exactly, think back to the berserker attack in Belfast. The PSNI officers and armed civilians pumped probably hundreds of rounds of 9x19mm, 5.56x45mm NATO and 7.62x39mm into a daemon without much initial effect. It took massed firepower and heavy slugs from pump-action shotguns to bring it down.
Out of interest, Stu how effective would .455 Webley be? I'd imagine that the Mark III 'Manstopper' round might be effective.

[GrayAnderson]

Brilliant job, Michael. Now the humans are going to be leaning towards the whole condemnation-to-Hell of the world as being the ravings of a mad, out-of-control deity (if I had to guess).

[Atlan]

Remember TSW has a very different situation; the enemies are very large, immensely strong and hard to kill. They shrug off M16 rounds and most pistol rounds are inconsequential.

Exactly, think back to the berserker attack in Belfast. The PSNI officers and armed civilians pumped probably hundreds of rounds of 9x19mm, 5.56x45mm NATO and 7.62x39mm into a daemon without much initial effect. It took massed firepower and heavy slugs from pump-action shotguns to bring it down.
Out of interest, Stu how effective would .455 Webley be? I'd imagine that the Mark III 'Manstopper' round might be effective.

Actually around .45 ACP levels of power, so it'd be pretty much ineffective.

[old Infantryman]

Remember TSW has a very different situation; the enemies are very large, immensely strong and hard to kill. They shrug off M16 rounds and most pistol rounds are inconsequential. The daemons and angels take multiple .50 BMG rounds and hits from anti-tank rockets to kill them. Your 5-round group from a .22 or .32 wouldn't even penetrate their skin. Hence the heavy artillery. .44 magnum, .50AE and .500 S&W are the minimum effective handgun calibers. Military rifles shoot what amount to rounds from elephant guns (which is what the .600 Nitro Express is by the way) and they are still marginal.

Anyway, most Prince George's County, MD police are headcases.

It occured to me a millisecond after clicking 'submit' that even though I've been immersing myself in this story that I was looking at this from the 'Mundane reality' end of the lens ....and that my favourite longarm is a .577 Snider

[westrim]

On Code Geass:
Except that'll actually be him driving the cart in the end. But who will be his C.C.? Or maybe he will go into fruit production instead.

And I always supported a harem end, with Kallen, C.C., Shirley conveniently not dead, Milly, and Kaguya once she was actually, y'know, legal (hey, if she wants in who am I to judge?).

I never did get all the hate for R2. Yes, the plot seesawed wildly, etc, etc. Yes, it was a bit of a trainwreck. But trainwrecks are frikkin awesome (minus any inconvenient elements like casualties) to watch, the cars tipping end over end and jackknifing, fuel tanks exploding. Why can't people just appreciate it for what it is?

Stuff about Maion and Heroin.

Except she has been specifically mentioned before to have been an injector, making sure that Lemuel wouldn't notice the marks. I suppose we'll see soon.

[Ritterin Sophia]

-snip-

So is it back to repeating rifles then? I can't imagine imagine a .50 Beowulf AR15 is at all useful on anything but semi-automatic. Do squad support weapons and medium machine guns use the Beowulf as well or the BMJ?

[Nick79]

Yea, I wasn't sure if I remembered her spiking, that's whats with the *

Known two people close to me that had opiate dependencies, it's quite the thing. They really are themselves, as long as they have the drugs - it's not like the tweaking you see in users of uppers, or the hypnotic effects of alcohol or minor tranquilizers. Early on they seem to be in a particularly good mood all the time, and even well progressed, with their fix, their personalities are entirely intact. As long as they remain in supply, I have seen myself that someone you know well can keep themselves deeply wrapped in opiates while behaving totally normally.

[Jim Starluck]

Brilliant job, Michael. Now the humans are going to be leaning towards the whole condemnation-to-Hell of the world as being the ravings of a mad, out-of-control deity (if I had to guess).

It's entirely possible that this isn't far from the truth at all.

[nobody_really]

Sorry for the following comment which would have been better a couple months ago. I was just rereading the story, and in Chap. 43, when Lt. Midyan Yitzchak (Tekuna's Communication officer) was introduced, we have this:

It had taken years to get this operation set up, people had had to be moved into the right places, and they had had to move others into the places they were needed. But, with Divine inspiration, provided by the peerless Archangel who had appeared to them all in their visions, it had been done. They had been promised no reward. They were doing the Lord's will and that was enough.

(emphasis added)

And then, after he's been captured and interrogated in Chap. 54, we get the following:

"... According to Yitzchak, Azrael believed that Michael wasn't prosecuting the war with us enthusiastically enough and Azrael saw this as a chance to displace Michael as Yahweh's leading General. Yitzchak was promised archangel status in Heaven and various other Second Life benefits if Azrael succeeded. Obviously, he was misled."

So, was Yitzchak lying to the interrogator, or did he get different instructions when the sub was on the surface, or was the first description changed, or something else? I don't remember seeing anything in the discussion thread, but that could be because I just missed it.

Edited (2010-04-25 11:10am): Oh, I see this question was asked and answered over here on page 45. That should teach me to shut up until I've read further.

[Nematocyst]

I never did get all the hate for

Code: Select all

 R2. Yes, the plot seesawed wildly, etc, etc. Yes, it was a bit of a trainwreck. But trainwrecks are frikkin awesome[/quote]
I saw it this way:

Sunrise: 'As an apology for My-Otome Zwei, here's this!'
Fans:   :x

[Ryan Thunder]

If I ever encountered someone lugging a monster like that around I'd be unable to take him seriously - I'd be extremely wary, but that's because I'd see him as a total headcase until proven otherwise. Granted that if the projectile from that thing even knicked your ear you'd likely 'buy it' from hydrostatic shock, a pro with a .32 or even a .22 could put an effective 5-round group into him in the time it takes him to get a sight picture.

Remember TSW has a very different situation; the enemies are very large, immensely strong and hard to kill. They shrug off M16 rounds and most pistol rounds are inconsequential. The daemons and angels take multiple .50 BMG rounds and hits from anti-tank rockets to kill them. Your 5-round group from a .22 or .32 wouldn't even penetrate their skin. Hence the heavy artillery. .44 magnum, .50AE and .500 S&W are the minimum effective handgun calibers. Military rifles shoot what amount to rounds from elephant guns (which is what the .600 Nitro Express is by the way) and they are still marginal.

I'm curious. What would you have done with the Hell campaign if the aircraft couldn't use the hellfilters? I assumed you'd chosen something plausible...

Massed artillery to make up for the loss of CAS somewhat?