StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Kane Starkiller wrote:I am convinced that JMSpock is none other than bighairymountainman and I already asked him over at our brief discussion at ST.com. He denied it but the arguments are just too similar. In addition to diesel fuel there is also the way that BigHairyMountainMan insisted that there are 700 starbases based on the numbering scheme and then insisted that percentage of the Spacedock type can be derived by simply observing what percentage do seen Spacedocks constitute among the all seen starbases. JMSpock uses the exact same argumentation for Borg cube numbers: Chakotay's single unsupported line of dialogue and then claiming that we can derive the percentage of Borg cubes amongst millions of Borg vessels by observing the percentage of seen Borg cubes among the all seen vessels. The fact that seen 50 or so Borg vessels cannot possibly represent a sufficient sample for millions of ships is naturally ignored just like BHMM ignored that a few seen starbases cannot represent a sufficient sample for the number of Spacedocks.
It's the same broken logic and same intellectually dishonest premises.

To be honest, that doesn't actually prove anything since those morons just copy each other. After all the that goes on over there, its not surprising at all that they spout the exact same crap.

You know, aside from being the coolest thing on two reversed digitigrade legs, General Grievous probably is a pretty knowledgable guy. And yet when he sees (in a scene that's at least partly non-canon; They put Shaak Ti in the film again later) that they've cut their way into the 'deisel tank' he's immediately concerned about the explosion, orders the bulkheads sealed in case there's a blast, and scuttles off to be somewhere else. When, in the next scene, it does explode, there's a huge explosion visible from the outside of the ship. While deisel is pretty volitile stuff, I wouldn't expect the amount we saw in those scenes to be able to blast a sizeable chunk out of a kilometer long starship.

Spocky doesn't know how diesel engines work (or gasoline for that matter.) -

look here

Howstuffworks wrote: Both diesel engines and gasoline engines covert fuel into energy through a series of small explosions or combustions. The major difference between diesel and gasoline is the way these explosions happen. In a gasoline engine, fuel is mixed with air, compressed by pistons and ignited by sparks from spark plugs. In a diesel engine, however, the air is compressed first, and then the fuel is injected. Because air heats up when it's compressed, the fuel ignites.

compression plays a HUGE role in getting the fuel ignited in both cases, but you don't see any such compression occuring in those deleted scenes.

Edit: oh yeah.. there's also this

The ignition temperature is affected by the chemical properties of the flammable liquid. When a flammable liquid is in its liquid state, it will not ignite. It will only burn when in its gaseous state.

Gee, I didn't see the liquids going to vapor either... that's yet another thing I guess Spocky didn't know about fuels, eh?

I bet he starts claiming its MAGIC DIESEL next...

I also like that there's giant arcs of electricity(?) inside the fuel tanks there. That's a worse design trait than Star Trek's reactors, if it were deisel, given the habits of such fuels to combust violently where they are in vapour form mixed with air. Hell, it's still a terrible feature, and I can only assume it's got some function we can't guess at, and that Grievous flooded those tanks to get them to combust with the jedi inside when he was safely away.

Of course, it's nice that they also claim that this doesn't fit with the Dr Saxton's explanations, even when both ICSes he wrote clearly label tanks full of what appears to be a fossil fuel derivative as hypermatter fuel.

even disregarding the compression issue, any such "diesel fuel" tank would contain and release a buttload of highly combustible fumes. The miute those would touch sparks (And that would be pretty damn rapid) the entire thing would go up - the liquid wouldn't have even needed to "rise up" to touch the sparks. (I believe they warn about static electricity posing a combustion threat in gas stations precisely because of this.)

Then again, I don't think the combustion is all that explosive without the compression. From what I recall of them testing this on Mythbusters, sparks that ignited gasoline fumes tended to turn into giant flamethrowers, but nothing actually exploded - the way that the "fuel" supposeldy did in the deleted scenes (it certainly didnt look like it melted its way out.)

Of course, it comes as no surprise that they can't tell the difference between what looks like deisel and what isn't. That's the crux of the trektard argument; looks. Star Trek, to them, looks more advanced than Star Wars....

I feel like I'm hijacking the thread with posting this trektard stuff but this is just too good:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Let's get through it step by step.

"... the hypermatter reactor was capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to the total weekly output of several main-sequencee stars."

I understand that sentence as the generator has a power equivalent to the total weekly output of several main-sequencee stars.
It's what I get because there's a combination of two elements.
A quantified energy (several stars weekly output), associated to "burst".
A burst is something pretty much sudden. It's fast. That's why all that energy turns out be produced as a burst, ergo in such a tight timeframe that we can speak of joules per one second, which turns out to be a figure of power.

Do you agree with this interpretation or not?

Are you kidding me?
Are you fucking kidding me?!?!?
Even though the quote says energy he will interpret it as power because burst is "pretty much sudden...it's fast". So he goes on to pretend that sudden means one second so it's actually watts so it's actually power.
Just what kind of a fucking idiot do you need to be to think that if energy is released very fast you can just substitute it with power? Doesn't he realize that energy is energy no matter how fast it is exchanged? Does he even realize that his interpretation doesn't make any sense since it would then equate power to energy?
Simply amazing: it's all there black on white and says energy but the fanatic just chooses to interpret it as power.

[Kenny Banya]This is gold Jerry, GOLD![/Kenny Banya]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:All point to the fact that it's all about a sudden act, or event. I'm going to repeat a bit of what I said earlier on:

That is a weapon that requires at the very least 1 hour 13 minutes to recharge the weapon, for 1/3 of the final power when the battle station will be fully operational.

The total power would be 3 hours and 39 minutes for a fully powered shot.

13,140 seconds to gather enough energy for a full fat shot. That's a power e5 times lower than the magnitude of the energy itself.

Considering that the words expressely say "generating an energy burst".

Ergo, this only happens under uncontrolled conditions.

Can you believe this idiot? After pretending that energy burst is actually power output he can now go on to claim that since the reactor needs an hour to recharge for less than planet destroying shot then that means that the "total weekly output of several main sequence stars" only applies to "uncontrolled conditions".
Well gee maybe if you pretend that energy actually meant voltage you can decrease the power of the Death Star even further.

Not surprised at all. His master after all insists that "enough power to destroy an entire planet" should really read "enough ability to destroy an entire planet". Those fools will say ANYTHING to knock the Death Star down a notch or two million.

Darth Servo wrote:Not surprised at all. His master after all insists that "enough power to destroy an entire planet" should really read "enough ability to destroy an entire planet". Those fools will say ANYTHING to knock the Death Star down a notch or two million.

Well their reasons are rather simple really. They are faced witht he fact that it does what it does and they can't deny that it does it.

Its actually more of a chicken and egg sort of thing really. When Star Trek Planet killers are shown they behave so off from the instant destruction of the Death Star and actually blow up some time after the weapon has ceased firing that the only conclusion is a chain reaction. As such they want to make the Death Star the same thing as some sort of me tooing thing as they can't admit that their pride and joy could be less powerful then anyone else.

If the Death STar's hypermatter reactor could only produce the stated level of power when it was unstable or "uncontrolled" conditions, then it wouldn't be a capability. Since when do we rate power outputs in terms of "uncontrolled reactions" anyhow? I'd like to know of any such powerplant that would do so. In any case, the whole context indicates that the bit about malfunctioning applied to the firing process as a whole, not just the reactor independent of the rest (the power output is relevant to indicate just how much energy is involved, a nd how quickly someone would be decimated if something went wrong.) - they specifcally mention the superlaser backfiring, in fact. (I'll try to post quotes later.)

He's either never read the book or he's decided to be dishonest about Despayre too. They were testing the weapon on Despayre to see how powerful it would be - there were still uncertanties about how powerful it might be or how effective it could be. The first shot took no power, and was 1/3 the power. It was basically a planet "sterilizing" level event (atmosphere probably around 5000 degrees, implied.. that would take alot of energy. to accomplish, since that would also be an indirect effect..) Planet, however, was still intact.

The second shot, an hour and fiteen minutes later, cracked apart the crust and basically reduced the entire planet to a molten state, given what was described. This takes more energy than above, but the planet is still, basically intact.

An hour and nineteen minutes later, they fire the third and final time.. and the planet blows apart as its mass is finally scattered. Its also scattered so quickly that debris impacts on the Death STar's shield very shortly after firing. And this is all at 1/3 power. Also no funky hyperspace stuff.

Taking the three different results (ones increasing in firepower, up to mass scattering.) with similar timeframes, as well as all the "need to test" stuff, its rather obvious that they were fine tuning the beam after each shot - they weren't sure how much power could be managed, so it would make sense they conservatively go with lower power shots before working up to something more powerful.

Again, I'll try to post the quotes later

Connor MacLeod wrote:If the Death STar's hypermatter reactor could only produce the stated level of power when it was unstable or "uncontrolled" conditions, then it wouldn't be a capability. Since when do we rate power outputs in terms of "uncontrolled reactions" anyhow?

Since a desperate trektard needs an excuse to hand-wave away the enormous power of the Death Star.

I noticed someone on TFN ask about Tarkin's flagship, the "LQ Flagship Havelon". Can anyone who's read the book elaborate on what kind of vessel this is, please? Yet another Executor-predecessor? 8)

VT-16 wrote:I noticed someone on TFN ask about Tarkin's flagship, the "LQ Flagship Havelon". Can anyone who's read the book elaborate on what kind of vessel this is, please? Yet another Executor-predecessor?

Absolutely nothing is said about what kind of ship the "LQ Flagship Havelon" was. Tarkin is aboard the ship and muses about the Death Star. The only mentioning of it is this:

Death Star novel page 11 wrote:LQ Flagship Havelon, in geosynchronous orbit above planet Despayre

Aw chucks. I do wonder what the "LQ" stands for. Is it based on a real life military term?

Some of my own notes concerning the Death Star:

Admiral Daala suffered head trauma that was hypotized to cause an impact on her cognitive capabilites and memory. This could actually mean that Admiral Daala possessed considerable tactical and strategical skills, but the injury suffered reduced them or at least made her incapable of utilizing those mental resources (which would explain her abysmal failures and track record after the events of the novel in question).

Tarkin and Motti are both described actually more humane than usually. Whereas both remain ruthless and cold in their calculations, Tarkin is shown to clearly care about Daala and dislike Vader's various acts (especially the execution of innocent officer). Motti also shows great respect and even care for an older Admiral and initially barks at the suggestion of blaming the deceased Admiral for the destruction of the Star Destroyer Unbeatable out of respect.

Vader's status is confirmed. He is not just some random Imperial dignitary currying for the Emperor's favor: he is the Emperor's special emissary and Tarkin notes that it might just as well have come from Palpatine's own lips if Vader makes an order. He stands outside normal military hierarchy, but is more than capable of overriding commands of military officers (and has wide leeway in how he conducts himselfs and his investigations). It is to be noted that Tarkin actually sought confirmation from Vader before truly making the decision of blowing up Alderaan.

The shield strength of the Death Star has been noted in this discussion before; however, the idea that the level of shield strength which Tarkin finds rudimentary is enough to warrant General Dodonna's comment ["The battle station is heavily shielded..."] is a testimony to the battle station's awesome might.

Any and all research into Jedi lore and midichlorian-based medical activity is strictly forbidden and can result in detainment and trial. The standard medical procedures still contain some way of quantifying the midichlorian count, but further information is almost impossible to access.

Tiriol wrote:Admiral Daala suffered head trauma that was hypotized to cause an impact on her cognitive capabilites and memory. This could actually mean that Admiral Daala possessed considerable tactical and strategical skills, but the injury suffered reduced them or at least made her incapable of utilizing those mental resources (which would explain her abysmal failures and track record after the events of the novel in question).

Very cool

Tarkin and Motti are both described actually more humane than usually. Whereas both remain ruthless and cold in their calculations, Tarkin is shown to clearly care about Daala and dislike Vader's various acts (especially the execution of innocent officer). Motti also shows great respect and even care for an older Admiral and initially barks at the suggestion of blaming the deceased Admiral for the destruction of the Star Destroyer Unbeatable out of respect.

Also good. And quite realistic. People can still be a monsters to Jews and Slavs- err, Wookies and Alderannians - while not necesserily being psychotic to their own people. Monkeysphere don'cha know.

Vader's status is confirmed. He is not just some random Imperial dignitary currying for the Emperor's favor: he is the Emperor's special emissary and Tarkin notes that it might just as well have come from Palpatine's own lips if Vader makes an order. He stands outside normal military hierarchy, but is more than capable of overriding commands of military officers (and has wide leeway in how he conducts himselfs and his investigations). It is to be noted that Tarkin actually sought confirmation from Vader before truly making the decision of blowing up Alderaan.

Really? Interesting...

The shield strength of the Death Star has been noted in this discussion before; however, the idea that the level of shield strength which Tarkin finds rudimentary is enough to warrant General Dodonna's comment ["The battle station is heavily shielded..."] is a testimony to the battle station's awesome might.

Any and all research into Jedi lore and midichlorian-based medical activity is strictly forbidden and can result in detainment and trial. The standard medical procedures still contain some way of quantifying the midichlorian count, but further information is almost impossible to access.

Humm. I wonder does your Imperal Medical Droid inform on you if you have a patient with jedi potential...

Michael Reaves was interviewed in the Washington Post about the novel, read here.

Bought this book the other day. So far, I'm loving it. Ordinary people! Imperial perspectives! Darth Vader...

And tons of jokes. I loved the bit with "Teh Roxxor" and I'm pretty sure the repeated reference to 'bending robots' in the Death Star's construction is a Futurama ref.

Mange wrote:Absolutely nothing is said about what kind of ship the "LQ Flagship Havelon" was. Tarkin is aboard the ship and muses about the Death Star. The only mentioning of it is this:

Death Star novel page 11 wrote:LQ Flagship Havelon, in geosynchronous orbit above planet Despayre

According to Maritime.org, LQ is a naval designation for drafting services, which in that context relates to hull construction. If that's the intended interpretation then it designates Tarkin's vessel as the flagship for the Imperial Navy's spaceborne building efforts, which seems reasonable.

Having finished it. Yeah. 10/10. Easily the finest SW book I've read in a very long time.

Joe Momma wrote:According to Maritime.org, LQ is a naval designation for drafting services, which in that context relates to hull construction. If that's the intended interpretation then it designates Tarkin's vessel as the flagship for the Imperial Navy's spaceborne building efforts, which seems reasonable.

Thanks, that sounds reasonable!

I've bought and read through Death Star as well - a decent book, although I wouldn't rate it as high as 10/10, even though this is a lot better than most of the awful EU trash set after the trilogy (The Truce of Bakaru was mostly very, very boring, and the Vong beating down a inept, stupid New Republic led by ex-Rebel hypocrites, and dysfunctional Neo-Jedi sounds utterly rubbish).

The most interesting Death Star character was clearly Master Chief Petty Officer Tenn Graneet - I always suspected the man in the black jumpsuit, and beetle helmet, the very man who pulled the trigger for the Superlaser, would have a severly wounded conscious after blowing up Alderaan. It is also likely that Imperial Navy archivist was directly responsible for secretly sending off the detailed schematics of the Death Star to a less secure mainframe system on a backwater world, and that demonstrates that even crusty Imperials in olive green khaki can really stick it to the Man.

And Memah Roothes has the same lack of hindsight as any barman working on the RMS Titanic, and LZ 129 Hindenburg.

And here is how I would've wrote the scene of Tenn Graneet in the Superlaser Fire Control (bad micro-fanfic alert):

The control systems within the Superlaser’s tomblike control booth were rudimentary, robust, and no thrills. The bank of dials, buttons, and levers at Tenn’s main firing station were surprisingly very quaint, and old fashioned for the enabler of the most godlessly complicated, and devastating WMD ever devised in the history of galactic civilization. He was mildly disappointed at the control set up, although the thought of all that unlimited firepower at the yank of a silver lever thrilled him, and Tenn seated himself inside a egg shaped technician chair, reaching out his arms to clasp at two of the control levers with his gauntleted hands. His black, glossy thumbs slowly rubbed the stumpy grey appendages in a rhythmic manner that was disconcerting…

Is it sad that I just realized 'Despayre' is pronounced 'Dispair'?

I fail

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Is it sad that I just realized 'Despayre' is pronounced 'Dispair'?

I fail

You are a reject.

I'm sorry but it's true.

As for BO's version. Nah. That kind of crystal-key setup is quite common in the original triology. I think it's reasonable to take that for the fashion of the time. Also, it's 'no frills' as in dresses without frills and such on them.

To wrench the topic in a different direction, will the boost stuff into hyperspace be an alternate explaination for the Endor jamming?

As per Truce at Bakura sourcebook, the Imperial fleet suffered a loss in sensors and communications due to the radiation from the Death Star explosion. Since Endor isn't fried by the radiation and ISD sensors work well enough in the vicinity of stars, that explanation doesn't appear to work well.
Perhaps this is a better reason?