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I can almost hear Stuart's blood pressure rising...

So, putting it politely, McNamara was a worthless bastard whose every effort was devoted towards reinforcing his own delusions about himself?

McNamara's wiki page says that he opposed the Edsel.

Isn't he also responsible for a lot of the stupidest current corporate practices? I know he was some kind of professor teaching business for a while.


On a different note, this novel and eventual trilogy needs a soundtrack. In-universe, people would probably be commissioning heavy metal bands to write suitably loud and awesome songs about fighting heaven and hell and taking over the afterlife. Out of universe, what would be some suitable tracks?

For the scenes of humanity laying down the hurt in hell - Rob D's Clubbed to Death.
For the bombing raids - Chemical Brothers Galvanize "push the button!"
For DIMO(N) the earlier chapters with just kitten ... for some reason Ozzy Osborne " Lay Your World On Me" just hits the mark.
The armoured/chemical warfare assault - got to be Ozzy again - I Ain't Going Away.

Yeah, the whole McNamara thing was a bit of a turnoff in the last section.

I mean sure we all know he was a fucking idiot, but saying that the worst part of hell was reserved for him and him alone? He was just a stupid beuracrat. Okay in Stuarts world, killing the Valk and AMB are mortal sins, among others but COME ON?

Comparing McNamara to REAL evil people like Hitler, Himler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot -and THAT it just in THIS century- is a huge insult. The man was a fucking idiot on the level of Donald Rumsfeld, but he was *hardly* a mass murder like the aformentioned people - let alone some of the rather nasty people outside the 20th century.

As a tongue in cheek thing it was funny and I laughed, but some people in this thread are taking it waaayyy too seriously.

Frankly, I was hoping the final shot would be that of Urial materializing on Earth somewhere to start his campaign of horror, but oh well.

Setzer wrote:I can almost hear Stuart's blood pressure rising...

So, putting it politely, McNamara was a worthless bastard whose every effort was devoted towards reinforcing his own delusions about himself?

Self-glorifying idiots are tolerable in the right place (i.e., a way-too-serious security guard) but the effects of someone like that as SecDef at that critical junction in history set back the end of the Cold War by 1-2 decades, missile defense by 40 years, easy access to space by... an as yet untold number.

Say what you will about the oh-so-lampooned 'weaponization' of space, but the military in this country's often led the way in technology's use in markets. We built GPS to more reliably move about our forces and yes, guide weapons, but now anyone with a few bucks can enjoy it's uses on hiking trips; a convenience enjoyed by all. The Space Shuttle had a what, 25 year run? Then that house of cards finally had it's unavoidable accident (unavoidable in that that junk of foam could've happened years earlier or later, but the underside is too sensitive to damage and having no escape capsule) and we're stuck without any reusable 'space truck.' That's a crying fucking shame is what it is. I couldn't quantify how far back Robert Strange might've set back scientific progress but there's no doubt NASA or some equivalent scientific body in the U.S. would've eventually siphoned off and benefited from the existence of high-and-fast military space plane projects. Just like they've siphoned off military aircraft for decades, to include the very same B-70 we're talking so much about in the context of this moron's life.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Comparing McNamara to REAL evil people like Hitler, Himler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot -and THAT it just in THIS century- is a huge insult. The man was a fucking idiot on the level of Donald Rumsfeld, but he was *hardly* a mass murder like the aformentioned people - let alone some of the rather nasty people outside the 20th century.

Except for one problem: Hitler and the like weren't in the 9th circle. The ninth circle was reserved for traitors, people who betrayed their people, their country, and their friends.

Which, likewise, leaves McNamara out of the 9th circle. He wasn't a traitor. He thought he was surving his country. He was just a fucking bullheaded arrogant idiot.

Stuart, a recommendation: With every other person you named in the 9th circle, I figured out why they were there within 30 seconds of looking them up on Wikipedia, and they were/are traitors to the last. Most of them should probably be left in that pit, and maybe some of the people from Tarturus shold join them. McNamara, however, I had to wait for you to explain why the fuck he was supposed to be there. Like I said above, McNamara, in his own head, was not a traitor. With all of the others, they were people who said "I am going to betray X." McNamara, on the other hand, was "I am going to do my job. And I am right. ALWAYS." Not the same. NcNamara was a fucking idiot, and I suppose if you twist and torture the logic enough, he did betray his country, but its not the same.

What he thought of himself is irrelevant, it's what other people thought of him that counts.
He did betray his country, sacrificing it's security on the altar of his own arrogance, there's no twisting or torturing of logic involved.

Darth Nostril wrote:What he thought of himself is irrelevant, it's what other people thought of him that counts.
He did betray his country, sacrificing it's security on the altar of his own arrogance, there's no twisting or torturing of logic involved.

Incompetence is entirely different from betrayal, and betrayal gets you in the 9th circle.

Singular Quartet wrote:

Darth Nostril wrote:What he thought of himself is irrelevant, it's what other people thought of him that counts.
He did betray his country, sacrificing it's security on the altar of his own arrogance, there's no twisting or torturing of logic involved.

Incompetence is entirely different from betrayal, and betrayal gets you in the 9th circle.

I must agree, unfortunately, there is no place in hell dedicated to the incompetent. Perhaps the 6th circle for heretics, bolgia 5 of the 8th circle, where corrupt politicians go, or bolgia 8, for the fraudulent advisors? The problem is, once we accept that McNamara never did anything for evil so much as he did it for incompetence, it becomes more difficult to place him anywhere in Hell. Personally, I'd leave him in the 9th circle; calling him a traitor is more acceptable and understandable than to label him a heretic, especially considering that this is over national defense methods, rather than religious issues.

darthbob88 wrote:

Singular Quartet wrote:

Darth Nostril wrote:What he thought of himself is irrelevant, it's what other people thought of him that counts.
He did betray his country, sacrificing it's security on the altar of his own arrogance, there's no twisting or torturing of logic involved.

Incompetence is entirely different from betrayal, and betrayal gets you in the 9th circle.

I must agree, unfortunately, there is no place in hell dedicated to the incompetent. Perhaps the 6th circle for heretics, bolgia 5 of the 8th circle, where corrupt politicians go, or bolgia 8, for the fraudulent advisors? The problem is, once we accept that McNamara never did anything for evil so much as he did it for incompetence, it becomes more difficult to place him anywhere in Hell. Personally, I'd leave him in the 9th circle; calling him a traitor is more acceptable and understandable than to label him a heretic, especially considering that this is over national defense methods, rather than religious issues.

I don't know, Fraudulent advisors or curropt politicians both seem a good spot for him.

Singular Quartet wrote:

Darth Nostril wrote:What he thought of himself is irrelevant, it's what other people thought of him that counts.
He did betray his country, sacrificing it's security on the altar of his own arrogance, there's no twisting or torturing of logic involved.

Incompetence is entirely different from betrayal, and betrayal gets you in the 9th circle.

His place was only reserved from what the demons could read from the people who were dead. Maybe the demons would of sent him somewhere else once they get to read his mind.

Did you read anything that was posted or just bury your head in the sand?
Strange went way beyond incompetent and through to betraying his country just to assuage his ego.

Mayabird wrote:McNamara's wiki page says that he opposed the Edsel.

The polite term for this is "revisionist history." The blunt term is "lying like a cheap rug."

Mayabird wrote:On a different note, this novel and eventual trilogy needs a soundtrack. In-universe, people would probably be commissioning heavy metal bands to write suitably loud and awesome songs about fighting heaven and hell and taking over the afterlife. Out of universe, what would be some suitable tracks?

Oh, somewhere in here there's one song that absolutely MUST be used...

Queen's "Princes of the Universe."

No question about it.

Ed.

Singular Quartet wrote:I don't know, Fraudulent advisors or curropt politicians both seem a good spot for him.

Perhaps there needs to be a tenth circle for fraudulent, self-deluded incompetents?

(Of course, then a statistically significant section of the human race would probably end up there. )

Ed.

Darth Nostril wrote:For the scenes of humanity laying down the hurt in hell - Rob D's Clubbed to Death.
For the bombing raids - Chemical Brothers Galvanize "push the button!"
For DIMO(N) the earlier chapters with just kitten ... for some reason Ozzy Osborne " Lay Your World On Me" just hits the mark.
The armoured/chemical warfare assault - got to be Ozzy again - I Ain't Going Away.

I don't think so. If a movie version were ever made, a better choice would be to go with bombastic orchestral/choral music to overlay the action scenes. Rock music would be used as in-context background, not as main overlay soundtrack.

For example, we could have a shot of a Humvee driving through the Iraq desert toward the Hellmouth, and inside the Humvee the soldiers are grinning and listening to AC/DC's "Highway to Hell". It's the soldiers who would be listening to the music in the movie. Think of the looney Beach Boys music scene in "Three Kings".

An alternate method would be to switch from one genre to the other, the way the soundtrack for "BlackHawk Down" switches back and forth from African-sounding music to heavy electric guitar chords, emphasizing the clash between Western society and African society. But it would still be entirely instrumental; music with lyrics is a dicey choice for action scenes.

One question: how do the demons actually know which sins the dead humans committed in life? It's not as if they're omniscient; do they read the dead humans' minds? Is there some aura about a person?

Well, one could argue that McNamara was a traitor through his insistence upon pursuing his own perceptions rather than acknowledging reality.

As for the demons placing people, they seem to be going on general fishing trips in the mind of humans, though it's sort of like me trying to listen to a conversation in Yiddish. There are enough similarities between English and Yiddish to get an idea of what's going on at certain times, but most of the conversation would sound like meaningless, out of context background noise.

Darth Wong wrote:

Darth Nostril wrote:For the scenes of humanity laying down the hurt in hell - Rob D's Clubbed to Death.
For the bombing raids - Chemical Brothers Galvanize "push the button!"
For DIMO(N) the earlier chapters with just kitten ... for some reason Ozzy Osborne " Lay Your World On Me" just hits the mark.
The armoured/chemical warfare assault - got to be Ozzy again - I Ain't Going Away.

I don't think so. If a movie version were ever made, a better choice would be to go with bombastic orchestral/choral music to overlay the action scenes. Rock music would be used as in-context background, not as main overlay soundtrack.

For example, we could have a shot of a Humvee driving through the Iraq desert toward the Hellmouth, and inside the Humvee the soldiers are grinning and listening to AC/DC's "Highway to Hell". It's the soldiers who would be listening to the music in the movie. Think of the looney Beach Boys music scene in "Three Kings".

An alternate method would be to switch from one genre to the other, the way the soundtrack for "BlackHawk Down" switches back and forth from African-sounding music to heavy electric guitar chords, emphasizing the clash between Western society and African society. But it would still be entirely instrumental; music with lyrics is a dicey choice for action scenes.

No, the first method works well, bombastic overview, zooming in to the individual soldiers listening to whatever, highway to hell works perfectly.
Do the same throughout, also reversed, from the soldiers listening to their favourite songs inside their tank, POV pulling back out and the song blends in to the bombastic overture of hell getting it's arse kicked.

Pelranius wrote:Well, one could argue that McNamara was a traitor through his insistence upon pursuing his own perceptions rather than acknowledging reality.

Like I said, tortured logic.

As for the demons placing people, they seem to be going on general fishing trips in the mind of humans, though it's sort of like me trying to listen to a conversation in Yiddish. There are enough similarities between English and Yiddish to get an idea of what's going on at certain times, but most of the conversation would sound like meaningless, out of context background noise.

Precisely. McNamara isn't going to be "Oh, hey, I betrayed the American people via my incompetence." He's going to be "What the hell am I doing here? Because I backstabbed a few people politically? They were asshats anyways." Very different.

Okay in Stuarts world, killing the Valk and AMB are mortal sins, among others but COME ON?

That is just an author point or something. I find it hard to believe garroting some sort of defense program is a huge mortal sin I mean, in that case Admiral Amelko woudl burn in hell because he didn't allow aircraft carriers to be built in the USSR for almost 40 years.

Somehow that doesn't look like an evil act on the order of Pol Pot, Suharto or Himmler, or anyone else from that bunch.

But who said Hell is really a rational place where retribution is based on the evilness of acts?

Darth Wong wrote:One question: how do the demons actually know which sins the dead humans committed in life? It's not as if they're omniscient; do they read the dead humans' minds? Is there some aura about a person?

If I remember from when they took the plateau, there was one demon whose job it was to 'read' every dead person and assign their final destination.

Stas Bush wrote:I mean, in that case Admiral Amelko woudl burn in hell because he didn't allow aircraft carriers to be built in the USSR for almost 40 years.

If he's dead in this setting, then he'd already have been burning in Hell just for not mentally blowing Yahweh...

Yeah, I know. I mean putting Strange and other people who didn't do really evil things into some special category seems out there.

Why DID the Soviet Union not bother about aircraft carriers until much later on, anyway?

Stas Bush wrote:That is just an author point or something. I find it hard to believe garroting some sort of defense program is a huge mortal sin Laughing I mean, in that case Admiral Amelko would burn in hell because he didn't allow aircraft carriers to be built in the USSR for almost 40 years.

How is that even a proper analogy?

Soviet Union builds a few carriers here and there, operates them when weather allows in their handful of ports. US Navy slightly annoyed but hardly challenged by the additional threat. Strategic balance of powers unchanged.

US Army gets funding for dozens of ABM sites, each complete with ~30 Spartan midcourse ABM's and 16 Spartan point-defense ABM's, to defend the actual ABM silo's and radar's -- literally thousands of missiles. Soviet military spends itself into oblivion trying to build enough ballistic missiles, nukes, command and control sites and silo's to outpace America's defensive deployment all the while trying to spam tanks to threaten Western Europe. (the Safeguard deployment was envisioned as 4 sites to defend our ICBM silo's only and the one that actually went up in ... south or north Dakota had 30 Spartan's and 16 sprints, a long range search radar and a shorter ranged engagement radar; the Sentinel deployment, itself was a neutered incarnation of national defense, envisioned 12 such sites. An actual national defense if we could extend Eisenhower's administration to 16 years or simply replace Kennedy with someone who wasn't a lying, conniving fuck equals at least these same 12 sites, probably 18, 24 or 30 though, and perhaps more interceptors per site.)
Strategic balance of power grossly in favor the the US.

I suppose there's room to argue if we focus so much on ourselves, that Western Europe might just be consigned to oblivion in a nuclear conflict, but it's hard to really do so much about that anyway, since the Soviet Union could probably spam way more IRBM's there than is ever feasible to defend and can put their whole Army in that theater of operations.