StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Once again, thank you Shroom. My post is up.


Re: Siege's last note to Darkevilme:

Oh nonsense. We all know perfectly well Olympic compiled the list of damages in milliseconds!

It is clearly only the slow development of the situation on meatbag timescales that prevents him from deciding which list of damages to append...


EDIT: And I see LoC9 has made a post. We'll see if he has anything to say here in Comments...

Olympic is just being a dick and making the Chamarrans wait some more. Olympic has all sorts of lists, but he just takes his time to show it, just to tick the alienoids off.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Olympic is just being a dick and making the Chamarrans wait some more. Olympic has all sorts of lists, but he just takes his time to show it, just to tick the alienoids off.

Well, yes to the first, sort of to the second, yes to the third in my assessment.

He's waiting to decide which list of damages to append on how much GROVELLING the catgirls do. Which, when one thinks about it, means this could get kinda tricky. Felines... not known for abasing themselves.

Trivia:
Shipmistress Arri's perspective is that they went for the escape pods while she asked Callahan to inform the Solarians of the whole 'they cannot board it lest the ship be self destructed' aspect. Callahan however did not send this message when an option to complete the mission presented itself, instead doing that which we've seen.

Conclusion: The Chamarran's should really reconsider the idea of putting CIs on their stealth cruisers as just like the Slylandro they somewhat suck at programming them properly.

Addendum: Though Arri is probably gonna get some extra ouch for sticking to this story. The only thing that could corroborate it other than her crew was first devastated by solarian viruses, then screwed over by chamarran logic bombs and then finally atomized and scattered across the Shinn Hokkaido system using nuclear weapons.

Addendum 2: You know Siege, considering how Arri and the entire crew of the ship are gonna be disgraced completely for this situation and therefore not in positions to know stuff beyond what you've already scooped out of their head...and how Chamarran's can be found anywhere which'd even let a juggernaught stop to drop off passengers due to the scattered faction of the original juggernaught fleet. I think you can get chamarran agents easier than this.

Simon wrote:"There are days when I just can't wait for the next Selection, you know that? Black Box willing, I think I'm going to retire. Go back to the lab and catch up on what I've missed since the War."

To what Black box are you referring Simon, something from your government's background or the Eoghan Black Box power source?

Something Umerian, critical to my government's background. It is, in every sense of the word, a "black box." The Umerian Black Box is not a power source. Its role in the government can be at least roughly inferred from the context in the passage you quoted: it plays a critical role in the "Selection" process by which new Technarchs are chosen.

It is a singular object; there is only one. It was conceived without any reference to the Eoghan Black Box, and indeed shares no feature with the Eoghan Black Box except that both can be described as black boxes.

The Umerians make no use of the Eoghan 'free energy' technology, don't understand how it works, and are probably at least as weirded out by it as the Eoghans are.

Sorry for the confusion, but I had forgotten about the Eoghan Black Box while coming up with this concept.

Darkevilme wrote:Addendum: Though Arri is probably gonna get some extra ouch for sticking to this story. The only thing that could corroborate it other than her crew was first devastated by solarian viruses, then screwed over by chamarran logic bombs and then finally atomized and scattered across the Shinn Hokkaido system using nuclear weapons.

Who says she will remember what actually happened, much less stick to that particular story? By the time CEID's done with her, she might just as well forcefully insist that Callahan went rogue and blew the whole op despite her protests, or something like that.

Addendum 2: You know Siege, considering how Arri and the entire crew of the ship are gonna be disgraced completely for this situation and therefore not in positions to know stuff beyond what you've already scooped out of their head...and how Chamarran's can be found anywhere which'd even let a juggernaught stop to drop off passengers due to the scattered faction of the original juggernaught fleet. I think you can get chamarran agents easier than this.

Not operatives of shipmistress level, we can't. The Directorate doesn't give a nickel about Joe Chamarra and how easy it'd be to grab him off the street and brainwash him. We're interested in high-level operatives we might be able to turn and let loose back into their home polity. And this is probably the first high-level operative we got our hands on in years (since I doubt CEID is very active in the Chamarran quadrant, much less able to mindjack captains without anybody noticing). Sure we know there's a fair chance she'll be locked away or otherwise useless to us in the future... The outside chance that she's not, however, means it's still worth trying to make a Manchurian Candidate out of her. At worst, we lose a few days worth of work. At best, we gain a truckload of future intel. It's an easy choice to make.

Of course, in this case the very ease of the decision, and the supercharged reputation of CEID, work against you: no one sane is going to trust anyone the CEID had a few uninterrupted days to work on for a moment, precisely because you've built your people up as the galaxy's preeminent psychic agents who can rebuild people's minds from scratch.

Honestly I'm not entirely sure that a "Manchurianized" captive could not be fixed over time and with sufficient numbers of powerful psionics working on filtering out the false memories and programmed mentalities. It won't be pleasant for the person being given the mental re-organization, but it is likely possible.

If anything, i bet CEID is only doing this because Chamarran Intelligence, well, they're not making anyone take notice of their skills given this event, you know? So there actually is a chance that the shipmistress will be given some kind of assignment, or placed somewhere, that CEID would find useful. OTOH, I'm sure they wouldn't bother trying this with an IBGV or SIS operative.

Steve wrote:Honestly I'm not entirely sure that a "Manchurianized" captive could not be fixed over time and with sufficient numbers of powerful psionics working on filtering out the false memories and programmed mentalities. It won't be pleasant for the person being given the mental re-organization, but it is likely possible.

The Chamarrans, specifically, have a massive shortage of psychics with which to do this. Other powers would be in a better position in that respect.

I imagine that the level of sophistication required to create, say, the Flower agents in Umeria would probably eventually be able to undo the damage done by this kind of telepathic conditioning, more or less. But the effort involved, and the risk that you "missed a spot" is such that you probably still wouldn't want to keep them employed in a sensitive position even afterwards.

The limit on this technique is that it only works well against societies that are inferior in esper techniques (and thus can't be sure they've fixed what the enemy broke). But such a society is liable to be very paranoid about the threat of esper conditioning, unless they are also very stupid.

Anyone here who's not familiar with IM services? I've found it really helps if you do use one - AIM, MSN, YIM, etc. - to help collaborate stories and common posts. It'd be nice to see more people available for such without having to rely on PMs.

Chamarran paranoia about psychics is pretty well known. And while they do have some psychics the psychic associations don't have the techniques to try and undo this due to not really having a research budget.

Also, I'm torn by recent events between defending my actions with the inexperience card and the realization that the game would be a lot duller without stupid and the worrying revelation that there is actually some cultural justifications for why the Chamarran's are really not that good at this sort of thing.

Steve wrote:Anyone here who's not familiar with IM services? I've found it really helps if you do use one - AIM, MSN, YIM, etc. - to help collaborate stories and common posts. It'd be nice to see more people available for such without having to rely on PMs.

Well, I just recently signed up for MSN. I'll PM you my address.

Interesting, Wilkens. Looking forward to more.

PM me toos Langleys! Or just add me, mine is in my profiles! LANGLEYS! ANIMU GIRLS! ^__________________________^

I wonder how these New Humanists are going to view the Commonwealth and the Commune, both of which using mechanical technology to accelerate human evolution?

Zor

Steve wrote:Honestly I'm not entirely sure that a "Manchurianized" captive could not be fixed over time and with sufficient numbers of powerful psionics working on filtering out the false memories and programmed mentalities. It won't be pleasant for the person being given the mental re-organization, but it is likely possible.

Of course. But it would in all likelihood be very, very difficult to determine what parts of the subject's mind are original and which were altered. The conditioning CEID buries won't be obvious; it's not like it'll turn the recipient into a drooling pod-person. It'll be very subtle multi-layered programming, buried in the subject's subconscious, built on pre-existing doubts and worries, with higher-level 'Manchurian Candidate' guiltless assassin modes activated only by pre-selected code phrases. Ultimately you might be able to erase the latter part, but I doubt you could actually remove all the alterations without also messing with parts of the subject's mind that CEID never touched in the first place. For example, the Chamarrans might encounter in Arri's mind memories of doubts about the viability of her mission and think "oh that's clearly CEID programming, let's erase that"... Except that part was already there, and the CEID programming is buried beneath it, so you're actually damaging the subject by wiping that memory, instead of improving her condition. And of course there's, as Simon pointed out, the threat of "missing a spot". So in the end, removing all programming might just mean you won't ever get your old agent back.

Darkevilme wrote:Also, I'm torn by recent events between defending my actions with the inexperience card and the realization that the game would be a lot duller without stupid and the worrying revelation that there is actually some cultural justifications for why the Chamarran's are really not that good at this sort of thing.

I'd prefer we roll with the latter, but it bears keeping the former mind. For us folks who've gone through a few rounds of the old CATO/MESS intrigue in the previous game it's easy to go into full blown "what is he doing that for, he must be up to something" paranoia mode, when it might just be inexperience causing someone to do something funny.

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:Well, I just recently signed up for MSN. I'll PM you my address.

Yeah, you can PM it to me if you like as well. It'll make coordinating future fleet movements and such easier .

Siege wrote:Of course. But it would in all likelihood be very, very difficult to determine what parts of the subject's mind are original and which were altered. The conditioning CEID buries won't be obvious; it's not like it'll turn the recipient into a drooling pod-person. It'll be very subtle multi-layered programming, buried in the subject's subconscious, built on pre-existing doubts and worries, with higher-level 'Manchurian Candidate' guiltless assassin modes activated only by pre-selected code phrases. Ultimately you might be able to erase the latter part, but I doubt you could actually remove all the alterations without also messing with parts of the subject's mind that CEID never touched in the first place. For example, the Chamarrans might encounter in Arri's mind memories of doubts about the viability of her mission and think "oh that's clearly CEID programming, let's erase that"... Except that part was already there, and the CEID programming is buried beneath it, so you're actually damaging the subject by wiping that memory, instead of improving her condition. And of course there's, as Simon pointed out, the threat of "missing a spot". So in the end, removing all programming might just mean you won't ever get your old agent back.

Well, not without the equivalent of turning them into a Umerian "strange flower" like Agent Rose: an agent whose entire mind has pretty much been taken apart and put back together from the ground up for the purpose of making them a more efficient spy.

At that point, I think it'd be most efficient to just throw these people into a gulag or revoke their clearances and have them retire or ditch them and let them work in a MacMillans or McNamara's flipping burgers, than waste time and energy and monies doing psychic tomfoolery to try and rehabilitating them when success isn't even anywhere near certain.

Bragulans deal with it by using beating-sticks to their heads. Repeatedly!

Shroom Man 777 wrote:At that point, I think it'd be most efficient to just throw these people into a gulag or revoke their clearances and have them retire or ditch them and let them work in a MacMillans or McNamara's flipping burgers, than waste time and energy and monies doing psychic tomfoolery to try and rehabilitating them when success isn't even anywhere near certain.

Bragulans deal with it by using beating-sticks to their heads. Repeatedly!

Exactly. You could do that, but why?

The problem is that you will have to watch them anyways, lest they start stockpiling fertilizer, ammonia and ball bearings

Steve wrote:That's what I meant. Aliens make up just below 25% of the Anglian population as it is, though that figure is divided between three races.

Ah, sorry. I read that as 'states with small alien minorities' - note to self, do not post while asleep.

PeZook wrote:The problem is that you will have to watch them anyways, lest they start stockpiling fertilizer, ammonia and ball bearings

True. But CEID could do that by kidnapping random people who would draw less suspicion than someone known to have been in their custody for days or weeks.

Also, at that point the normal policing techniques used to control domestic terrorism will be enough; it's a totally different problem from the security risk posed by a full-out Manchurian candidate.

A (relatively) high-level officer will still have friends and contacts who might be worked ; It's not quite the same as preventing your usual Joe Nobody from stirring up shit.

Of course, we live in The Future ; "Modern" technology probably allows us to monitor every citizen with unprecedented speed and ease even without any particularly intrusive measures ; A CI could compile and cross-reference information from public sources within seconds, after all.

In that case, there really would be no point in CEID brainwashing a person who the Chamarrans know have been captured by the CEID because the Chamarrans would then take precautions. So, because it is useless, the Chamarrans won't suspect the CEID to do it anyway! So when the CEID actually does do it, the Chamarrans won't be expecting it because the Chamarrans would expect that the CEID wouldn't do it because the Chamarrans would think that the CEID would think it was useless, because they know that the Chamarrans know about it and would take precautions about it!

The IBGV methodologies and enhanced double-thinking sees through all these! Agent Spozavik!