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The SW Rebels evidence shows two 'admirals' (perhaps different actual ranks of admiral) with the different types though as posted above, so there's that.

applejack wrote:I don't know if this is even still an issue, but this pretty much puts to rest the idea that the Empire switched over from one badge-rank system to another between ANH and ESB, doesn't it? The ISB Marshal in RO has the same rank scheme as Death Squadron, and would appear to be concurrent with the regional rank system used under Grand Moff Tarkin.

EDIT: Oops... missed Necronlord's post just above... LOL! But, no really, is it still a contentious issue? Because I remember reading about it on Saxton's site and largely agreeing with his assessment.

NecronLord wrote:The SW Rebels evidence shows two 'admirals' (perhaps different actual ranks of admiral) with the different types though as posted above, so there's that.

I don't remember it being a contentious issue as such, just the popular theory given that the badges were very much different between the films. But then there was Episode VI so, yeah. Consistency in Imperial rank insignia across the movies was basically zero.

As it is, I think it's safe to say now that with Rebels it looks like the two styles lived side-by-side and it's an exercise for the viewer what the difference means, if anything.

Galvatron wrote:I don't think it means anything conclusive. Tarkin had a rank badge with just as many squares. I can easily imagine that the Director of the ISB would have had one similar to that of a Grand Moff, whether before ANH or not.

You and NecronLord say Tagge's in the "Vader" comics with a promotion, right? What does his badge look like compared to ANH?

RogueIce wrote:You and NecronLord say Tagge's in the "Vader" comics with a promotion, right? What does his badge look like compared to ANH?

Hm. It's got the same colours and number of plaques as Tarkin's, but oriented differently. No cylinders that I can see. I wonder why. Maybe he just didn't wear them that day.

The following is based on the idea of preserving Saxton's analysis as much as possible. It could, of course, be totally wrong.

Galvatron wrote:

applejack wrote:I don't know if this is even still an issue, but this pretty much puts to rest the idea that the Empire switched over from one badge-rank system to another between ANH and ESB, doesn't it? The ISB Marshal in RO has the same rank scheme as Death Squadron, and would appear to be concurrent with the regional rank system used under Grand Moff Tarkin.

EDIT: Oops... missed Necronlord's post just above... LOL! But, no really, is it still a contentious issue? Because I remember reading about it on Saxton's site and largely agreeing with his assessment.

I don't think it means anything conclusive. Tarkin had a rank badge with just as many squares. I can easily imagine that the Director of the ISB would have had one similar to that of a Grand Moff, whether before ANH or not.

On his site, Saxton lays out three rank badge systems (as you might know). The one worn by the ISB agent conforms to Aesthetic 1 at Rank 6, Class 2 (assuming he doesn't have more rank cylinders under the cape), making him the equivalent of a Surface Marshal (ISB uses Army ranks, iirc). Tarkin's is Aesthetic 3 at Rank 7 Class 4, making him a higher ranking official. The ISB marshal's rank would seem to suggest that he is the kind of character that Thanas speculated on a little while back who goes around trouble shooting across the Empire since, iirc, Rank 6 Class 4 officers (lower than the one seen on the ISB agent) would be at the lowest level of command that can be transferred between sectors.

NecronLord wrote:The SW Rebels evidence shows two 'admirals' (perhaps different actual ranks of admiral) with the different types though as posted above, so there's that.

Admiral Konstantine's rank is consistent with that of a junior grade Fleet Admiral in Saxton's Aesthetic 1 rank scheme. This could suggest he's on loan from central forces to shore up Tarkin's forces while they're being retrained for the new equipment coming on line, or perhaps even due to Death Star preparations? *shrug*

Grint and Aresko are bigger problems than Konstantine, though, since they are of commander rank according to Aesthetic 1... Unless they're part of a larger logistics command structure (perhaps also from high command?) not wholly seen in SWR?

Admiral Titus could almost be considered a Rank 4 Class 2 "admiral" in Saxton's Aesthetic 3 scheme. However, the extra rank cylinder on his right side makes it problematic. I'm inclined to think of it as a blooper since he'd fit perfectly at the rank of admiral (commodore in Saxton's corrected labeling) in Tarkin's regional forces.

RogueIce wrote:

applejack wrote:I don't know if this is even still an issue, but this pretty much puts to rest the idea that the Empire switched over from one badge-rank system to another between ANH and ESB, doesn't it? The ISB Marshal in RO has the same rank scheme as Death Squadron, and would appear to be concurrent with the regional rank system used under Grand Moff Tarkin.

EDIT: Oops... missed Necronlord's post just above... LOL! But, no really, is it still a contentious issue? Because I remember reading about it on Saxton's site and largely agreeing with his assessment.

NecronLord wrote:The SW Rebels evidence shows two 'admirals' (perhaps different actual ranks of admiral) with the different types though as posted above, so there's that.

I don't remember it being a contentious issue as such, just the popular theory given that the badges were very much different between the films. But then there was Episode VI so, yeah. Consistency in Imperial rank insignia across the movies was basically zero.

Well, I'd make the argument that it was pretty consistent within episodes IV and V as individual movies. But yeah, ROTJ really screwed up the rank badges and I think we pretty much have to dismiss that as a giant mistake.

Galvatron wrote:

RogueIce wrote:You and NecronLord say Tagge's in the "Vader" comics with a promotion, right? What does his badge look like compared to ANH?

When does this comic take place? That's the badge of a Grand Admiral/General (see Thrawn's badge for reference). If this is after ANH, then he got a promotion.

Elheru Aran wrote:Hm. It's got the same colours and number of plaques as Tarkin's, but oriented differently. No cylinders that I can see. I wonder why. Maybe he just didn't wear them that day.

As applejack noted, this is identical to Thrawn's Grand Admiral insignia from Legends.

applejack wrote:When does this comic take place? That's the badge of a Grand Admiral/General (see Thrawn's badge for reference). If this is after ANH, then he got a promotion.

It is post-ANH and yeah, from what I understand of the story he did get a promotion (have not read the comics myself).

For ease of reference, I've compiled Saxton's rank tabulations with the titles and insignia on one table, since he has them on separate tables (though only including Navy and Army ranks due to size considerations):


(It's a quick and dirty job, so it's not nice and pretty hence the off-center insignia; but it gets the job done)

(I also dumped "Acting Sub-Lieutenant" in favor of Ensign because MURICA although I left Sub-Lieutenant alone to be nice )

[Edited at user request to fix image ~ NL]

RogueIce wrote:It is post-ANH and yeah, from what I understand of the story he did get a promotion (have not read the comics myself).

That's kinda funny considering how shocked he was at the dismissal of the Senate at the Death Star meeting. Tagge doesn't seem like a Palpatine fanboy and yet he becomes a Grand General. I guess he's just that good?

RogueIce wrote:For ease of reference, I've compiled Saxton's rank tabulations with the titles and insignia on one table, since he has them on separate tables (though only including Navy and Army ranks due to size considerations):


(It's a quick and dirty job, so it's not nice and pretty hence the off-center insignia; but it gets the job done)

(I also dumped "Acting Sub-Lieutenant" in favor of Ensign because MURICA although I left Sub-Lieutenant alone to be nice )

That's pretty good! Although you made a mistake with the Moff/Grand Moff ranks by giving them the same rank as Supreme Moff.

applejack wrote:That's kinda funny considering how shocked he was at the dismissal of the Senate at the Death Star meeting. Tagge doesn't seem like a Palpatine fanboy and yet he becomes a Grand General. I guess he's just that good?

Here's how it's explained in the comic...

applejack wrote:That's pretty good! Although you made a mistake with the Moff/Grand Moff ranks by giving them the same rank as Supreme Moff.

Whoops.

I uploaded a new version but I'm way past the edit window. I asked the mods if they'd put the new link in for me, since unfortunately Imgur does not let you re-upload.

Fixed image as requested:

applejack wrote:Admiral Konstantine's rank is consistent with that of a junior grade Fleet Admiral in Saxton's Aesthetic 1 rank scheme. This could suggest he's on loan from central forces to shore up Tarkin's forces while they're being retrained for the new equipment coming on line, or perhaps even due to Death Star preparations? *shrug*

Grint and Aresko are bigger problems than Konstantine, though, since they are of commander rank according to Aesthetic 1... Unless they're part of a larger logistics command structure (perhaps also from high command?) not wholly seen in SWR?

Admiral Titus could almost be considered a Rank 4 Class 2 "admiral" in Saxton's Aesthetic 3 scheme. However, the extra rank cylinder on his right side makes it problematic. I'm inclined to think of it as a blooper since he'd fit perfectly at the rank of admiral (commodore in Saxton's corrected labeling) in Tarkin's regional forces.

RogueIce wrote:

applejack wrote:I don't know if this is even still an issue, but this pretty much puts to rest the idea that the Empire switched over from one badge-rank system to another between ANH and ESB, doesn't it? The ISB Marshal in RO has the same rank scheme as Death Squadron, and would appear to be concurrent with the regional rank system used under Grand Moff Tarkin.

I don't think we need to invoke any special privilege for Konstantine. He commands at least three star destroyers; and probably more, and only appears after the siege of Lothal, when more ships are sent to Lothal. He's quite possibly just a regular fleet admiral sent by Vader.

Admiral Brom Titus is more interesting, as his rank insignia is not attested elsewhere. He commanded a single ship (the Interdictor prototype) in his appearance but it was experimental.

I I █ █ █ █ █ █ I I

And Agent Kallus seems to have had a change in rank between seasons one and two:

█ █ █ █ (Season 1)

█ █ █ █ █ (Season 2)

We never see him out of armour, so it's possible that the grey pin in his season 1 outfit is simply a place-holder and his regular insignia might be:
█ █ █

Which would make him comparatively junior in season one before being promoted up to what's presumably at least colonel in S2. I don't see an issue with Comandant Aresko and Taskmaster Grint being both Lt. Colonels.

It would make a certain degree of sense, after all if Kallus knew he was getting a promotion as soon as it had cleared the system he might have ordered the armor with with the slot for his new rank instead of the old one to save having to get a new breastplate once he got promoted.

He actually went up another step from a four pip to five, I suspect out of universe, they decided the grey pip didn't look good or didn't conform to the three colours in the movies and just changed it; perhaps it represents a retcon? Maybe a question for a rebels twitter feed, someone should post that question to Pablo Hidalgo perhaps?

Maybe he underestimated how much of a promotion he'd get from Vader turning up.

NecronLord wrote:And Agent Kallus seems to have had a change in rank between seasons one and two:

█ █ █ █ (Season 1)

█ █ █ █ █ (Season 2)

His new rank badge is two gold in place of the red, as seen here: http://starwarsmaven.info/wp-content/up ... essary.jpg

Which is a heretofore never seen before insignia. Of course since he is only ever referred to as "Agent" it could just be an ISB specific insignia.

Elheru Aran wrote:Hm. It's got the same colours and number of plaques as Tarkin's, but oriented differently. No cylinders that I can see. I wonder why. Maybe he just didn't wear them that day.

You know, it's altogether possible that the code cylinders have nothing at all to do with rank.

RogueIce wrote: His new rank badge is two gold in place of the red, as seen here: http://starwarsmaven.info/wp-content/up ... essary.jpg

Quite right, an error on my part; I shall edit.

Galvatron wrote:You know, it's altogether possible that the code cylinders have nothing at all to do with rank.

In the ANH style it's possible I think - but in ESB there are multiple officers who are differentiated by cylinders.

I suspect content creators don't know this, though.

NecronLord wrote:

Galvatron wrote:You know, it's altogether possible that the code cylinders have nothing at all to do with rank.

In the ANH style it's possible I think - but in ESB there are multiple officers who are differentiated by cylinders.

I suspect content creators don't know this, though.

Has anyone ever speculated that the badges may not denote rank either and may have been intended to be the equivalent of service ribbons instead?

Yes. Curtis covers this idea on his page, as well as the idea that gold pins specifically may not represent rank, but rather overwrite blue ones, and represent ideological purity or governate responsibilities. His page is well worth a read.

Main page

Medals and ribbons are awared, as seen in the TIE Fighter computer game, but they are almost never worn by officers on duty. Admiral Giel was an exception, but he was probably following a stubborn and deeply-rooted personal preference. Instead, a piece of insignia known as a rank plaque (as it is named in A New Hope concept art) sits on the breast where ribbons would be kept under any other convention. This badge consists of a rectangular piece of metal fitted with a combination of red, blue or yellow rectangular plastic buttons. Perhaps there is a deliberate implication behind this: rank is symbolically equated with the acculuation of unitary markers of merit. Decoration implies promotion, and promotion implies decoration.

I like that take.

Galvatron wrote:

NecronLord wrote:

Galvatron wrote:You know, it's altogether possible that the code cylinders have nothing at all to do with rank.

In the ANH style it's possible I think - but in ESB there are multiple officers who are differentiated by cylinders.

I suspect content creators don't know this, though.

Has anyone ever speculated that the badges may not denote rank either and may have been intended to be the equivalent of service ribbons instead?

Maybe...but man Piett got decorated as fuck in the like 30 minutes or so after he took over for Ozzel, didn't he?

(edit: which is to say I don't really buy into that theory, or at least not that they're exclusively used for such purpose)

New info, two new starfighters, character names:
http://www.slashfilm.com/rogue-one-character-names/
Guy in the white is apparently a Director.

I sure hope some of those pages are going to change. The TIE strikers should be rare models and the X-wings on the last page shouldn't be T-70s. Also, "Director of the Imperial Military?" That's going to cause a lot of headaches.

Additional follow up from the previous link, along with some better images.

http://pulse.therpf.com/new-images-and- ... wars-story

Maybe the T-70 isn't as new as we were led to believe. So much the better.

Maybe everything isn't sooo bad, involving the "Director of the Imperial Military" thing. It's possible that they delved into the EU comics a bit. If everyone remembers, Armand Isard was " Director of the Senate Bureau of Intelligence and the Director of Republic Intelligence, and he later acted as the Director of Imperial Intelligence". It's possible that the new Rogue One "director" is meant to be Military Intelligence and not simply just "Director of the Military". Which, considering the plot of the film, would make much better sense.

The Tarkin novel mentioned an unidentified Director of the ISB. That's who this guy should be based on his uniform.