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But if you build a house that was designed from the ground up with solar and geothermal in mind it takes even less. 7 to 8 years. I've lived where I currently live for longer than that. So have most people I know. I doubt the average person moves more than once a decade.

Its very common for Americans, especially Californians, to move that often. I agree incorporating new codes into housing makes sense and might work. But installing solar for older homes is usually not cost effective. The electric bill just is not that expensive.

Hell, my little 900 sq ft condo costs me less than $30/month and thats for both gas and electric.

MKSheppard wrote:

C.S.Strowbridge wrote: You've got it, 100%. I read a recent British study that said they will pay for themselves in about 20 years. Not bad for panels that are designed to last 25 years.

BTW, that figure was cut to 10 years if you bought the latest energy efficient appliances to go with the Solar Panels. But you really should do that anyway.

More like 100 years.

You forget that solar panels are made the same way computer chips are
made, through PHOTOETCHING, a very energy intensive process that
requires lots and lots of industrial waste too.

Lot of talk, any numbers to back that up?

C.S.Strowbridge wrote: Lot of talk, any numbers to back that up?

I'll conceede the 100 year claim. Seems that was
hyperbole on my part. Sorry.

Here are the stats:

http://www.nd.edu/~techrev/Archive/Fall2001/a2.html

"Thin film amorphous (uncrystallized) silicon cells are a second
inexpensive alternative to single crystal cells. Amorphous silicon
can be mounted on materials such as glass or metal, thus
facilitating mass production. Thin film cells such as these are
most commonly found on commercial electronics such as wristwatches
and pocket calculators. Unfortunately, these cells are quite
inefficient, converting only 6 to 7 percent of the sun's energy
in commercial applications. Also, thin film amorphous cells
degrade with time, losing up to 50% of their efficiency as they
are exposed to sunlight."

.....

"Unfortunately, GaAs cells are extremely expensive to
manufacture (gallium is rarer than gold). Also, arsenic is
poisonous, and many are concerned with the toxic wastes
associated with the production of GaAs cells."

http://www.ecotopia.com/apollo2/pvlever.htm

"2.58 ... years ... to ... 5.07 ... years" [to recoup energy costs]

Say 3.6 years to recoup the initial energy cost required to make
them, and then a couple more years for the buyer to recoup
the cost involved in making them. So all in all, it'd take about a decade
to recoup all the total costs...

And here's more info:

http://pub9.ezboard.com/fbabylon5techma ... =300.topic

"From the July/August 2002 issue of Engineering Dimensions (a magazine put out by Professional Engineers of Ontario)

"In the March/April 2002 issue, a picture of a photovoltaic panel
appeared on p.29 with the caption suggesting they may soon
become a standard feature on new homes. It's a nice futuristic
thought but the reality is that these panels are not as energy
efficient, or as environmentally clean, as most people believe.

I did some checking in my hometown of Thunder Bay and an
80-watt panel typically costs about $760 (including taxes).
Adjusting for things like cloud cover, etc. over a 25-year
peiod the power cost works out to 34 cents per kWh, way
above the average of 10 cents per kWh from the grid. The
actual cost is much higher once you add in other factors like
installation, additional equipment like inverters, energy
losses due to conversion (batteries, inverters), and of course
the interest cost. On a new home, financed at 7 per cent over
25 years, every $1,000 of additional cost results in a net
payback of $2,098. However, at leat the power is clean and
environmentally friendly, right? Sorry, but that is a common
myth not borne out once you look at all the facts.

The reason for the high cost of photovoltaic (PV) power
becomes clear once the total energy cycle is examined.
The higher efficiency panels require computer grate silicon
wafers as a base material, which is a very energy-intensive
technology, using a lot of electricity. Add up the total BTUs
of power needed to manufacture and transport the panels
and compare that to how much energy you get back over
25 years. You would end up actually getting back less
energy than you initially put in. (You have to include the
total energy cycle, for example, fossil-fuel-powered
electrical power plants are only about 40 per cent
efficient due to fundamental laws of thermodynamics).

A PV-powered solar home in its early years actually accounts
for more net carbon dioxide, sulphur, etc. emissions than
does a normal house connected to the grid. It only seems
clean because the fossil fuels burned to produce the
electricity to manufacture them have been released at a
different location. Electric cars are also not as clean as
is commonly thought, for the same reason.

Reducing the cost of PV panels will not occur just through
the usual assumptions (economies of scale due to mass
manufacturing). It will require a fundamentally new
manufacturing process, which lowers the energy consumption
by an order of magnitude. Unless I have missed some new
breakthrough announcement, I don't see PV panels coming
down in price by a factor of five as the author suggested.

PV panels under present manufacturing methods are neither environmentally clean, nor energy efficient but do have some
applications. They are economically feasible when you're in a
remote location and can't connect to the local electrical grid.
However, PV panels on the roof of every new home would still
require a major technological breakthrough, and is not
something we are going to see in the near future.
Gordon Scott, P.Eng.
Thunder Bay, ON."

*******************

So basically, solar cells are a rather shitty investment. The solar
cells made with non-toxic materials burn out pretty fast, while
the more sturdier, longer lasting ones utilize lots of industrial waste
to manufacture them, and that waste has to go somewhere. Ooops.

Also, it costs $10,000 in California for a 1,000 Watt system before
government rebates. After rebates, it's $4,000.

Lets check out that fossil-fueled standby:

http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN ... OID=348134

Coleman Powermate Features:



5000 running watts, and is portable, for only $499!

Now let's size the energy needs for your house!

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/products/gen/sizing.html

Central Air Conditioner 10,000 BTU (A necessity in Washington DC)
1,500 Watts 2,200 Starting Watts

BZZZZT, your Solar powered system just went dead.

Refrigerator, Average 600 watts, 2,200 Starting watts

Again, your Solar powered system went dead.

Coffee Maker 850 watts.

Wow, that's about 50% of your 1,600 watt system....

VCR 50 watts
Television - Color 300 watts

Geez, 21% of your 1,600 watt load.

Admit it, Solar power just doesn't work, unless it's
for a hunting lodge that you don't want to lug
gallons of diesel up there while you're staying there...

MKSheppard wrote:

C.S.Strowbridge wrote: Lot of talk, any numbers to back that up?

I'll conceede the 100 year claim. Seems that was
hyperbole on my part. Sorry.

Was it intentional? Cause I kinda assumed it was.

Say 3.6 years to recoup the initial energy cost required to make
them, and then a couple more years for the buyer to recoup
the cost involved in making them. So all in all, it'd take about a decade
to recoup all the total costs...

Oh no, a decade.

Do you know how long the average house lasts?

And here's more info:

http://pub9.ezboard.com/fbabylon5techma ... =300.topic

"From the July/August 2002 issue of Engineering Dimensions (a magazine put out by Professional Engineers of Ontario)
Gordon Scott, P.Eng.
Thunder Bay, ON."

That's strange. This man's conlcusions directly contradict the real world results when in comes to cost. Kinda puts in doubt the rest of the claims.

As for that efficiency, he claims you get less out of them then you put in, due to manufacturing costs, transportation, etc. But does he do the same with oil? How much energy does it cost to drill for oil? Transport oil to the refinement facilities? Refine the oil? Etc., etc., etc.

So basically, solar cells are a rather shitty investment. The solar
cells made with non-toxic materials burn out pretty fast, while
the more sturdier, longer lasting ones utilize lots of industrial waste
to manufacture them, and that waste has to go somewhere. Ooops.

Also, it costs $10,000 in California for a 1,000 Watt system before
government rebates. After rebates, it's $4,000.

Well, compared to what I pay, it would take 8 years to cover that cost. If you actually care about the long term that's pretty damn good.

Lets check out that fossil-fueled standby:

MKSHEPPARD! You can't prove solar power is ineffective, cause people are fucking using it now! The same way you can't prove Mike Wong can't run a Web Board, cause your using it right now. Why can't you see that?

C.S.Strowbridge wrote: Oh no, a decade.

For $10k+, I expect a damn quicker return on my money.

As for that efficiency, he claims you get less out of them then you put in, due to manufacturing costs, transportation, etc. But does he do the same with oil? How much energy does it cost to drill for oil? Transport oil to the refinement facilities? Refine the oil? Etc., etc., etc.

Because we don't have crackpots like YOU claiming solar power is the
answer and that it's clean and non-polluting.

MKSHEPPARD! You can't prove solar power is ineffective, cause people are fucking using it now! The same way you can't prove Mike Wong can't run a Web Board, cause your using it right now. Why can't you see that?

Same way you can't see that a $500 dollar kevlar vest is a good investment
as opposed to paying a doctor and an emergency room over $12,000
in hospital bills to dig the fucking slugs out of your chest....

For $10,000+ investment, I expect a quick, immediate return on
my investment. I expect to be able to go off the motherfucking
grid and be able to continue my motherfucking lifestyle with
NO FUCKING CHANGE.

Perhaps you like taking cold showers in the winter with your solar powered
house, but I like my showers hot, my house warm in the winter and
cold in the summer, and I like to run a washing machine the same time
I'm running my air conditioner AND computer AND (2) two TVs at the same
time.

AND I want it to work magically in an area where it is considered cloudy
2/3rds of the fucking YEAR.

Shit, For the price of a 1kW solar system, I can fucking put together
a 10kW Natural Gas powered Generator system that will only set me back
$7,925 as opposed to $10,000 for your pie-in-the-sky 1kW Solar System.

How about this.

I actually LIVED in the Backwoods of Humbolt California.

I have actually lived in an Alternative powered house. The heated water didn't work half the year, The solar cooker was greaat for jerky in the summer, but very pullutin fire stoves actually worked better. Actually they gave up on solar as being too much of a pain, and switched to Propane (very clean burning, and more reliable)

The layout and recoup for solar just doesn't work too well.

THe Yosemite Bear wrote:How about this.

I actually LIVED in the Backwoods of Humbolt California.

I have actually lived in an Alternative powered house. The heated water didn't work half the year, The solar cooker was greaat for jerky in the summer, but very pullutin fire stoves actually worked better. Actually they gave up on solar as being too much of a pain, and switched to Propane (very clean burning, and more reliable)

The layout and recoup for solar just doesn't work too well.

Tell THAT to CSS clone. He thinks Solar will save our worthless asses,
and that it is 100% reliable, and that it's just our dunderheaded
conservatism that's preventing it from suceeding.

Uhhh... CSS wannabe strikes again... Uhhh... I just had my dinner...
Clean, yes. Cost-effective? No.

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:Uhhh... CSS wannabe strikes again... Uhhh... I just had my dinner...
Clean, yes. Cost-effective? No.

I believe I have found our CSS Clone:



I didn't know they let prisoners have computers....silly me!

Isn't prison supposed to keep bad guys in so they don't infect society? It's not working...

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:It's not working...

Apparently not. I attribute this to a near-fatal overdose of
granola bars....

Actually I am waiting for materials tech to make Hydrogen burning feasable.

Cleaner yes, Safe, not exactly yet.

God, just LOOKING at this thread makes my head spin with all the CSS clone's stupid replies!!!!

THe Yosemite Bear wrote:Actually I am waiting for materials tech to make Hydrogen burning feasable.

Cleaner yes, Safe, not exactly yet.

What kind of materials would you need? Fuel cells are WAAAAY too expensive, you need all that Pt catalyst it would make it cost too much.

Personally I like the new veriable fuel cars a lot. The ones we have in yosemite are very quiet, and run on a desiel/alcohol mix.

THe Yosemite Bear wrote:Personally I like the new veriable fuel cars a lot. The ones we have in yosemite are very quiet, and run on a desiel/alcohol mix.

Those aren't bad. And I think the fuel costs should be lower.

Though the extra bulk of ethanol needed may somewhat mitigate that...

Also, something that gets lost is that for every bit of energy created by solar you still need a backup at a fixed plant because their are always rainy days, snow day, and of course night time.

Some solar type advocate storing excess solar in batteries, sorry. Im not putting a whole bunch of batteries in my garage. Wait, I dont have a garage. Okay, then that even more of a problem.

There are a couple of places where it makes sense to take advantage of solar. The Solar water heater we had at my dads house, made sense. It was not expensive like solar panels that produce electricity. Of course since it was already in the house when my dad bought it, it was even better.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Also, something that gets lost is that for every bit of energy created by solar you still need a backup at a fixed plant because their are always rainy days, snow day, and of course night time.

That it is how is supposed to work.When mass production will make solar panels enough cheap the investment will repay itself in very few years.At that point mounting solar panels ove the roof will become the norm.
Remember,the whole thing is not about making your home 100% self sufficient,but rather generating additional energy.At the current prices the thing is not convenient but things will change.

Originally posted by Duchess "I don't give a damn about human rights violations as long as they serve my political agenda" of Zeon:
No. He's never stood trial due to his health. In fairness you can say that's his lawyers getting him off on a technicality - But he's never faced a jury to weigh the evidence and make the decision, and said evidence has never been heard in court.

Well there was the whole extradition thing.

Probably around 3,000 people were killed during his 17-year rule of Chile, but he was facing an active Communist insurgency during that period, dealing with the armed militias that Allende had built up in Santiago's rust belt, and the Communist partisans in the rugged terrain of the Andes, who included the foreign volunteers - And between those two sources (Along with the initial coup, which included the innovative tactic of strafing the Presidential Palace with fighter jets), and genuine prosecutions and executions of Communist infiltrators, I don't think you're going to get serious human rights violations.

ROFL!!! You stuck-up little... add trade unionists and their families to that list.

Mugabe for example has undoubtably caused the deaths of many, many more people and the Left still praises him for standing up to "globalization" - There's no call from over there to prosecute him. But the Left demonizes Augusto Pinochet.

Ah the ever-mysterious "The left" that's responsible for all evil in the world and that's tirelessly working to undermine the world from within huh? Well as a proud left-winger I've got to say I think Mugabe's every bit as big of an SOB as Pinoche, and I could easily, if you wish, post numerous left-wing sources that agree with me.and what do you mean by 'over there'. Zimbabwe? Africa? Europe? The-mysterious-fantasy-land-all-those-evil-leftwing-people-spawn-from-to-tirelessly-attempt-to-destroy-all-that-is-good-and-american come from? Enlighten me here.

I'll post that explaination on Allende and Pinochet's takeover shortly. It'll be a book excerpt and references.

Yeah, and I'm sure it'll be completey and utterly non-biased.

MKSheppard wrote:

C.S.Strowbridge wrote: Oh no, a decade.

For $10k+, I expect a damn quicker return on my money.

So you'd rather pay more overall then pay more now.

Can you see why that's stupid? That's why American's are sufocating under massive debts. "Buy now, don't pay till 2004!"

As for that efficiency, he claims you get less out of them then you put in, due to manufacturing costs, transportation, etc. But does he do the same with oil? How much energy does it cost to drill for oil? Transport oil to the refinement facilities? Refine the oil? Etc., etc., etc.

Because we don't have crackpots like YOU claiming solar power is the
answer and that it's clean and non-polluting.

You never answered the question. How much pollution is created from the drilling, refining, etc. of oil? Only if you can PROVE that it's less than Solar Power can you claim it's better.

It's Oil is worse, then your arguement is, 'Solar Power is better for the environment, but not as good as some claim.'

And quite frankly, that arguement sucks.

MKSHEPPARD! You can't prove solar power is ineffective, cause people are fucking using it now! The same way you can't prove Mike Wong can't run a Web Board, cause your using it right now. Why can't you see that?

Same way you can't see that a $500 dollar kevlar vest is a good investment
as opposed to paying a doctor and an emergency room over $12,000
in hospital bills to dig the fucking slugs out of your chest....

Lets see if the numbers work out.

1.) You spend $500 on a BPV.
2.) You're shot an average of once every 3,000 years. (That's shot, not killed, and it includes suicides and other less BPV preventable injuries.)
3.) Every time you are shot, in the BPV (Not in the head, arms, etc.) you save $12,000.

On average it would take 125 years to recoup your investment, even if we make every assumption favouring your side.

For $10,000+ investment, I expect a quick, immediate return on
my investment. I expect to be able to go off the motherfucking
grid and be able to continue my motherfucking lifestyle with
NO FUCKING CHANGE.

So ten years is too long but more than a century is just fine. Moron.

Perhaps you like taking cold showers in the winter

SNIP!

You can't claim Solar Power doesn't work. We have real world examples where it does. Stop claiming reality isn't real.

THe Yosemite Bear wrote:How about this.

I actually LIVED in the Backwoods of Humbolt California.

SNIP!

Oh yeah! Ancedotal evidence, I'm so fucking convinced!

Ok, to sum up the collective arguments from the morons I'm arguing against:

1.) Some of you seems to think that without constant sunlight, solar panels won't work. If this was true the lights in all solar powered houses would go out at night. You really think this is happening? If so, put on this nice pointy hat and sit in the corner. You're too stupid to debate with.

2.) Some seem to think that if they can prove Solar Panels are not 100% clean and efficient that oil automatically wins. That's called a False Delimma. Pick up a hat and sit in the corner.

3.) Some of you seem to think Solar Panels don't work at all. They simple can't produce enough power to run a house. You argue this dispite all the houses that are doing that very thing right now. Hat. Corner. Sit.

4.) Some of you think 10 years is too long to wait to recoup your money. Some of you also think buying a BPV is a smart finacial choice.

Solar Panel = Bank Account. It's not a large return on your investment, but at least you make something.

Oil = Mattress. Your money's doing nothing but loss value due to inflation.

BPV = Lotto tickets. You're practically gaurenteed to lose money, but you might just hit the jackpot. Of course, you'll probably die of natural causes well before that, but hey. That's life.

Oh look, ran out of hats.

4.) Some of you think 10 years is too long to wait to recoup your money. Some of you also think buying a BPV is a smart finacial choice.

Have put your money where your mouth is and purchased an active solar system for your home?

My two cents: Years ago my family had a solar power system for our pool. It kept it reasonably warm but couldn't keep it as warm as comperable NG heaters that are also heavily used in Florida.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:

4.) Some of you think 10 years is too long to wait to recoup your money. Some of you also think buying a BPV is a smart finacial choice.

Have put your money where your mouth is and purchased an active solar system for your home?

I don't own a home. Kinda hard of hard to purchase a home on a students income.