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This doesn't actually sound too bad

000 wrote:

Chris OFarrell wrote:Sounds like shit. Oh yes the Imperial Remaint steamrolls the fucking rest of the Galaxy rather then the completly logical opposite

Given that the "steamrolling" takes place over the course of three years and over a hundred years after Vong war... why is this illogical?

"Empire" = resource poor area of the Galaxy with only a fraction of the population, shipbuilding, armed forces and technolgoy of the GA. Even if you assume complete parity on everything else, there is no possible way they could win, let alone drag the war on for decades!

the GA inteligence service shows itself ONCE again to be completly fucked

How do you figure?

Because:

1. They failed to find out it was the Sith responsible for doing what they did.
2. They failed to find out the Empire was preparing to go to war.
3. They failed to find out that a whole new frigen Sith order was in the works.

In short, they failed.

the IR think putting an Emperor on the throne again is A Good Thing

Why wouldn't it be?

Because they by all accounts had a stable Government with a happy population all through the NJO timeline, having successfuly made the transition to a more or less stable system of Government, where all the power is not in one mans hand. Especialy given that the IR and NR/GA has completly villified Palpitines reign and no-one even THINKS of them as 'The Good old days'. I recall as far back as the Thrawn Duology when one Admiral is talking about Palpitine, he spits at the name and wonders why he couldn't have died much earlier then he did and saved the Galaxy a lot of trouble.

In short, there is no rational for the Empire other then "OMG, lets bring back the Empire!!!!1111oneone"

the Sith magicly reappear from nowehere despite their line ending with Palpitine

Dark Lady Lumiya has been around in the canon since the eighties, and a confirmed Sith offshoot since the late nineties. Need I remind you also that it doesn't take a whole lot more than Sith holocrons and lore to start a new Order? Nadd did it, Kun did it, Revan did it, Ruin did it. It's not without precedent.

Ignoring the fact that Lumiya is a minor character very few people know or care about, she was nothing more or less then a Dark Jedi of less then amazing skill in SERVICE to the two Sith, not a Sith in of herself. Sith Lore and holocrons are not just bloody sitting on every planet waiting to be found. They were VERY carefuly controled and kept by the Sith themselves since Banes time. 'Dark Lord' makes a pointed note that Sidious kept all the Sith holocrons close to him, presumably they all went up when he did on the Eclipse/Byss.

The idea that she could find ANY Sith material of consequence when the Jedi quite actively tried to rid the Galaxy of it, when the real sith held it very close (read the Emperors holocrons on the Eclipse) and there were ZERO Sith left to show the way is absurd.

AND they join the Empire, despite strong evidence that the IR hate them even more then the Jedi for screwing up everything.

This is the only big qualm I have, since the Empire-- particularly the Remnant-- has never liked force users that much. Still, from what very little we know now, it seems more like the Sith jump in as an independant entity and ally with the Empire against the GA.

The Empire would have them put up against the wall and SHOT, they wouldn't accept aid from them in any way shape or form. They followed Palpitine because he WAS the supreme ruller by law of the Empire. They followed Vader because he was the Emperors right hand man.

If any old Sith showed up demanding an Alliance, they would first strap them into a Yalsamari frame, torture them until they told them everything they knew, then throw them out an airlock and fire their ships HTL's at them.

The Galaxy happily accepts the Empire back to rule it over a hundred planets teraforming being screwed up

This goes back a long ways. The Vong war made the Empire appealing to a large portion of the population, and it seems that many of the new generation (as of 75 rS) are feeling nostalgic for an Empire they missed being born into.

That is probably the most stupid thing I have ever heard in this thread yet. I truely hope that your just repeating what the craptacular writers have decided and not making this up.

The Emprie played an insignificant role in the Vong War, they helped cause problems in their rear areas, but it was the New Republic/GFFA who won the war. Hell the Empire tried to BLACKMAIL the NR for planets when you get down to it to get involved.

Now why people would feel nolstagic for a Government that blew up worlds to make points, unleashed bioweapons, BDZ's, was led by a man who started an all out Galactic war and controled BOTH sides, killing countless trillions....

Oh yes. Because the Empire has ISD's thus they are so kwoool!!!!111oneone.

Give me a BREAK.

And, once again, a hundred years is a long time.

No FIVE hundred years is a long time. A THOUSAND years is a long time. IF this happened five years after the end of the NJO, you might actualy have some points. The GA has been devistated by the Vong, Courscant is slowly putting the peices together an re-establishing Galactic society, the GA military is somewhat depleted, there is a huge deal of resentment towards the Vong and the Empire is actualy in preaty good shape, excepting one big Vong attack they were left alone, making war good for their econonmy.

They could be in a good position to help countless worlds in their part of the Galaxy, which were in fact the first worlds taken by the Vong and thus in need of the most help, leading to many of them perhaps joining the Empire of their own free will and letting it double or tripple in size with everyone happy.

SEVENTY years and all these problems would have vanished. The Government of the GFFA must be stable or it would have collapsed long ago like the NR Government did, meaning the people must be relativly content. We're taking three generations here who have grown up in relative peace and not in the middle of either the Empire or the Vong war. The Galaxies infastructure would have more or less been totaly rebuilt by now and the GFFA Government was *SPECIFICLY* designed to take the strengths of the Empire, Old Republic, New Republic and get rid of the weaknesses.

But no, everyone wants the Empire back! Yey!

(yes 100 planets out of countless millions and of course once again NRI's successors completly fail to discover who did it).

Just as Republic Intelligence never picked up on Bane's order?

Because they were complacent about the whole thing and were more or less a secondery arm to the Knights of the Old Republic who dealt with that stuff. I would also point out that a stable pair of TWO Sith are far easier to hide then a whole God damn ORDER of them, which is at least partialy made up of fallen regular Jedi.

The NRI in fact had a whole division called Observers who are on the watch on the countless planets of the Galaxy for groups aggitating against the Government. And as Bane proved back in the heydays of the Sith, whenever the Sith got large in numbers, infighting and disruption tore them appart.

The idea that Luymna could magicly wave her hand and prevent these problems from cropping up again is, yes you heard it, absurd!

The Jedi split. Again.

A split that's been in the works since the very beginning, and makes logical sense.

There has been a split between Pro Empire Jedi and Pro GA Jedi in the works from the begining of the Order....

The Sith somehow manage not to kill each other, despite the whole point of Darth Banes restructring of the order was because more then 2 Sith simply CAN'T WORK TOGETHER.

Revan's order did fine while it lasted.

I can't really say much about his order given that I havn't played much of the KOTOR games, but to my knowledge, it was still only a pair of powerful Sith lords in charge, with an army of relativly low power minions and mostly non force soliders under them, NOT an army of powerful Sith.

Kun's Brotherhood did fine.

And again from what I remember, it was a pair of Dark Lords (Kun and Qel-Droma) were the rullers of the Sith Empire, with a scattering of lesser servents and huge numbers of slaves (like the Massassi). Bane narrowed this even futher to the two Core Sith who would bide them time until the Revenge of the Sith could be secured, with the Sith in hiding and growing more powerful with each Generation.

Lady L on the other hand is building an order to mirror the Jedi order, with as many people as powerful as possible. All attempts at THIS self destructed eventualy even with the most powerful, skilled and wise Sith at its head, and Luymna is not anywhere NEAR that level.

The New Sith Empire held together for a thousand years and ruled most of the galaxy for a hundred.

Really? Form what I remember it was Mechu-deru and Belia Darzu again with a tiny scattering of minor underlings but mostly non force servents, a pattern we see again and again and again right upto Palpitine.

NOT a 'dark mirror' of the Jedi Order.

One again, it's not without precedent, and there's nothing to say that Bane had all the right ideas.

His order survived and were perceived as effectivly destroyed by even the Jedi Council in TPM, slowly waiting for the day when they would take their revenge, which happened with the destruction of the Jedi Order and them rulling the Galaxy.

I'd say he had the perfectly right idea.

In other words these are just Dark Jedi pretending to be a Sith, given that the real order is long dead and certianly almost all their materials, records and so on were destroyed...

Once again, an argument could be made that pretty much every Sith Order after the fall of the old Empire were pretty much "Dark Jedi pretending to be Sith."

Not really because in almost EVERY damn case, it was the Spirit of a Sith Lord who came to a Dark Jedi and converted them to the Sith ways, keeping the line unbroken. THAT is not going to happen given that Skywalker was redeamed from the Dark Side and Palpitines spirt was totaly consumed by the Dark Side leaving nothing left when he died.

I've seen Fanfics which have far superior plots to this POS.

Considering you haven't yet read any of the actual material, that seems a bit premature.

Yes and the fact that you ran into this thread and have been trying to present this new series a the best thing since sliced bread since day 1 kinda makes me think your impartiality is questionable as well...

I frankly don't give a damn if their new uber wank SSD is well designed or not, the universe is frankly dead to me.

Like I said above, I think the Super designator was an oversight and the PSD fills the same role as the old ISDs.

You completly missed the point. I don't CARE about the technology, even as stupid as a lot of it is.

It's possible that the Emperor is merely a figurehead in aa constitutional monarchy.
In any case, just because Palpatine may be hated doesn't mean the idea of an Emperor itself is villified. The fall of Napoleon and his exile in disgrace didn't stop the crowning of Napoleon III, for example.

Cao Cao wrote:In any case, just because Palpatine may be hated doesn't mean the idea of an Emperor itself is villified. The fall of Napoleon and his exile in disgrace didn't stop the crowning of Napoleon III, for example.

Except that Napoleon III clearly played up to his Imperial heritage in an effort to secure support - witness his raising a new version of the Imperial Guard, for example.

Chris, if you have that many problems with it before even seeing any of the material, then don't bother with it. I really don't feel like arguing.

I have to address this, though:

Yes and the fact that you ran into this thread and have been trying to present this new series a the best thing since sliced bread since day 1 kinda makes me think your impartiality is questionable as well...

I'm confused where you get this from, since from "day 1" I was skeptical of the whole thing-- read my posts eariler in the thread or on TFN's thread if you like. I just didn't comment at length because I dislike judging material I haven't read. I have changed my mind and am, at the moment, supporting the project, since issue #0 impressed me sufficiently. I reserve the right to change my tune depending on how later issues go, but honestly I think my opinion may be a bit more grounded than yours. Unless, of course, you've read #0 since you last posted.

Yes and the fact that you ran into this thread and have been trying to present this new series a the best thing since sliced bread since day 1 kinda makes me think your impartiality is questionable as well...

I'm sorry Chris, but this is rubbish. From day one people have been knee jerkingly opposed to Legacy, and yet their partiality is not in question by you, but someone's guarded optimism is? Apparently you don't have to read the material first hand before you can judge it to be lacking. You can just read the promotional material and so on and judge that to include everything not-yet-published.

I certainly wouldn't judge a series before its release, and even then there are such things as slow releases and time needed to get the feet on the ground so to speak. I certainly wouldn't be influenced by the doom and gloom some people have spouted because I don't care if they hate it or not, it's not my problem. It doesn't affect my enjoyment - or not, as may be the case - of a particular thing.

Well I *WOULD* judge a series before it's released, and this looks terrible. I reserve the right to change my mind, of course, but it's going to take more than name-dropping and uber-teh-k00lzor ships to get me reading.

Not that I'd ever buy it anyway.

Stark wrote:Well I *WOULD* judge a series before it's released

The Anti-Fun has cometh! Argh!!!

LOL Fear the... hater? Or something.

But seriously, this is another silly comic that isn't going to bring in any new readers and will drive away another fraction of the loyal EU peeps. Even if it IS a good story - and this shows why I'm the best hater ever - it would have been BETTER cut loose from all the EU baggage, and the 'lolz new Empire' stuff. It may well be a good story in it's own right, but it looks downright loopy as a part of the EU.

Which is actually good, since I hate the EU and want it to die. So, carry on Dark Horse! I'd like some more American Indian vs Predator comics too, by the way.

EDIT - I am also awesome, because on 1280x960 both the 'good story' phrases in my post line up. I PLANNED THAT.

EU-bashing is a long time tradition among the SD.net forums, especialyl for some people. *points at Stark*

You just deal wiht it the same way that you deal with say, Shep's existence...

Edit: Of course, Shep's not ALWAYS a pain in the ass, but still, you know he pisses people off because of how he is. IE Durandal.

I think people just want the EU to never exist in the first place, even at the infancy.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I think people just want the EU to never exist in the first place, even at the infancy.

Just past infancy wasn't too bad, since we got Thrawn Trilogy and Wraith Squadron.

The problem is that no one in LFL appeared to have actually read most of these books and realized how terrible they were. It's too bad the concept of Infinities didn't exist back then...

Shadowtraveler wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I think people just want the EU to never exist in the first place, even at the infancy.

Just past infancy wasn't too bad, since we got Thrawn Trilogy and Wraith Squadron.

The problem is that no one in LFL appeared to have actually read most of these books and realized how terrible they were. It's too bad the concept of Infinities didn't exist back then...

I think they are more interested in their cash pockets than the satisfaction of readers.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I think people just want the EU to never exist in the first place, even at the infancy.

Some people almost certainly do. Some still like it (or partts of it) even though there is alot of problems with the vast majority. And some people just like to bitch about things for the sake of bitching.

Just as there are the "EU over canon" loons and those who will shovel up any EU regardless of what it is.

It's not 'bashing' when you're just pointing out how silly it is. I mostly ignore the EU - except when it's releasing more hilariously bad fiction - and it's official continuity, so it's not like anyone can just wish it away. Or should I make some backhanded insults towards people who read terrible novels because there's 'Star Wars' written on the front? You know, to keep up.

Chris OFarrell wrote:

000 wrote:

AND they join the Empire, despite strong evidence that the IR hate them even more then the Jedi for screwing up everything.

This is the only big qualm I have, since the Empire-- particularly the Remnant-- has never liked force users that much. Still, from what very little we know now, it seems more like the Sith jump in as an independant entity and ally with the Empire against the GA.

The Empire would have them put up against the wall and SHOT, they wouldn't accept aid from them in any way shape or form. They followed Palpitine because he WAS the supreme ruller by law of the Empire. They followed Vader because he was the Emperors right hand man.

If any old Sith showed up demanding an Alliance, they would first strap them into a Yalsamari frame, torture them until they told them everything they knew, then throw them out an airlock and fire their ships HTL's at them.

You are forgetting that Pellaeon's personal aide/bodyguard/agent/whatever Miat Temm (who was wearing no rank insignia but still had the authority to order military officers around) has shown pretty decent force abilities in Dark Tide II Ruin. So at least Pellaeon was comfortable with using force-users, which seems to indicate that the imperial mindset has changed. I mean, if the previous ruler did it, why shouldn't the successor do the same thing?

Thanas wrote: You are forgetting that Pellaeon's personal aide/bodyguard/agent/whatever Miat Temm (who was wearing no rank insignia but still had the authority to order military officers around) has shown pretty decent force abilities in Dark Tide II Ruin. So at least Pellaeon was comfortable with using force-users, which seems to indicate that the imperial mindset has changed. I mean, if the previous ruler did it, why shouldn't the successor do the same thing?

But any force users Pellaeon used wouldn't be Sith or associated with Sith, especially considering the bad things that happened with C'baoth. Also, why would the Imperial Knights have anything to do with the Sith? Why wouldn't they just kill them. Since for pretty much everyone Sith=bad guys.

I got Legacy #0 because it was only a quarter, while it does seem to have some interesting ideas I don't really trust the EU after dropping the ball so many times. Also, as a comic book it looks like their focus will be on action-wanking and T&A, rather than interesting stories. Like how Voyager had some interesting ideas and dumped them for technowank of the week and T&A.

I have accidentally stumbled upon an advance copy of Legacy 1 on the net. So far it doesn't seem too bad, I only hope we don't get any Quinlan Vos 2.0 with Cade (he's ten years younger in this first issue, and still a Padawan).

Spoilers:

Darth Krayt attempts to annihilate the Jedi completely, "not making the same mistake Palpatine did", yet he also wants to capture some for possible turning, so basically, he seems to be making those mistakes after all.

He kills Emperor Fel (which turns out to be a double, so the real Emperor is still alive somewhere), and forces the Moff Council to swear fealty to him. His health is failing and he's worried he won't last more than ten or twenty years before some "thing" takes him over and make him "not himself" (whether this is old age, the true power of the Dark Side, a spirit or some other thing, is not revealed).
He's undergone immersion in stasis, probably explaining how he could have started the new order in 30 ABY, yet still be alive in 130 ABY. Darth Wyyrlok, his physichian, suggests using this method again, but he declines, wanting to continue his work with "bringing order to the galaxy" and be seen by the people, so he accepts healing meditation instead.
As for the Moffs, some are loyal to Emperor Fel, while others are just loyal to the throne or to their own agenda. Krayt anticipates that some will try to betray him and with much of the military possibly supporting Fel, he'll have enough trouble preventing the Empire from splitting up.

Don't feel like describing much of the Jedi's last stand on Ossus, but it was decent enough. Jan Duursema still has that thing with extreme eyebrows, which I'm not too keen on, but otherwise, it's good art. I also like how the Twintail doesn't really look like yet another X-wing, except for the split-wing design, in fact it looks more bulky and utalitarian. Ditto for the "Jedi shuttle" used to escape the massacre by the few survivors.
This event concludes the Sith-Imperial War.

Coruscant looks interesting. Definitly got some leftover growth from the Yuuzhan Vong, but it's more decorative than derivative. There appears to be a set of rings around the planet, is this the Rainbow Bridge?

The Predator fighters seem to come in two variants, the one with TIE-like window and some with striped panels instead.

Not much else to say, really, hope it keeps my interest.

Chris wrote:

Not really because in almost EVERY damn case, it was the Spirit of a Sith Lord who came to a Dark Jedi and converted them to the Sith ways, keeping the line unbroken. THAT is not going to happen given that Skywalker was redeamed from the Dark Side and Palpitines spirt was totaly consumed by the Dark Side leaving nothing left when he died.

Actually, the Sith line could still be unbroken. The Legacy Sith are based on Korriban, which as of Empire's End <shudder> is still haunted by Darkside spectors, any of which is prepared to convert a force sensitive angst ridden teen to the darkside. Palpatine actually goes to Korriban to seek the council, in a scene very reminiscant of Mum-ra! consulting the "Anchient spirits of Evil" TM.

Also, Exar Kun was able to instruct Kyp Durron in the ways of the darkside, well after the death of Vader and Sidious. Really, the Jedi should have had Korriban BDZ'd ages ago.

Saw a Legacies preview in the comics store the other day. Just... ugh.

VT-16 wrote:

Snip

I guess I'll have to wait for the comic to come out, but honestly, that sounds even worse than I imagined. Talk about a convoluted plot which knowing dark horse and comics in general will not even be addressed, let alone fully explained. Seriously a villian that more "EVIIIL!!!" than Palpatine? Oh, come on!

Seriously a villian that more "EVIIIL!!!" than Palpatine? Oh, come on!

What? That's not what I said at all, in fact, he seems reasonably mellow compared to Palpatine, Sith Lord-wise. :P

A Sith Lord who's altruistic.....

Why on earth do they have to bring up another Sith Lord that's like Revan?

VT-16 wrote:I have accidentally stumbled upon an advance copy of Legacy 1 on the net. So far it doesn't seem too bad, I only hope we don't get any Quinlan Vos 2.0 with Cade (he's ten years younger in this first issue, and still a Padawan).

Spoilers:

Darth Krayt attempts to annihilate the Jedi completely, "not making the same mistake Palpatine did", yet he also wants to capture some for possible turning, so basically, he seems to be making those mistakes after all.

He kills Emperor Fel (which turns out to be a double, so the real Emperor is still alive somewhere), and forces the Moff Council to swear fealty to him. His health is failing and he's worried he won't last more than ten or twenty years before some "thing" takes him over and make him "not himself" (whether this is old age, the true power of the Dark Side, a spirit or some other thing, is not revealed).
He's undergone immersion in stasis, probably explaining how he could have started the new order in 30 ABY, yet still be alive in 130 ABY. Darth Wyyrlok, his physichian, suggests using this method again, but he declines, wanting to continue his work with "bringing order to the galaxy" and be seen by the people, so he accepts healing meditation instead.
As for the Moffs, some are loyal to Emperor Fel, while others are just loyal to the throne or to their own agenda. Krayt anticipates that some will try to betray him and with much of the military possibly supporting Fel, he'll have enough trouble preventing the Empire from splitting up.

Don't feel like describing much of the Jedi's last stand on Ossus, but it was decent enough. Jan Duursema still has that thing with extreme eyebrows, which I'm not too keen on, but otherwise, it's good art. I also like how the Twintail doesn't really look like yet another X-wing, except for the split-wing design, in fact it looks more bulky and utalitarian. Ditto for the "Jedi shuttle" used to escape the massacre by the few survivors.
This event concludes the Sith-Imperial War.

Coruscant looks interesting. Definitly got some leftover growth from the Yuuzhan Vong, but it's more decorative than derivative. There appears to be a set of rings around the planet, is this the Rainbow Bridge?

The Predator fighters seem to come in two variants, the one with TIE-like window and some with striped panels instead.

Not much else to say, really, hope it keeps my interest.

So the Empire (which just got taken over by Krayt) is evil after all? And what kind of pussy Dark Lord of the Sith is Krayt, if he's this afraid of embracing the Dark Side (if in fact that is the "thing")?

Jim Raynor wrote: So the Empire (which just got taken over by Krayt) is evil after all? And what kind of pussy Dark Lord of the Sith is Krayt, if he's this afraid of embracing the Dark Side (if in fact that is the "thing")?

It's one of the paradoxes of the Sith Order; inherently, a Sith desires power above all things, and uses that power, in part, to perpetuate his own life, through both prowess in battle, and the simple extension of lifespan (life transferance and such). However, the Dark Side energies they tap into have a tendancy to devour and corrupt organic matter (as well as the sane mind, in certain cases), so in the process of gaining power, they are also decreasing their lifespan and general health (just look at Palpatine's worsening physical state). It is not unrealistic that some Sith might be given pause by this cycle.