StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Here's a question that I thought of as soon as I saw DETA... how much will the human Earth governments care, if they determine that they can plausibly keep it (much less the obvious bullshit) hush-hush at least long enough that when it comes out people will generally not mind?

*Thinking of wetworks and, for example, accused U.S. dealings with Nazi/Imperial Japanese scientists after WWII*

Edward Yee wrote:Here's a question that I thought of as soon as I saw DETA... how much will the human Earth governments care, if they determine that they can plausibly keep it (much less the obvious bullshit) hush-hush at least long enough that when it comes out people will generally not mind?

*Thinking of wetworks and, for example, accused U.S. dealings with Nazi/Imperial Japanese scientists after WWII*

Respectfully, I believe this to be an incorrect comparison for the following reasons. Governments will care and there will be a thorough reckoning for one simple reason: everyone has an emotional and personal stake in how humans were abused in the Hell Pit. Everyone has a favorite Grandma or Grandpa or other deceased relative who they now know suffered some form of unimaginable torment. The Earth is now filled with a few billion grief stricken and angry people looking for justice, whatever you think of the concept. That type of hue and cry can't be ignored or rationalized.

At the end of WWII a lot of those scientists and engineers could be scooped up because the victims were silent and/or far away (Manchuria, Poland). That will not be the case here when all the general public can think about is good ole' Grandma Bessie. Handshake deals then become pretty tough. Not impossible but tough.

This is my first post here and I just wanted to say that I've followed this story for a while now and it is easily one of the best I've read anywhere. Plus, the concept and plot are ingenious, and I consider myself religious and still think that. Thanks.

Glennfiddich12

Clearly you're religious, you drink some of the best scotch in existance now to make up for the lack of booze in heaven

Glenfiddich12, the point about rage and hatred toward baldricks is well taken, but considering the fact that we've massacred so many of them already, I have to imagine it would be blunted somewhat. What are we going to do, call for extermination of their entire species?

Darth Wong wrote:Glenfiddich12, the point about rage and hatred toward baldricks is well taken, but considering the fact that we've massacred so many of them already, I have to imagine it would be blunted somewhat. What are we going to do, call for extermination of their entire species?

No real need to do that, as long as the baldricks show that they know the magic words...

"Don't piss off humans, and always kiss up to humans as the new rightful masters of the cosmos."



Ed.

First, I want to say that I just recently discovered this story and let you know that I enjoy it immensely. The previous chapter with Caesar’s new legions was just awesome.


But I signed up to this forum because I wanted to ask about one aspect of the cosmology that I don’t remember being addressed anywhere in the threads. An aspect I think needs to be clarified in the story, even if only as a passing reference.

What determines the body possessed by the dead?

What I mean is the person's body:

1--the same age and physical condition they were at the moment of death (only with the regeneration eventually fixing any injuries/illness to keep them in good shape--for their age)?

2--initially as they were when they died but (due to the regeneration) eventually 'healed' to the peak of their body's physical development (roughly 18-22 years of age for most)?

3--maybe formed based on the person’s self-image of themselves at the time of death, whatever age or appearance that might be? (Which opens a serious can of worms, since many people have self-images that don’t match reality.)

4--or is it something else?


I ask this because some possible answers would have serious consequences among the living. The form you take once dead is the body you will have for eternity. If #1 is the answer then some people might see killing themselves around age 21 as a beneficial trade-off once Hell is liberated.

If #2 is the answer, then what happens to kids who die? Might they eventually age to their peak physical age? (I do remember the scene in Chapter 52 with the kids and embryos, but no one commenting on it said (or knew) for sure if they were stuck at that age. Indeed, having them able to eventually grow up would work well with the idea that kids and such were a rare delicacies for demons.)

Option #3 opens the door to interesting possibilities. It is also quite possible, since a person’s ‘soul’ is not (I think) dragging any DNA with it when it crosses over. If so, a serious industry would spring up on Earth, helping people create and maintain a pleasing self-image for when they die. It also opens the question of whether one’s self-image can be modified after death, or if the form is ‘locked’ when you die.

Oh, and if the body is somehow DNA-based, and the regeneration is good enough completely restore a body to ‘perfect’ health, then I’d bet that kitten’s going to be pissed.

Interesting questions. If I were a scientist in Hell, I would love to acquire a deceased human who had been killed again somehow, and then do a thorough examination on the body.

With their regeneration, you might just be able to vivesect one without killing him. If you could keep him under anaesthetic while it's happening and fairly guarentee he won't die in the process you might even be able to get somebody to volunteer for something like that.

Junghalli wrote:With their regeneration, you might just be able to vivesect one without killing him. If you could keep him under anaesthetic while it's happening and fairly guarentee he won't die in the process you might even be able to get somebody to volunteer for something like that.

Well, you could certainly get blood and tissue samples for analysis without causing undue pain or permanent damage. Extracting a large organ might be more of a problem.

For the heavier work, it would be simpler to just hunt down Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer and do your experiments on him, rather than looking for a willing volunteer.

Man, the demons just can't get a break, can they? I'm surprised the gorgons think the human leaders are members of the British Parliament in London, considering the UN Headquarters is in New York.

Anyways, I doubt taking out the British government's VIPs will improve things for the demons, as someone else (POTUS, the Canadian PM, a British Army general or Royal Navy admiral, etc.) will certainly step in to fill the leadership void.

Darth Wong wrote:Excellent chapter; it is always fun to see the political machinations. But I have to wonder if Deumos realizes that there has already been an underground "free human" movement in Hell for at least two thousand years, and its leaders will know that she has done no such thing.

Caesar, the de facto leader of the "free human" movement, is more likely to directly and discreetly confront Deumos about the truth instead of revealing it to the living humans, so he (Caesar) can negotiate a "gentlemen's agreement" with Deumos, one which will benefit him greatly.

dragonsey wrote:Oh, and if the body is somehow DNA-based, and the regeneration is good enough completely restore a body to ‘perfect’ health, then I’d bet that kitten’s going to be pissed.

Not to mention other tran-sexuals, addicts to plastic surgery, people born with surgically correctable birth defects (cleft palates and club feet come to mind), along with various other people who just ain't happy with the hand nature dealt them at birth...

Ed.

Sidewinder wrote:Caesar, the de facto leader of the "free human" movement, is more likely to directly and discreetly confront Deumos about the truth instead of revealing it to the living humans, so he (Caesar) can negotiate a "gentlemen's agreement" with Deumos, one which will benefit him greatly.

Benefit Caesar? Or Deumos?

I take your point, though.

And question... can a forming portal be hijacked before it's complete?

Can it be redirected, for lack of a better word, to a destination that the humans prefer?

Dumping a crapload of magma into the middle of Nowhere-in-particular, Middle-of-the-Pacific, Earth, would still cause many problems, but not nearly as many as torching a city. I think. Hmm.

Ed.

Darth Wong wrote:For the heavier work, it would be simpler to just hunt down Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer and do your experiments on him, rather than looking for a willing volunteer.

Yeah, I can see interested scientists making up lists of the most famous monsters in recent (and not-so-recent) criminal history and submitting their names for "Hey, will anyone really object very loudly if we perform a little vivisection on this waste of skin?"

Ed.

Glennfiddich12 wrote:At the end of WWII a lot of those scientists and engineers could be scooped up because the victims were silent

I can see at least one government trying to keep it that way...

Handshake deals then become pretty tough. Not impossible but tough.

If I could force a government official involved in such deals to have to testify on the subject, he'd probably look at his questioner like it's a child's question and speak very slowly, "That's why we try to hide it in the first place..."

Is there anyone else in Hell who could potentially be a rival to Caesar in terms of political gamemanship and strategic abilities? It kind of makes me sorry that Alexander the Great has probably already died a second time.

Guardsman Bass wrote:Is there anyone else in Hell who could potentially be a rival to Caesar in terms of political gamemanship and strategic abilities? It kind of makes me sorry that Alexander the Great has probably already died a second time.

Dozens, hundreds, thousands of them, I'd bet. But it seems Caesar is the one who was at the right spot at the right time.


Which does make me somewhat suspicious, especially considering that other "gods" have been hinted at who may be backing Caesar.

Well, the ass kicking that Satan has received should be enough to convince those other gods (assuming that they still exist) to simply lay off and make nice with us.

Or they might just simply be more or less disinterested observers.

Darth Wong wrote:Glenfiddich12, the point about rage and hatred toward baldricks is well taken, but considering the fact that we've massacred so many of them already, I have to imagine it would be blunted somewhat. What are we going to do, call for extermination of their entire species?

No, I don't see all that many people calling for a baldrick genocide. However, I don't see many calling for handshake agreements and the type of things we're seeing Petreaus do in Iraq with "concerned local citizens" either. Many people, including the most level headed, are going to demand that we keep the baldricks and their fellow citizens of hell under humanity's thumb for a while.

Now, as someone who's worked the civil affairs/psyops community, I can tell you that in this case that would be an awfully tough thing to do. As has been shown, Hell is a huge place and the militaries of Earth couldn't possibly occupy it properly. However, the political pressure in this case would be of an unprecedented scale, especially when families start coming to hell to look for their particular relative. Occupation forces would be better off working with whatever local human leadership figures pop up in the void (Caesar, etc.). Thatb would be much more palatible to the general public than some baldrick whose treated a human baby like a jalepeno popper.

Darth Wong - point taken on earth's interests in Hell.

As for the Baldricks: I don't really know that much about Caesar's campaigns, but the one book I have read about the subject spent a lot of time describing his massacres and enslavement of local populations in Gaul. If it was genuinely the case that he was bloodthirsty sociopath in his European campaigns, it seems likely that he would be less than merciful in dealing the demons. This is of course after the humans are firmly in charge of hell; he definitely as the good sense not to lose his Baldrick allies while they are still needed.

Sidewinder wrote:Anyways, I doubt taking out the British government's VIPs will improve things for the demons, as someone else (POTUS, the Canadian PM, a British Army general or Royal Navy admiral, etc.) will certainly step in to fill the leadership void.

This is a nation, that every year, commemorates a plot to blow up Parliament. While parliament's security's been known to be incompetant, you can bet your bottom dollar there are extant plans for what happens after such a catastrophe.

Speaking of these other gods, that line

This is how the angels operated,

when Lakheenahuknaasi called herself a goddess to the conspiracy theorist nut makes me wonder if these "gods" are themselves rebel angels like Lucifer/Satan who didn't join up in the main rebellion. While they seem powerful enough to keep people they favor out of the eternal torment, they may not be really "godlike" in power themselves.

Also, the baldricks: one way of making them less demonized (this story is so good for bad puns) as a species would be to show the public the kidlings, assuming they are much like human children, namely, cute and highly flexible in their learning. There are those little kidlings who were captured with Abigor, after all, and if they can unlearn that human are cattle and learn to play games with human kids, just take a few videos, send them around, and everybody goes "awww" and starts thinking that maybe they don't have to genocide the species.

One of The Magic Goes Away stories by Larry Niven involves what I think were called trolls, but turned out to be reanimated Homo habilae (is that even the plural? Well it is now). Might the orcs be descended from some earlier hominid species, such as one of the Australopithecines? Could even be one of the robust species not in our ancestral line, while the Baldricks come from later hominid stock.

For that matter, have there been any indications that the orcs are even mammals? I can't remember any details about them past "they were there before the caldera" and "they get eaten a lot."

For all we know, orcs could be sentient reptiloids from the age of the dinosaurs - who got extinctified and sent to HELL!!!

Nice chapter. It's going to be interesting to watch the demon leadership shake up. Abigor still being alive and in the allies favour should be interesting.

By this point though, it'd be interesting to know what date it is in this AU, is it already april? Is it may? How are countries outside the U.S. changing? The East-asian religions? China?

Second...the bit with kitten seemed force. I don't know how well it matchs anything else. It seems to add nothing except a bit of information about a non relevent character. Then again, with a serial novel such as this, thats not a huge problem.

dragonsey wrote:First, I want to say that I just recently discovered this story and let you know that I enjoy it immensely. The previous chapter with Caesar’s new legions was just awesome.


But I signed up to this forum because I wanted to ask about one aspect of the cosmology that I don’t remember being addressed anywhere in the threads. An aspect I think needs to be clarified in the story, even if only as a passing reference.

What determines the body possessed by the dead?

What I mean is the person's body:

1--the same age and physical condition they were at the moment of death (only with the regeneration eventually fixing any injuries/illness to keep them in good shape--for their age)?

2--initially as they were when they died but (due to the regeneration) eventually 'healed' to the peak of their body's physical development (roughly 18-22 years of age for most)?

3--maybe formed based on the person’s self-image of themselves at the time of death, whatever age or appearance that might be? (Which opens a serious can of worms, since many people have self-images that don’t match reality.)

4--or is it something else?


I ask this because some possible answers would have serious consequences among the living. The form you take once dead is the body you will have for eternity. If #1 is the answer then some people might see killing themselves around age 21 as a beneficial trade-off once Hell is liberated.

If #2 is the answer, then what happens to kids who die? Might they eventually age to their peak physical age? (I do remember the scene in Chapter 52 with the kids and embryos, but no one commenting on it said (or knew) for sure if they were stuck at that age. Indeed, having them able to eventually grow up would work well with the idea that kids and such were a rare delicacies for demons.)

Option #3 opens the door to interesting possibilities. It is also quite possible, since a person’s ‘soul’ is not (I think) dragging any DNA with it when it crosses over. If so, a serious industry would spring up on Earth, helping people create and maintain a pleasing self-image for when they die. It also opens the question of whether one’s self-image can be modified after death, or if the form is ‘locked’ when you die.

Oh, and if the body is somehow DNA-based, and the regeneration is good enough completely restore a body to ‘perfect’ health, then I’d bet that kitten’s going to be pissed.

Caesar's still balding. So it's not peak physical condition.

NecronLord wrote:

Sidewinder wrote:Anyways, I doubt taking out the British government's VIPs will improve things for the demons, as someone else (POTUS, the Canadian PM, a British Army general or Royal Navy admiral, etc.) will certainly step in to fill the leadership void.

This is a nation, that every year, commemorates a plot to blow up Parliament. While parliament's security's been known to be incompetant, you can bet your bottom dollar there are extant plans for what happens after such a catastrophe.

The British government's VIPs are not all in the same place anyway. Except for meetings they need to attend personally the military leadership is split between Northwood, Wilton and High Wycombe, while under the Emergency Powers ministers of cabinet rank have been dispersed to at least eleven protected H.Qs, as per the Cold War plans. You can bet after Sheffield and Detroit that it is unusual for the PM and Deputy PM to be in London at the same time.
Parliament was prorogued (along with the Scottish Parliament, and the Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies) as part of the Emergency Powers so the only people in there are caretakers and the police officers who guard it.
The Royal Family has also been dispersed to a number of locations, though the Queen has insisted on staying in London.
However a portal over the Palace of Westminster does threaten most of the UK's government departments, including the very important MoD.