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If you can discredit the Vampires claim that they can detect the Lying Darkness.. You are correct.

Now who's asking who to prove a negative, hmmm?

Rogue 9 wrote:

If you can discredit the Vampires claim that they can detect the Lying Darkness.. You are correct.

Now who's asking who to prove a negative, hmmm?

Irony sucks when you're the joke, eh?

Since several parties have shown they will simply yell 'DAMN TEH LOGIC! FULL SPEED AHEAD!' in the face of rebuttals, I'll just wait at the Unity Station for an answer, and then continue ICly.

SirNitram wrote:Hotfoot, I don't give two shits if you respond to the points or not. What is happening here is you are casually tossing out the most basic levels of logic.. The ones even politics and the media use.. Because it doesn't suit you to in the game. You are just making up excuses now.

If that is what you believe what I am doing is, then you are free to think whatever you want. I happen to think you are distorting my positions and attacking what you happen to think I am saying, instead of what I am actually saying. I'm not trying to throw out laws of logic, but rather enforce their use fairly. If the Veithan theory must be removed because of lack of evidence of shapeshifters, then logically the Hajr theory must be thrown out because of the lack of connection to the White Suns government.

I repeat. There is no evidence it was a shapeshifter. Until there is evidence it was a shapeshifter, this violates parsimony. Why? It introduces additional unproven unknowns. This is not a personal attack, this is the most basic tenet of logic. A Creationist was able to come up with this tenet of logic.

And by the same token, we have no evidence that the Sixtra was connected in any way to the White Suns government. Let's say, for a moment, we know that an Arab was responsible or involved. Do we attempt to figure out who is actually responsible for that Arab, or do we just glass a random middle east city in retribution? Yes, the LD case has flaws, I fully acknowledge that, but the original Hajr case has serious flaws as well. You have to make a leap in logic from defending one's territory to actively striking external threats in order for the motive to fit, for example.

There is no evidence the Lying Darkness was anywhere in the region. There's no evidence the Lying Darkness are in the quadrant. There is the testimony of a being who could, as far as anyone ICly knows, detect an LD, that they aren't involved.

And that can and will be tested in the future.

There is still no evidence it was anyone but the White Suns.

And the evidence suggesting the White Suns is inherantly flawed.

This is absolutely ridiculous. There is no evidence for anything but the White Suns being involved. All we have is hand waving and insisting that we take a conspiracy over the simplest explanation.

How many times should I repeat that the evidence against the White Suns was shaky as hell even before the possibility of shapeshifters was introduced?

"Look! It's a Sixtra!"
"Are you sure? We've had several dealings with shapeshifters in the past."
"Yes, we're sure! Look! It's a Sixtra! On the tape! Really!"
"We see that the tape has a Sixtra on it, but without further supporting evidence, it's not enough to go to war on. Heck, with this evidence, we could make a case which incriminated these guys we encountered a while back. We know they're still around, and that they want to raise hell in Known Space. The evidence fits both stories pretty well as it is."
"Nah, we knew about those guys. We're so badass that they couldn't touch us."
"Okay, fine, but it still doesn't change the fact that the tape is inconclusive. I mean, even if it was a Sixtra, there's no link to the Government. It could be a rogue agent, another shapeshifter, or any number of things, the point is we don't know. You have failed to provide proof that the White Suns are responsible."
"You violate Parsimony!"
"What?"

"It's simple. You claim we must throw out all visual evidence because there is a vanishing possibility of a shapechanger. You show no evidence it would be a shapechanger, ergo you have violated parsimony and failed to prove it."

"All visual evidence? What are you talking about? There is one piece of recorded evidence with a Sixtra. One. Where is all the rest of this evidence you're talking about, because it hasn't been submitted for review. If there was more evidence, preferably some from another source to independently verify that the being on the tape was a Sixtra and that he was acting in some way with the approval of any faction of the White Suns government, this discussion wouldn't be happening."

Simple enough for you?

I'll say it again.
"Okay, fine, but it still doesn't change the fact that the tape is inconclusive. I mean, even if it was a Sixtra, there's no link to the Government. It could be a rogue agent, another shapeshifter, or any number of things, the point is we don't know."

Harp on the Shapeshifter issue all you like, but you have yet to directly answer this point.

Hotfoot wrote:Harp on the Shapeshifter issue all you like, but you have yet to directly answer this point.

This sort of blatant lie is really what pisses me off here. I'm not harping on the shapeshifter issue at all. I am the one discounting their involvement until evidence is shown. But hey, this has been shown to be a 'WE HATE LOGIC' party, so I won't step on your toes anymore.

SirNitram wrote:

Hotfoot wrote:Harp on the Shapeshifter issue all you like, but you have yet to directly answer this point.

This sort of blatant lie is really what pisses me off here. I'm not harping on the shapeshifter issue at all. I am the one discounting their involvement until evidence is shown. But hey, this has been shown to be a 'WE HATE LOGIC' party, so I won't step on your toes anymore.

Blatant lie? I suggest that you check yourself.

You claim we must throw out all visual evidence because there is a vanishing possibility of a shapechanger

In response to:

even if it was a Sixtra, there's no link to the Government. It could be a rogue agent, another shapeshifter, or any number of things, the point is we don't know.

Please, do tell, where did I claim that all visual evidence must be discarded?

Oh, wait, I didn't. Since you seem to enjoy calling people liars, well hey, right back at you, you fucking liar.

I said, quite clearly and repeatedly, a single piece of evidence, WITHOUT ANY OTHER CORRABORATING SUPPORT, cannot be considered to be completely reliable. I have shown why, specifically, in this case, the single piece of evidence could be flawed with and without the existance of shapeshifters (you simply did not respond to any point not directly concerning the shapeshifting issue, and have fabricated claims on my end to continue doing so, case in point your above statement, which I have copied verbatim), and why it needs corraboration in order to be considered reliable evidence.

Is that simple enough for you?

Hotfoot wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

Hotfoot wrote:Harp on the Shapeshifter issue all you like, but you have yet to directly answer this point.

This sort of blatant lie is really what pisses me off here. I'm not harping on the shapeshifter issue at all. I am the one discounting their involvement until evidence is shown. But hey, this has been shown to be a 'WE HATE LOGIC' party, so I won't step on your toes anymore.

Blatant lie? I suggest that you check yourself.

You claim we must throw out all visual evidence because there is a vanishing possibility of a shapechanger

In response to:

even if it was a Sixtra, there's no link to the Government. It could be a rogue agent, another shapeshifter, or any number of things, the point is we don't know.

Please, do tell, where did I claim that all visual evidence must be discarded?

Oh, wait, I didn't. Since you seem to enjoy calling people liars, well hey, right back at you, you fucking liar.

I said, quite clearly and repeatedly, a single piece of evidence, WITHOUT ANY OTHER CORRABORATING SUPPORT, cannot be considered to be completely reliable. I have shown why, specifically, in this case, the single piece of evidence could be flawed with and without the existance of shapeshifters (you simply did not respond to any point not directly concerning the shapeshifting issue, and have fabricated claims on my end to continue doing so, case in point your above statement, which I have copied verbatim), and why it needs corraboration in order to be considered reliable evidence.

Is that simple enough for you?

If you weren't so set in your opinion, you might realize me not contesting it might be a single Sixtra acting alone means I don't disagree with it. Is that concept too complex for you? Here, I'll spell it out in bigger letters for you.

I CONCEDE IT COULD BE A SINGLE, ROGUE SIXTRA.

SirNitram wrote:If you weren't so set in your opinion, you might realize me not contesting it might be a single Sixtra acting alone means I don't disagree with it. Is that concept too complex for you? Here, I'll spell it out in bigger letters for you.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, since the Ravenlock have telepaths in-game, you must have thought that I was psychic as well. IF YOU DON'T SAY ANYTHING, I CAN'T TELL WHAT YOUR FUCKING POSITION IS ON IT. All I'm getting his shit thrown at me for things I never said, like that we had to throw out all the visual evidence because of shapeshifters. So the next time you decide to concede an argument, just fucking say it, and don't pull this bullshit of, "Oh, I thought since I didn't say anything, you knew I was agreeing with you, instead of just conveniently ignoring your point so I could continue to argue that you're a dumbass."

I CONCEDE IT COULD BE A SINGLE, ROGUE SIXTRA.

So you concede that the Hajr evidence against the White Suns as a whole is weak, largely unsupported bullshit? Fine.

Now then, please, do tell me, where did I say we should throw out all visual evidence just because shapeshifters exist?

I fucked up my main computer bad and its un-usable. Right now I using this ancient mini-laptop. it can't handle a lot of modern images or (apparently) Java, and I've also been regulated to MSIE (coming from mozilla ) not to mention its difficult reading on a 6 inch screen; So my posting will be kind of sporadic and of lower quality, and I can't view the map so my strategy will suffer. My apologies.

About the big debate, lets stop bickering and arguing about who killed who, but remember that the STGOD is supposed to be a happy occasion. All that matters is that the Hajr is attacking White Sun and the Alliance is going to fight back. That’s all that matters. When all is said and done, and a New Galactic Order will rise from the burnt worlds and broken swarms and no one will remember or care about why their homes were destroyed in nuclear hell fire. Lets remember that and concentrate on our IC nations' survival.

Hotfoot wrote:

I CONCEDE IT COULD BE A SINGLE, ROGUE SIXTRA.

So you concede that the Hajr evidence against the White Suns as a whole is weak, largely unsupported bullshit? Fine.

Now whose putting words in whose mouth? I said it could be. The Sixtra are still of the White Suns, and the White Suns are doing nothing to bring them to justice. Taliban and A-Q.

Now then, please, do tell me, where did I say we should throw out all visual evidence just because shapeshifters exist?

Where you categorically insist all video evidence is inconclusive because there COULD be a shapeshifter.

SirNitram wrote:Now whose putting words in whose mouth? I said it could be. The Sixtra are still of the White Suns, and the White Suns are doing nothing to bring them to justice. Taliban and A-Q.

The Ousters never asked the White Suns to bring them to justice. They never included anything like that in their demands. They just said, "You're guilty, pay in equal blood or money."

Where you categorically insist all video evidence is inconclusive because there COULD be a shapeshifter.

Oh, I'm sorry, WHERE DID I SAY THAT?

Provide a fucking quote or shut the fuck up and admit you're wrong.

So you concede that the Hajr evidence against the White Suns as a whole is weak, largely unsupported bullshit? Fine.

Now then, please, do tell me, where did I say we should throw out all visual evidence just because shapeshifters exist?

Yeah, but it's the ONLY evidence we have, and it points to one culprit. The Hajr must act.

I said, quite clearly and repeatedly, a single piece of evidence, WITHOUT ANY OTHER CORRABORATING SUPPORT, cannot be considered to be completely reliable. I have shown why, specifically, in this case, the single piece of evidence could be flawed with and without the existance of shapeshifters (you simply did not respond to any point not directly concerning the shapeshifting issue, and have fabricated claims on my end to continue doing so, case in point your above statement, which I have copied verbatim), and why it needs corraboration in order to be considered reliable evidence.

OF course it's flawed evidence, but once again, it's what we have. Could a lone Sixtra have done this? Yeah, with great difficulty, considering that their military handles all traffic with outsiders (so it would require a conspiracy, or at least heavy bribery, for a private citizen to get in touch with the humans and then smuggle them a giant nuclear bomb.)

The easiest answer here continues to be a White suns op.

Let's start at the beginning.

1. The Hajr is attacked, and releases evidence which points to the White Suns. Ergo:

2a. The Hajr is behind the attack, and the evidence is forged. Unlikely, the Hajr hasn't shown itself to be that crazy, but you may just think they are that crazy.

2b. The evidence is genuine, and the Hajr was attacked. Possible.

Ergo:

3a. The evidence is completely correct and that is a Sixtra agent. Possible.

3b. The evidence is completely correct, but it's a shapeshifter. Possible.

3a leads to:

4a: The Sixtra was a lone wolf (Unlikely, contact between humans and White Sunners is tightly controlled by the White Suns Military.)

4b: The White Suns did it. Shit.

3b leads to:

5a: The Lying Darkness did it. Possible, but the Vampires and the Hajr both say that they've been using arcane methods to track the Darkness. This can't be proven or disproven, but the Vamps have no reason to lie. If they ARE lying, we run into conspiracy theories, which fucks with Occam's Razor. You'd need to prove they are.

5b: The Dra'kol did it. They might have had the resources, but they certainly didn't have much reason to do it.

5c: The Vampires did it. They are Ouster allies, so have no reason.

5d: The Arcanists did it. There are no Arcanists left, so no good, and Dalamar is still locked up.

You've got 4b and 2a as the legitimate conclusions here.

I have a little idea about a post to end this once and for all. It would involve a group of Sixtra joining efforts with the LD (without the knowledge, permission or support of the Council) in order to weaken the Hajr by planting the bomb in the Hudson Trade Fortress, but in the last moment the LD decided to backstab the Sixtra by framing the White Sun. The Confederation will eventually learn this, but as the shit has already hit the fan and giving the Hajr the guilty would mean among other things disclosing the location of Haven Point they aren't going to say anything. What do you think about this?

P.S. This would also mean that the Vampires are a bunch of liars, but I don't think that this will shock anybody.

Thirdfain wrote:Yeah, but it's the ONLY evidence we have, and it points to one culprit. The Hajr must act.

OF course it's flawed evidence, but once again, it's what we have.

And that's pretty much, well, exactly what I've been saying. And the Veithan Report says it's not enough, just yet, to go to war. You can disagree, you can say otherwise, that's fine. Go to war. I've said this before. I am just tired with the way this whole situation has been handled.

This needs to be responded to:


1. The Hajr is attacked, and releases evidence which points to the White Suns. Ergo:

2a. The Hajr is behind the attack, and the evidence is forged. Unlikely, the Hajr hasn't shown itself to be that crazy, but you may just think they are that crazy.

2b. The evidence is genuine, and the Hajr was attacked. Possible.

Ergo:

3a. The evidence is completely correct and that is a Sixtra agent. Possible.

3b. The evidence is completely correct, but it's a shapeshifter. Possible.

3a leads to:

4a: The Sixtra was a lone wolf (Unlikely, contact between humans and White Sunners is tightly controlled by the White Suns Military.)

4b: The White Suns did it. Shit.

3b leads to:

5a: The Lying Darkness did it. Possible, but the Vampires and the Hajr both say that they've been using arcane methods to track the Darkness. This can't be proven or disproven, but the Vamps have no reason to lie. If they ARE lying, we run into conspiracy theories, which fucks with Occam's Razor. You'd need to prove they are.

5b: The Dra'kol did it. They might have had the resources, but they certainly didn't have much reason to do it.

5c: The Vampires did it. They are Ouster allies, so have no reason.

5d: The Arcanists did it. There are no Arcanists left, so no good, and Dalamar is still locked up.

You've got 4b and 2a as the legitimate conclusions here.

I will be unable to post anything for the next 12 hours. Then, I will have ready both the next stage of the battle of Talathrant and the post about the Sixtra that were actually involved in the Hudson incident.

Cool, but if you thrust up some Sixtra and say "here, here, these guys did it not us!" it'll look like you are trying to sacrifice some lambs to save yourself from your mistake. It'll prove nothing, and actually makes you look cowardly. You have EVERY reason to lie here, andd any race with weak teeps would be able to take one look at their heads and see it's bullshit.

Murazor, I don't think you get what actually happened. The "Sixtra" in the video was undoubtedly a genetically modified Blackeye agent like he's used in the Covenant of God occupation zones, though nobody knows about them in game. Therefore, there couldn't have really been Sixtra in on it, since the operation was entirely internal to the Blackeyes and Ouster High Command. Though, again, nobody knows this IC except Thirdfain and maybe Pablo.

Rogue9 is wrong, actually, our genemodding is only good enough to build human subspecies and fuck aboot with appearances. Sixtra look to rradically different.

We used another method, which has been Pablo-approved, to make the videos.

Thirdfain wrote:Cool, but if you thrust up some Sixtra and say "here, here, these guys did it not us!" it'll look like you are trying to sacrifice some lambs to save yourself from your mistake. It'll prove nothing, and actually makes you look cowardly. You have EVERY reason to lie here, andd any race with weak teeps would be able to take one look at their heads and see it's bullshit.

Quoting my own post a little above:

I have a little idea about a post to end this once and for all. It would involve a group of Sixtra joining efforts with the LD (without the knowledge, permission or support of the Council) in order to weaken the Hajr by planting the bomb in the Hudson Trade Fortress, but in the last moment the LD decided to backstab the Sixtra by framing the White Sun. The Confederation will eventually learn this, but as the shit has already hit the fan and giving the Hajr the guilty would mean among other things disclosing the location of Haven Point they aren't going to say anything. What do you think about this?

P.S. This would also mean that the Vampires are a bunch of liars, but I don't think that this will shock anybody.

I didn't intend to stop the party once started, but Rogue 9 has raised an excellent point. I will make my decision tonight and if I make my mind I will blame the Sixtra.

Of course, it isn't impossible that the LD fucked up again and was stopped by the Blackeyes, who decided to do it themselves.

Either way, there weren't real Sixtra involved, a fact that has already been established in game.

Thirdfain, I need to know the distribution of your forces and particularly that of the Fleet Tender. And what do those interdictors do exactly? Are they going to stop all my hunter/killers? Because then, they would stop your own kinkaid missiles.

Either way, there weren't real Sixtra involved, a fact that has already been established in game.

False. The presence of real Sixtra has NOT been disproven. No evidence has come out proving that the fellow on the tapes isn't a Sixtra.

Of course, it isn't impossible that the LD fucked up again and was stopped by the Blackeyes, who decided to do it themselves.

The Blackeyes? Who are they?

Rogue 9 wrote:Either way, there weren't real Sixtra involved, a fact that has already been established in game.

No, a hypothesis which has been suggested in game.

There's a subtle but distinct difference.

Out of character, we all know it was a set up.

In game, the best case is that we now have even more reason to believe that the Hajr are rushing into this, but NOT a smoking bullet that there was a setup.

That was the entire point of the investigation. Full stop.

Damn it, I'm not saying we know IC, I'm saying that Thirdfain has posted in game that it was a setup, so I fail to see how a real Sixtra could have gotten involved. This is all OOC. I am not going to use it in the game. I'm merely pointing out that Murazor's scheme can't work.

Thirdfain, I need to know the distribution of your forces and particularly that of the Fleet Tender. And what do those interdictors do exactly? Are they going to stop all my hunter/killers? Because then, they would stop your own kinkaid missiles.

Of course.

The Interdictors are set on wide-net, which stops ships but not missiles- but my fleet is outside of guided missile range (we are using ballistics on your fixed defenses.)

It would be hard to detect exact Fleet positioning at these ranges, but the Fleet Tender is at the heart, covered by Interdictors on it's rear and rear/side arcs, with the Attack Carrierrs and Cataphracts aiming their bows towards the planet and firing missile barrages. Escorts are clustered around the capships, of course, with squadrons of torpedo frigates remaining close to the carriers and cataphracts and Strike Cruisers providing support.