SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[Sea Skimmer]

So Stas, care to explain how you didn’t just contaminate the old dominion and risk contaminating much of the rest of the world when inevitably balloons are blown off course and malfunction? Wait, you fucking cant because that’s impossible without weather control and god like manufacturing quality. I mean fuck, with 1,500km of stand off you’d be hard pressed to hit the island at all, high altitude winds roundly exceed 100mph. Proubabbly some of your ballons and heading for your own damn territory.

[K. A. Pital]

So Stas, care to explain how you didn’t just contaminate the old dominion

I did. But go on and prove it was me. Astaria is a convenient shield. 2000 balloons? Let's make it 2500.

and risk contaminating much of the rest of the world when inevitably balloons are blown off course and malfunction?

They are on a fucking island. And yeah, I risked the contamination, but frankly, there are already thousands of balloons launched.

Wait, you fucking cant because that’s impossible without weather control and god like manufacturing quality.

Because yes, I didn't fucking care.

Yeah, right, that's because I'm sick of Shep and his bullshit excuses to have Shepistan soldier on. I want Shepistan to die and any collateral would be accepted. It's just too much to be left alive.

[Sea Skimmer]

So in other words, you do not care about anything, even preserving your own territory. And Shep is supposed to be the irrational one.. at least he actually aimed his bioweapons worth a damn. I knew this is what would happen, yet another round of ‘shep is killed by super weapons and we suffer no consequences!’ just like the way the last game ended. Well, fuck this stupidity, I quit. I wish I could say its been fun, but all fun evaporated around the time of the first war when it was clear people could NOT think any actions through. Fuck it, Shep is about the only one who does that.

[K. A. Pital]

So in other words, you do not care about anything, even preserving your own territory.

What a bunch of self-righteous crap from a person who threatened to shoot every single nation in the world with biological weapons if Sheppy-poo got smacked by the MESS. Yeah, you are amusing.

But fear not, endurance of a balloon is limited in days, and actually I see no reason for them to endure more than 2-3 days, which means there'd be a timer attached. Incientally the CSR is over 5000 km away from Shepistan. So fuck that shit.

And Shep is supposed to be the irrational one.. at least he actually aimed his bioweapons worth a damn.

Yeah, yeah. "Aimed"? If he made pinpoint strikes, Astaria would have survived with hundred-thousand losses. If he sprayed the shit at 50 km altitude of the SS-26, that's just flaying a giant cloud of anthrax over Astaria in the same fucking fashion

I knew this is what would happen, yet another round of ‘shep is killed by super weapons and we suffer no consequences!’ just like the way the last game ended.

"Suffer no consequences"? What a bunch of crap. Random contamination in the world will be much less than a dedicated concetrated bioweapon attack. And it's consequences could actually be dealt with.

Well, fuck this stupidity, I quit. I wish I could say its been fun, but all fun evaporated around the time of the first war when it was clear people could NOT think any actions through. Fuck it, Shep is about the only one who does that.

Like claiming he could down fucking stratosphere balloons at 600 miles away with BOMARCS?

No, fuck you, fuck Shep and fuck everyone who doesn't want to face the consequences of his action.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Wow... Looks like it's back to the civil shelters, everyone.

[K. A. Pital]

So in other words, you do not care about anything, even preserving your own territory.

Well let's see.

Shep does not care if his or the enemy's nation is killed completely, he is perfectly willing to drive war to the brink of destroying 100% of population of the enemy, and accepting a 100% loss of his own population.

Who the FUCK said anything about caring? Just get over this self-righteous tripe, Skimmer.

Shep does not act as a realistic national leader, but as an insane mass murderer. So now there's two insane mass murderers. And if you quit the game, fine. Let the door hit you on your way out. You should have been the first to notice Shep's bunch of BULLSHIT regarding the ability to resist a high-atitude balloon attack.

[Sea Skimmer]

Insane mass murders have led plenty of countries, your wonderful homelands Stalin comes to mind, and Hitler, who DID fucking effectively order his own population wiped out with his scored earth orders destroying all the water supplies, and Pol Pot to name a few. However not one of them was dumb enough to scatter bioweapons across half the globe in an unaimed attacked. You could have just used cruise missiles, which would work better in every possible way, but no you had to pick the worst possible option and ensure that if we want even the slightest pretext of reality, everyone has plagues now. Fucking great yeah? but yeah, since i quit, send in even more balloons and make you you don’t just kill every Shepistani, kill every last living thing! In fact you can start engineering a bioweapon to kill bioweapons until the whole planet is sterilized if life.

Yeah this is all so much better then just developing vaccines in game to the weapons Shep already released… so much better

[K. A. Pital]

However not one of them was dumb enough to scatter bioweapons across half the globe in an unaimed attacked.

"Half the globe"? What, you don't like the fact that your nation is inside the balloon's endurance scope? Fuck you. The Northern Hemisphere is well beyond it's endurance. And even then, a couple dozen releases wouldn't cause more than several hundred thousand deaths. And that in ALL the world. For any given nation the loss would be less.

In return, I slaughter millions in target nation.

Works for Shep - works for me. Considering the number of bog recon balloons which successfully crossed over 8000 km of Soviet territory before running out of endurance (42 out of ~700 launched), it's safe to say that some 4,2 tons of bioweapons are on the loose in the world. But that's not enough to cause total death, and thus I am satisfied.

You could have just used cruise missiles

No, because Shep lied his way out of the first attack claiming BULLSHIT several times. He would claim that he noticed ALCMs and then decided it's the CSR, and lob biodeath my way.

which would work better in every possibul way

Except it won't, since Astaria can't attack Shep with cruise missiles.

but no you had to pick the worst possible option and ensure that if we want even the slightest pretext of reality, everyone has plauges now. Fucking great yeah?

Not everyone, but yeah, quite a few nation will get plague outbreaks. Still those who are outside the endurance limit are safe. The O.C. is safe enough, and that's good enough for me.

[MKSheppard]

2000 / ~100 vessels in Astarian hands would be 20 balloons per ship, or a total of 40,000 cubic meters of hydrogen on every ship.

So every single merchantman he has is now some magic balloon launching doom ship? What was that about Astaria having no merchant marine essentially? Hmm? How can he somehow pull them all into port, outfit them with doom balloons, inflation equipment, and then sail all of them within range of Shepistan?

Operations operations operations, people.

Any large bulker could inflate a large number of them at once on-deck.

Didn't I just say that? So why are we repeating ourselves?

At about 1 hour, 10 balloons are launched from every ship, meaning 1000 aerostates.

That's only assuming Norseman somehow magically converts each one of his merchantmen into a balloon doom ship.

Also, it's pure bullshit that Norseman would even near his freighters to your "600" km limit - why would he be eager to get detected by your fucking radars or downed by your fucking BOMARCs, tell me?

Reliability of the flight path. You can launch from over a thousand KM away if you don't particularly care about hitting the right country; which isn't a problem with scientific high altitude flights; nobody cares if they end up in Poland or whatever when we aimed them at Egypt.

For a weapon, you need accuracy. Otherwise, you hit the wrong country and end up at war with them. A major MESS nation is right next to me. Oh lets end up at war with the MESS who is 1,000 times more powerful conventionally than us by sliming them too!

Shep, how long do you think the windward spread of spores can last at altitudes around 20-30 km? Do you seriously think they will just "evaporate" somewhere?

Hey genius. Guess what's really prevalent at high altitudes?

Oh that's right! Lots and lots and lots of really high intensity UV radiation!

The earth's atmosphere blocks 98.7% of it. Guess what? at 85,000 feet and above, you're above 95% of Earth's atmosphere essentially.

Mother Nature sterilizes it for me. Of course, Anthrax is remarkably hardy, so I'd give good odds of a decent number of spores getting down; but for the other diseases; nope.

The spore cloud gets trapped in the wind current and can traverse from 1000 km to 2500 km. Stop harping about "the BOMARC's insane range" - there would still be a huge fallout over Shepistan.

It'll take a while for those spore clouds to travel 1,000 to 2,500 km; and drift down. Long enough for the UV radiation at altitude to kill most of it.

However, the release of large concentration of anthrax over several hundred square kilometers would lead to multi-hundred thousand ilness cases. Even if we are looking at ~200,000 fatalities per release (a US estimate for rather small anthrax bomb attack against NYC), that's still a lot.

I've been to the world's first BioTerrorism attack site; the postal complex in Brentwood, where people were exposed to anthrax directly through physical contact and airborne contact. Out of 33,000 people roughtly exposed to it in some form or another, a mere 11 people became really deathly ill, and out of that, five died. Can someone do the math for me?

Even after they decontaminated Brentwood, they still found anthrax in parts of the building being used by people who weren't suffering any ill effects from it. Anthrax is not a magi-tech bioweapon. It's best characteristic is it's persistence; making it possible to put off limits large areas like mustard gas.

Also, it seems Shep bullshited about "detecting large RCS" of balloons: generally modern ultra-thin aerostate have an RCS of 0,001-0,01 m suquare RCS (of course, you can still down them, but not detect, track and guide a misseil to them at 600 km away). Polyethilene and hydrogen are tranparent for waves. Or am I wrong?

Hey genius; guess what's hanging from them? Oh right. Biological agent cannister gondolas. I don't think that Astaria has somehow produced magical stealthy gondolas.

I've personally spoken to S-200 and S-75 operators who tried to down recon balloons at ~32 km - it was extremely hard and could be done only at close range. Many balloons were simply undetected.

The S-200 and S-75 complexes are essentially 1950s and 1960s technology. We've advanced a lot since then regarding signals analysis. Next you're going to say that because S-75 complexes can't detect a F-117; a S-400 complex can't.

The USSR had a less than 20% downing rate versus 17-24 km NATO recon balloons, and the worst part: their large cargo loads were giving MORE RCS than the balloons themselves, which meand the rockets locked on the small cargo load but failed to hit the balloon. If they hit it, often they went straight throug, since several MKM thin hull would not be enough to set off the explosion hahaha.

Oh hey; if the missile locks onto the cargo load, then that means the cargo load is essentially destroyed; or shredded to such an extent it's no longer combat capable.
Secondly, you're under the impression that we still use contact fuzing or radar proximity fuzes solely on SAMs. This is 2000, not 1970. Modern fuzes are laser/IR based, allowing for destruction of low RCS targets, etc, and in general much improved reliability of proximity detonation.

1) Which radars of Shepistan are capable of detection of 0,01-0,001 m square RCS targets at ~600 km?

More like 1m2. Remember. Gondola? Unless you've magicked it so that the Astarian BW containers and their control systems are transparent to radar. Oh hey, can I have some of that nice radar transparent bullshittum?

3) Which missiles are capable of adequately homing on such an object? Which radar is capable of guiding them against such objects at altitudes over 30 km?

Hey genius. BOMARC has it's own active radar in the nose. And it's command guided via a datalink with autonomous attack capabiltiy. All I need to do is command it to "Fly to x area, turn on your radar at y, and radio back to me what you see, so I can process it and then radio commands to you on what to do -- go autonomous or continue commanded flight"

Secondly, the higher something is up, guess what? The further you can see it!

Really, if Norseman wanted a reliable delivery system, he wouldn't have launched 1,000 balloons. He would have launched a few cruise missiles from the decks of his freighters -- not a lot in each wave; 10 maximum. Why? Because that way you can slip through the cracks of the radar system.

It's happened with carriers in Wargames, the enemy waits until the carrier is recovering it's aircraft, then launches a single missile on the same vector as the incoming aircraft; and the operators on the carrier miss it until it's too late. You can't do that with four digit numbers.

4) Impacting debris from proximity explosions would pierce the balloon, but that would simply cause it to slowly lose altitude. Thus, you are forced to expend more than 1 SAM per balloon.

Wrong. The entire balloon will be shredded by high velocity fragments from the controlled fragmentation warhead on the SAM.

Modern SAMs have the ability to control their warhead's detonation so that they can spray the fragments or shaped charges (yes, some use shape charges) in the direction that causes the maximal damage to the target.

48N6 Shaped Charge example

You can see how the Fakel 48N6 SAM has a directional warhead which is aimed in the direction of the target to maximize lethality.

Adding insult to injury, unlike earlier primitave Fragmentation warheads, which were just randomly designed and thus produced a whole spread of fragments, with most of them being too big or too small, and thus inefficient, today's controlled fragmentation warheads are designed to produce the majority of their fragments in an optimum size for maximum area coverage balanced against maximum damage to the target.

So the balloon will resemble something even more swiss-cheesed than swiss-cheese itself.

Yeah, right, that's because I'm sick of Shep and his bullshit excuses to have Shepistan soldier on. I want Shepistan to die and any collateral would be accepted. It's just too much to be left alive.

So you just essentially attacked a MESS nation with a bio-attack. Real smart of you, Stas. Plus, all those balloons being blown off course will land all over the place.

Here's something grim -- If steve's retarded retcon goes through; it means that you only have vaccines and stuff against the most popular Shepistani strains -- NOT against CSR strains.

Congratulations, You just wiped out about 25% of the world's population conservatively, and collapsed the game back probably 25-50 years -- more like 100 years when my fail safe shows up and launches it's missiles into a world slowly collapsing.

For someone who is such a fucking mad dog; I took great pains to ensure that my bio-attacks were controlled so that they would not boomerang -- why do you think I chose to use Cruise missiles and SRBMs, along with bombs dropped from Tu-22Ms to attack Astaria, instead of simply sending 20 agents ashore into Astaria to insert cannisters of Super Smallbola into the ventilation systems of several major sporting venues?

[K. A. Pital]

So every single merchantman he has is now some magic balloon launching doom ship? What was that about Astaria having no merchant marine essentially? Hmm? How can he somehow pull them all into port, outfit them with doom balloons, inflation equipment, and then sail all of them within range of Shepistan?

"Doom ship"? Wake up Shep! Those are ultra-thin polyethilene balloons which require just a few tons of support equipment to raise, and they are raised in multitdes! The Soviet Aerostatic Warfare practiced simultaneous launches of 600 aerostates for Electonic Warfare, Recon and Deterrence purposes during wargames.

That's only assuming Norseman somehow magically converts each one of his merchantmen into a balloon doom ship.

Who cares, Shep! "Doom ship"? He just needs to put launchpads on deck and the polyethilene hulls into cargo holds. ALL. "Conversion" complete.

Reliability of the flight path. You can launch from over a thousand KM away if you don't particularly care about hitting the right country; which isn't a problem with scientific high altitude flights; nobody cares if they end up in Poland or whatever when we aimed them at Egypt.

Why would he even care? His nation is being totally killed.

A major MESS nation is right next to me. Oh lets end up at war with the MESS who is 1,000 times more powerful conventionally than us by sliming them too!

Shep, his nation is beind murdered in entirety by YOU. He wont' fucking think about collateral. Do you even understand what kind of example you have shown?

Of course, Anthrax is remarkably hardy, so I'd give good odds of a decent number of spores getting down; but for the other diseases; nope.

And I spoke about Anthrax. Which could get frozen up there and travel hellishly long distances.

Anthrax is not a magi-tech bioweapon. It's best characteristic is it's persistence; making it possible to put off limits large areas like mustard gas.

Yeah. Now imagine the whole territory of Shepistan contaminated. It would be impossible to decontaminate. Anthrax would become a recurring plague.

Hey genius; guess what's hanging from them? Oh right. Biological agent cannister gondolas. I don't think that Astaria has somehow produced magical stealthy gondolas.

Yeah, of course those are so huge as to be noticed from 1000 km away! No, you claimed taht the volume of the baloon makes it a large RCS target; now you weasel out. Fuck that.

More like 1m2. Remember. Gondola?

Okay, 1m2 for the gondola. With what did you pick it off at 1000 km away? How did you guide the missile there?

So you just essentially attacked a MESS nation with a bio-attack. Real smart of you, Stas. Plus, all those balloons being blown off course will land all over the place.

Yeah, yeah. So very deadly. 45 km ensures your technology sucks balls against this attack, and thus you are finally dead. I am satisfied.

Congratulations, You just wiped out about 25% of the world's population conservatively, and collapsed the game back probably 25-50 years -- more like 100 years when my fail safe shows up and launches it's missiles into a world slowly collapsing.

25% of the world's population? From some 4 stray tons?

Well, too bad for you and everyone in proximity, but most nations that I care about are outside the endurance zone of the balloons.

why do you think I chose to use Cruise missiles and SRBMs, along with bombs dropped from Tu-22Ms to attack Astaria, instead of simply sending 20 agents ashore into Astaria to insert cannisters of Super Smallbola into the ventilation systems of several major sporting venues?

Because you wanted to murder Astaria and Astaria alone. Hello dolly.

[K. A. Pital]

Basically, hearing this tripe from the bunch of people who threatened to bio-death the entire world, "or else", during the Shep-MESS war irritates me greatly.

At least the consequences of the spread of my agents will be controlled inside the Slavic National Confederacy since we would have vaccines.

As for the rest, well duh. They are an acceptable price to get rid of the bio-death hypocrites like Shep and Skimmer. Also, the CSR quits the game if Shepistan continues to survive against all reasonable odds.

When you claim "the world will die" from a few stray tons that could make it outside the Impact Crater Archipelago, you are essentially claiming that Astaria's attack would totally murder Shepistan even if just several tons were delivered.

Thus, Shep is dead anyway. You can't claim that the world will die from a few tons of MY weapons, but Shepistan is fine after several multi-dozen ton attacks

[PeZook]

Total death tolls: millions of people and two kittens

Your biowarfare made people at the factory sad and they screwed up the capsule! Now the kittens died! DIED!

[K. A. Pital]

Would the whiners be satisfied if the CSR instead launched Mach 3 CMs from a Kirov cruiser to disperse the same payloads over Shepistan, taking on the threat that elements of the Shepistani defense C&C might have still survived and they could cook up a retaliation strike?

If so, I would retcon the balloons to cruise missiles. But the whining about people murdered has to stop. When you decide to wipe out Shepistan and do it in a deniable fashion, you should be ready for collateral spreading around since the attack I was emulating is done in a dangerous fashion.

In fact, there would be 200-300 tons of Astarian bioweapons in the air, and I'm afraid the collateral from the Astarian attack would be... hmm... 10-20 tons or even more.

So would please Skimmer and Shep stop bitching about something that I did not start, but merely followed on to ensure fucking Shepistan of all places is dead? Adding another 4 loose tons to the 20 tons of loose bioweapons isn't going to change much.

The Impact Crater Archipelago will become a zone of total death, massive epidemics might happen in Frequesque if this shit falls there. Northern Hemisphere is mostly safe.

To be absolutely clear, fucktards: either several tons of stray bioweapons KILL THE WORLD, and in that case there's no need for my attack, since Astaria's attack would be sufficient to bring a few tons and murder Shepistain in entirety, OR several tons of stray bioweapons are NOT enough to kill the world, and thus Shepistan survives the Astarian attack to be later mass murdered by me, but REGARDLESS of that the world survives.

If several tons of loose BW can't kill off Shep, it can't kill off the world. If it can kill Shep, then I don't need to attack him he's already dead. I see now. It's all good until Shep survives. Several tons of bioweapons can't kill 90% of Shep's population, noes! But, it can kill the world! Yeah, yeah.

[Shroom Man 777]

I hope Alan Shroompard doesn't end up leik those KITTENS.

[Karmic Knight]

401 billion iirc

350 bn.

[K. A. Pital]

There, I retconned the attack to stealth cruise missiles.

The CSR accepts the possibility of us being indentified as attackers, though it's totally irrational considering I could've went with Norseman's method and no one could've even guessed it was teh god damn Crimson Star Republic.

There, I used a more targeted weapon, but simultaneously exposed myself to danger from a fucking genocidal maniac. Come on, Shep. I dare you. Biodeath the Crimson Star Republic in return with your pilots, if any are still alive, and let's get this done with.

I delivered circa 30 tons of biodeath. If you assholes claim that several stray tons would cause suddenly 25% of world's popuation to die and go back to year 1900, well taht's what happens with fucking SHEPISTAN, right fucking now, and since I poured 30 tons over it's entire territory over low altitudes, there's no fucking way to be saved. Shepistan is fucking DEAD.

And there's still the issue of loose tons of Norsemans' bioweapons. Come on. Blame me for that as well, there would still be plagues.

P.S. If possible, Shroom, retcon your post to missiles. I'm sick of Shep and Skimmer. I want to see how they respond now that this attack isn't causing collateral deaths in the Southern Hemisphere. Fucking hypocrites.

[Shroom Man 777]

Wait, what happened? Did the Asstarians use their own (Russian spec) bombers to launch their own (Russian spec) cruise missiles loaded with bioweapons at Shepistan?


It could've been anyone! Why, Comrade Stas, whatever do you mean?

[K. A. Pital]

Of course. It could've been anyone. And now people outside of Shepistan don't have to die.

I hope Shepistan is happy.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm happy.

Actually, I'm sad. For the kittens.

[Karmic Knight]

Since I'm building T-90's and will probably buy more modern tanks from Stas, I have decided to sell my T-72's.

I have 240 T-72 MBT's, who wants them?

How much?

[K. A. Pital]

To be perfectly clear: 1 gram of Weaponized Anthrax leaked in Sverdlovsk led to 66 fatalities. Imagine 65 kgs (50% of the average payloads) spraying anthrax in the air. Multiplying the fatality number x volume of anthrax (65000 grams x 66 dead) you get... 4 million. Multiply by number of warheads (around 200). That's almost a billion people murdered.

Anthrax is only not dangerous as far as it is in extremely low concentrations. We are talking about concentrations on the order of 100 grams per square kilometer. That's death plain and simple. That's not a single letter with a few milligrams of anthrax inside

And we have not even factored other diseases so far.

P.S. Yeah, I'm happy I retconned it now. The loose 4 tons of materials, even if it were around 2 tons of anthrax, would've caused ~132 000 000 casualties around the world, or 132 million people, the population of a large nation.

[PeZook]

Personally, I'm not sure the baloons would be such a horrible collateral threat. After all, we can shoot them down, too, and all Stas had to do was go "hey guys the stupid Astarians launched another attack, we detected something drifting towards you, better look out". Since, according to Shep, detecting those things isn't hard even at 600 kms (:D) we could've leisurely shot them all down (since they drifted in such limited numbers).

Besides, my country is under fucking martial law. We're not dying because of you fuckers...

[Siege]

We aren't either; moreover, the Frequesuan approach from Shepistan would probably take those balloons over Indhopal, which is a militarily competent nation and should be on the look out for those damned things, particularly after San Dorado photographed a bunch of them with a satellite. Hell, everyone on the god-damn east coast would be looking for those damned things.

I'm fine with a limited outbreak in the PRSF though, one could always slip through the cracks, but in no way is this going to be a serious problem.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, but it's only super-deadly when it's used against the world! When used against Shep, it fizzles quickly!

So only he can down it with BOMARCS! But people under Martial Law with dozens of S-400 batteries and huge OTH radars scanning everyting 5000-6000 km away from the nation can't notice those, or down those! Noes!

[K. A. Pital]

I'm fine with a limited outbreak in the PRSF though, one could always slip through the cracks, but in no way is this going to be a serious problem.

Several thousand people would end up dead.

Also, yeah, I find it ridiculous that Shepistan just downs hundreds of balloons coming his way, but people wouldn't be able to down a single stray balloon overseas? And suddenly 25% of the world dies?

Fuck Shep and his ridiculous shit; everytime it comes to him, he can't suffer, noes. The world, when faced with a few balloons, is expected to fold and die