StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Poor Lieutenant Barham. I imagine he'll have to spend a fortune getting those tattoos lasered out.

Ah... Abigor, somehow I think Stuart has something special cooked up for you. Like, oh say the fact that the bridge between Dysprosium and the palace has been blown up by a bunch of insurgents with access to their own portal generators, and neither he nor Memnon are capable of flight at this point.

Also, approx 99.9% casualties? Not even Napoleon got his ass kicked that hard. Ouch.

Damn, they almost caught Abigor. That would have been interesting. And I don't think Satan will kill him. You can't kill offf such a fascinating character.

I'm interested about this

Visharakoramal nodded and gently laid the Beast’s head down, then took his mate and quietly left. Abigor looked around, catching another three figures coming through the hellmouth. Two demons carrying a third whose legs had been blown off, probably by one of the mage-bars the humans had scattered. That was new also, the sight of demons helping their wounded. They must have learned it from the humans, at Hit, Abigor had seen how many humans would risk their lives to rescue one of their own who was in trouble. He’d seen the great Iron Chariots go places and do unimaginable, terrible things to help one of their own. It was strange, exposure to the humans was changing the demons in ways other than the nightmare of the human’s crushing superiority in weaponry.

I thought Abigor's adaptability was just due to him being a singular Baldrick. But apparently the survivors are picking up new ways of thinking too. Whether that has to do with Baldricks being unusually adaptable, or the Battle brutally selecting for adaptability isn't clear yet.

I'm hoping that the Baldricks are generally able to adapt, it would be nice to have an ally or two for whenever Heaven starts to take a hand. I just have a mental image of a Baldrick with it's superior physique slinging an AT-4 as casually as a human would carry a rifle. Of course that's getting a little ahead of the action, Humanity still need to smash the baldricks and convince them they're on the wrong side.

The Vortex Empire wrote:Damn, they almost caught Abigor. That would have been interesting. And I don't think Satan will kill him. You can't kill offf such a fascinating character.

Well, you can, if you want to put it in the readers' minds that major characters are in real jeopardy, but you usually only do that when the character's arc is winding down and his death is more useful than anything you could have done with him later. That doesn't seem to be the case with Abigor. He's a sympathetic character with insight into Hell's ruling elite; there's nobody else who can perform that role. Though if I were Stuart, I might be tempted to drop all kinds of hints that Abigor will live, kill him anyway, and then introduce someone new to fill that role, just to keep the readers on their toes. But then again, I killed almost all of my viewpoint characters and destroyed Earth in my last novel, so killing characters is something of a habit with me.

I don't think that Abigor is totally replaceable though. Not because he knows how things work in Hell, but because he's brought absolutely vital intelligence back with him. If Satan summarily offs him in a fit of rage, all of the invaluable lessons Abigor learned will have been wasted, and future engagements between Hell and humanity will become very stale, very fast.

And while he hasn't demonstrated much sense so far, Satan can't be a total idiot. In fact, he's actually supposed to be really clever.

Darth Raptor wrote:I don't think that Abigor is totally replaceable though. Not because he knows how things work in Hell, but because he's brought absolutely vital intelligence back with him. If Satan summarily offs him in a fit of rage, all of the invaluable lessons Abigor learned will have been wasted, and future engagements between Hell and humanity will become very stale, very fast.

And while he hasn't demonstrated much sense so far, Satan can't be a total idiot. In fact, he's actually supposed to be really clever.

Everything has been ludicrous to him up to this point. "Mere humans? Do that? You idiot!" No different than Darth Vader strangling someone for rampant stupidity. When Abigor comes back and says 400 Baldricks out of an army of 400,000 came back to Hell? Then Satan will be confronted with something that cannot be denied, and has to be confronted. I suspect we'll see his clever side come out then.

When you put it that way, coming back with 99.9% losses is just insane. When was the last time a modern army took that sort of beating? Has any army EVER been that completely destroyed?

This must be implemented. Roman Legions in JEEPS

Anyone else thinking that Abigor will survive, and once the other Dukes have been humans firepower firsthand he may lead a coup to dispose of Satan and come to a negotiated peace? The individual demons seem to be human like enough that they will not fight to the bitter end if given the chance to do otherwise. But its going to take millions of losses to reach this point.

Stuart wrote:
So. all the effort, at this time, is going into trying to mobilize as much in the way of air and land assets as possible. Bringing back the battleships is definately out at this time; they require too much work, too much manpower and their use is too limited.

I really don’t see why ~100 men couldn’t be put to work on each one to at least begin stripping out the work done to make them museums and bringing the main batteries into a state fit for operations. Like I said before, we can mobilize mere manpower faster then we can train, arm and properly equip it. That was the case in WW1 and WW2 and heck even the Korean War.

We also need to worry about more then just demons and heaven. I cannot think that even The Message was actually enough to make all of humanity unite. All sorts of wars may be breaking out around the global which must be squashed to ensure freedom of the seas, and access to raw materials.

After all, what can their main guns do that a MLRS battery cannot? MLRS outranges them (using ATACMS), can deliver more in the way of submunition payload and is land-mobile. Also air-transportable. Battleship main guns score on rate of fire (average for a battleship gun is one round every 90 seconds max as opposed to one salvo of rockets every 9 minutes) but that's all.

Fire from the sea, you sure aren’t going to do that with MLRS without designing a new launcher, and the navalized MLRS rocket POLAR is out of the question since it must have GPS guidance. Also battleship guns have superior accuracy compared to the 20 mil dispersion of MLRS, this will matter at times. The dud issue is also non trivial. You quoted 2% duds for MLRS earlier, but only the newest rockets have any chance of reaching such a low dud rate. Most of the rockets in the inventory are older and will produce as many as 10% duds, if they get fired into a forest which can snag the streamers this rate can increase 20%.

As for ATACMS, they simply aren’t that numerous. Total production is around 2,500 missiles, including several hundred rounds for export and about 550 rounds fired in combat in both wars with Iraq. I have no idea how quickly production rates could be expanded, but it’s not exactly a simple small weapon. The newer longer ranged ones also all have GPS guidance which won’t work in hell, and I don’t think firing using INS only guidance will work either. This is because the long range missile (MGM-140B) takes a non ballistic trajectory to the target, it climbs steeply just after launch and then glides the rest of the way using those potato masher fins we licensed from the Reds. Anyway though, your story, your call, and I eagerly wait more of it even if you sink Iowa as a breakwater for an artificial harbor in hell!

Gerald Tarrant wrote:I'm interested about this

Visharakoramal nodded and gently laid the Beast’s head down, then took his mate and quietly left. Abigor looked around, catching another three figures coming through the hellmouth. Two demons carrying a third whose legs had been blown off, probably by one of the mage-bars the humans had scattered. That was new also, the sight of demons helping their wounded. They must have learned it from the humans, at Hit, Abigor had seen how many humans would risk their lives to rescue one of their own who was in trouble. He’d seen the great Iron Chariots go places and do unimaginable, terrible things to help one of their own. It was strange, exposure to the humans was changing the demons in ways other than the nightmare of the human’s crushing superiority in weaponry.

I thought Abigor's adaptability was just due to him being a singular Baldrick. But apparently the survivors are picking up new ways of thinking too. Whether that has to do with Baldricks being unusually adaptable, or the Battle brutally selecting for adaptability isn't clear yet.

A third possibility is simply that this is a common instinctive behaviour of intelligent beings when facing great dangers, and that it has been submerged beneath layers of socialization among the long-lived denizens of Hell with their rules of conduct. In short, the idea of seeing their kind wiped out en masse has simply never occurred to them, and the reality of same has triggered tribal and fraternal instincts long buried.

Exactly. Demons havn't NEEDED to be compassionate towards each-other until now. They inflicted easily-regenerated wounds on each-other, and always gave quarter when asked. In a way, it was rather 'gentlemanly' if you'll pardon the term. Now, fighting the humans, playtime is over.

Darth Wong wrote:

Surlethe wrote:TK is the straightforward interpretation, but given the theme that there is no magic, only science we don't understand, I'm hesitant to assume that angels have magic psychic powers when plausible alternate explanations exist. The technobabble for mind control stretches SoD far enough, IMO.

It's not physically impossible for a human-sized creature to be strong enough to push/shove Memnon across a room, provided his feet are well-anchored to the ground. People seem to be acting as if he's on ice skates or something, so his mass must be greatly superior to Memnon's mass in order to pull this off. It's not going to happen with actual human physiology, but we don't really know much about angelic physiology. Are they necessarily capable of flying, or are the wings decorative?

If Appoloin's feet were well-anchored to the ground, that certainly makes sense. But the way it was described in the story, where he didn't even look up from sipping his tea and just waved his hand in the baldrick's face? Kneeling on the ground and undisturbedly drinking tea does not strike me as well-anchored.

And I'll bet they're not capable of flying; IIRC, it's been pointed out here before that to be able to fly, they'd have to have grossly deformed bodies. Perhaps the angel was using mind control to project an image into Memnon's mind, but that seems unlikely at best. Perhaps some of them are like harpies and have internal gas manufacturing, but they won't be using their wings to lift them.

Surlethe wrote:Perhaps some of them are like harpies and have internal gas manufacturing, but they won't be using their wings to lift them.

They may well use their wings to provide lift, and their TK to provide thrust. This would take a lot less energy than pure-TK wingless levitation (at least, if you make the most physically conservative assumptions about how TK works).

Sea Skimmer wrote:the navalized MLRS rocket POLAR is out of the question since it must have GPS guidance.

The guidance system is actually INS with GPS update. Without GPS, the accuracy drops to tens of meters instead of meters.

Most of the rockets in the inventory are older . . . As for ATACMS, they simply aren’t that numerous.

Given that it will be about two years before one BB returns to service, we have plenty of time to increase production.

What the two may find is even worse. The Heaven messenger parties remains.

Also Satan wont be so merciful as to kill Abigor. Strip him of his title and what not and cast him out of the court. Never to return unless summoned and all are to ignore the lies he is sayiong to cover his obvious shame.

Typhonis 1 wrote:What the two may find is even worse. The Heaven messenger parties remains.

Also Satan wont be so merciful as to kill Abigor. Strip him of his title and what not and cast him out of the court. Never to return unless summoned and all are to ignore the lies he is sayiong to cover his obvious shame.

As has been said before, Satan is many things but he isn't stupid or irresponsible. Also, a straight 'humanity wins totally' story isn't that interesting, and Stuart knows it.

hongi wrote:Aren't cherubs supposed to be winged beasts? Cause in the Psalms, God is described as sitting on one.

From what I learned while studying seventeenth century literature at uni there are supposed to be eight grades of Angels, of which Cherubim are the second highest and only the two lowest leave Heaven and run missions on Earth (and, presumably, other dimensions like Hell). Cherubim IIRC do nothing but contemplate (feed I suppose, in this cosmology) God.

The creatures we saw in Hell would have been of the Angel or Archangel rank (the two lowest). I don't know how they were identified as Cherubim in-universe but whoever made the ID was probably in error, if we assume traditional sources are correct.

Junghalli wrote:

hongi wrote:Aren't cherubs supposed to be winged beasts? Cause in the Psalms, God is described as sitting on one.

From what I learned while studying seventeenth century literature at uni there are supposed to be eight grades of Angels, of which Cherubim are the second highest and only the two lowest leave Heaven and run missions on Earth (and, presumably, other dimensions like Hell). Cherubim IIRC do nothing but contemplate (feed I suppose, in this cosmology) God.

The creatures we saw in Hell would have been of the Angel or Archangel rank (the two lowest). I don't know how they were identified as Cherubim in-universe but whoever made the ID was probably in error, if we assume traditional sources are correct.

Let's not assume that the various ancient writings are all correct. They got the whole "God loves you" thing pretty much completely wrong here, so the occasional discrepancy is no big deal, especially as it relates to the nature of Heaven.

Besides, if Stuart sets out to maintain total accuracy to all of the ancient writings, that sets him and any other contributor up for an awful lot of research work drudgery and nitpicking from readers.

Junghalli wrote:

hongi wrote:Aren't cherubs supposed to be winged beasts? Cause in the Psalms, God is described as sitting on one.

From what I learned while studying seventeenth century literature at uni there are supposed to be eight grades of Angels, of which Cherubim are the second highest and only the two lowest leave Heaven and run missions on Earth (and, presumably, other dimensions like Hell). Cherubim IIRC do nothing but contemplate (feed I suppose, in this cosmology) God. The creatures we saw in Hell would have been of the Angel or Archangel rank (the two lowest). I don't know how they were identified as Cherubim in-universe but whoever made the ID was probably in error, if we assume traditional sources are correct.

I was going by the Rennaissance paintings where the Cherubim are winged humanoids who are generally doing naughty things with assorted females. So, the "Cherubs" mentioned are what Kim and her group called the little creatures they saw, they were actually servants to the angels who made up the diplomatic party.

Angels (using the term generically) and demons are essentially the same. Remember, demons were originally the angels who rebelled against Yahweh and were cast down so they are the same stock. They've diverged a bit since then but not that much.

Abigor's meeting with Satan should be most interesting. Whilst Satan has form ( as do all the greater demons, if Abigor's musings on ways to motivate other than pure fear are anything to go by ) for obliterating those who bring bad news, what Abigor and indeed Memnon bring are the sort of tidings that would make Satan's testicles shrink etc. That would get his attention for however unpalatable the news, it just simply must be considered and acted upon if his realm is not to be seriously threatened.

And then there is Yahweh. Reports of the deaths of the heavenly mission might just filter back to Satan at about the same time. Result - more stress on certain parts of his lower, reproductive anatomy!!

Stuart, the tattoos are a very nice and humorous touch. Why do I get the feeling that there is some precedent for this type of "branding'??

Re the BBs, much as I love big gun and armour warships, the work needed to return the Iowas to service cannot IMVHO be justified in the current climate. Though a small bucket and mop group might not be a bad idea. We still have little understanding of the capabilities of heavenly troops or their types so Iowas may, repeat only may, be useful in the future. Now we need much more mundane stuff and there can be only so much manufacturing capacity available. Were any Des Moines available then they would be a better bet, but they are not.

Jonathan

JBG wrote: Were any Des Moines available then they would be a better bet, but they are not.

CA-139 Salem is very much alive and well as a museum, however I cannot see why you think such a ship would be a better bet. Main gun range is far inferior, firepower, even accounting for superior rate of fire of the 8in guns, is vastly inferior and the total weight of heavy shells carried in the magazines favors an Iowa by nearly 500%. Meanwhile the heavy cruiser is still an extremely manpower intensive ship, you could almost crew an Iowa bare bones with the same number of people, and the design has been out of service longer.

The USN actually considered reactivating Des Monies class ships twice as alternatives to Iowa reactivation. First during the Vietnam war the USMC asked for either two more of the ships or one Iowa, they got the Iowa. Then again during the 1980s reactivation of the BBs it was proposed to bring back two or three of the heavy cruisers as supplements or replacements for battleships. This idea was shot down for particularly every reason possible.

JBG wrote:Why do I get the feeling that there is some precedent for this type of "branding'??

RAF Shackleton AEW at a Red Flag exercise. The crew were peeved at the jet-jocks sarcastic remarks about their ride and took a due and dispassionate revenge (using a lady of the night's lipstick rather than tattooing but .......)

Stuart wrote:

JBG wrote:Why do I get the feeling that there is some precedent for this type of "branding'??

RAF Shackleton AEW at a Red Flag exercise. The crew were peeved at the jet-jocks sarcastic remarks about their ride and took a due and dispassionate revenge (using a lady of the night's lipstick rather than tattooing but .......)

Ah, ten thousand rivets flying in close formation.
I used to love seeing the Shak at the RAF Leuchars air display every year. Brings back a lot of nice memories thinking about that.

I think the rule of thumb should be that any incident like that is probably based on something that happened.

Still at least a couple of Shaks flying, now I come to think about it.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:When you put it that way, coming back with 99.9% losses is just insane. When was the last time a modern army took that sort of beating? Has any army EVER been that completely destroyed?

At the Battle of the Sambre during Caesar's Gallic Wars, the Nervii had 500 survivors out of 60,000 - that was fighting eight Roman Legions plus auxiliaries - that's 99.2 percent casualties. In Napoleon's retreat from Moscow, only 22,000 men survived out of 691,501 which is 96.2 percent casualties. At the Battle of Kiev in 1941, 15,000 Russian troops escaped from a total force of 850,000, a casualty rate of 98.2 percent. At Cannae, the Romans may have lost up to 81,000 men out of 86,000, a casualty rate of 94 percent.

The 99.9 percent casualty here is very high but remember these are essentially leg infantry marching head first into a defense built around barbed wire, minefields and artillery with an armored counter-attack and pursuit