Anonymous vs Scientology!

[Darth Wong]

That's the thing; I make fun of Scientology too, because it's batshit insane, fucking stupid, and bad for society. But unlike Christians, I have a right to do that without inventing a giant double standard. Any Christian who makes fun of Scientology's bullshit is a fucking hypocrite.

Hell, just look at the Christian apologist bullshit in this thread, where people pointed out that Christians very rarely act on their more harmful beliefs. Hey genius, just how many people have been killed by Scientology, again? Oh yeah, it's only a handful. I guess the "most members don't do it" excuse only works for Christianity, not Scientology.

And yet, people have no trouble glossing over the massacre of a thousand Muslims by Christian militias in Lebanon in the 1980s at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, because "most" Christians don't do such things. Or the deaths by exorcism. Or all of the gay-bashing in America, which routinely included actual murder only a few decades ago.

So only atheists get to oppose murder now?

Nice strawman, asshole. I presume you're trying to get banned now?

Look, I'm not going to gloss over the Lebanese terrorists (yes, I apply that word to them, because they fit it to a T), or gay-bashing, or any other atrocities committed by Christians, and you good and goddamned well know that; I just saw no need to talk about it in a thread that has nothing to do with those subjects.

Bullshit, you fucking liar. My only point was that Christians throw stones from a glass house when they attack Scientology for being "fucked up", because anything you can say about Scientology you can say in equal or greater measure for Christianity. By leaping in to claim that the two are not comparable, you ARE denying Christianity's sins and flaws.

You'd be right if this were about making fun of believing in their space-opera dogma, absolutely correct. But it isn't. It's more analogous to opposing organized crime. If Scientology just went around believing in Xenu and body-thetans, I'd be content to leave them alone, and so would this whole movement, but they're not.

And you act as though the Christianity in America is Christianity across the whole world, asshole. It isn't. The only reason Christianity in America isn't pulling the shit that it pulls in Africa or South America is the fact that your country was founded by a bunch of guys who put a lot of limits on religion. Attempting to exonerate Christianity itself based on the limits placed on Christianity in America is the height of sophistry.

And if, at the end of the day, you call me a hypocrite for that, well, maybe you're right.

"Maybe"? What kind of stupid asshole rushes into a comparison of Christianity and Scientology to say it's totally unfair because Christians don't do any of the bad things Scientologists do, and then when faced with irrefutable evidence that he's wrong, weasel and backpedal the way you have? Oh yeah, a first-order religious apologist twat.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Scientology needs to be dismantled. I'd expect no less if Christianity or Islam had been started in the '50s. Of course, unlike Hitchens or Dawkins, we're not merely stuck with sniping and pointing out the problems with this cult, given more action can be taken if enough people are willing to back the movement. The Abrahamic religions are too widespread, so no more than otherwise unpalatable polemics can be brought to bear, because it's wrong to point out how there's no real difference between cult and organised religion and then take corrective action.

[General Zod]

I'm sure they'll go on. Nothing legitimizes a religion better than some good old fashioned government persecution.

Whoa, hold the phone. What part of any of this says "government persecution" to you?

As soon as anyone attempts to go after their tax-exempt status, exactly which card do you think the Scientologists would play? Because guess which agency gets to take that away?

[Shroom Man 777]

I say let the government tax them all. Scientologist or not.

[Hawkwings]

Wait, so the people going after Scientology are hypocrites because they choose to target Scientology instead of Christianity? Instead of targeting them both equally, for example?

The distinction I see is that followers of Christianity aren't scammed out of their livelihoods and trapped in the organization. Feel free to provide examples if I'm wrong.

The point of going after Scientology is that the organization is destroying the lives of its followers, and it's a target that is actually possible to take down. Even if Christianity was many times worse than Scientology, it doesn't matter, because going after Christianity in this manner is like throwing feathers at a battleship.

If you consider them hypocrites for this then fine. But hypocrisy isn't the end-all be-all of factors to take into account.

[General Zod]

Wait, so the people going after Scientology are hypocrites because they choose to target Scientology instead of Christianity? Instead of targeting them both equally, for example?

They're hypocrites if they feel that Christianity doesn't deserve to be targeted because they're not "as bad" as Scientology. . . .yes.

The distinction I see is that followers of Christianity aren't scammed out of their livelihoods and trapped in the organization. Feel free to provide examples if I'm wrong.

Only because there's checks in place to prevent them from doing so in most first world nations. In nations where there are no such checks they do so routinely. Mother Theresa is the first such example that comes to mind.

[Imperial Overlord]

The distinction I see is that followers of Christianity aren't scammed out of their livelihoods and trapped in the organization. Feel free to provide examples if I'm wrong.

Televangelists.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Wait, so the people going after Scientology are hypocrites because they choose to target Scientology instead of Christianity? Instead of targeting them both equally, for example?

Wrong, they're hypocrites because they take such umbrage at certain actions Scientology takes when they have no problem with Christianity doing the same things.

The distinction I see is that followers of Christianity aren't scammed out of their livelihoods and trapped in the organization. Feel free to provide examples if I'm wrong.

Televangelists, tent-revivals, 'Rescue' camps, AA (with government support, no less).

The point of going after Scientology is that the organization is destroying the lives of its followers, and it's a target that is actually possible to take down. Even if Christianity was many times worse than Scientology, it doesn't matter, because going after Christianity in this manner is like throwing feathers at a battleship.

That would be relevant if that were the reason offered in this thread.

If you consider them hypocrites for this then fine. But hypocrisy isn't the end-all be-all of factors to take into account.

Feel free to point out where anyone said it was.

[Warsie]

#1 - (Least likely) Some hackers try to stop this to say 'lolz, I stopped the war on Scientology'
Very few sane people I know on the Internet, let along the hacker community, like Scientology. Hell, helping them might make you the next hacker target

a group called 'The Regime' did that.

#2 - Multiple hacker groups helping out Anonymous, in effect escalating the attacks on scientology, to the point were they literally have no choice but to abandon there presence on the Internet. At which point, odds are it will shift into technological based attacks off the Internet.

some are doing that.

To those that don't know; a Script-kiddie is a 'Wanna-be' Hacker that uses pre-defined tools (usually released by a Hacker group when they are done with them), to attack sites. i.e Denial of Service attacks, etc.
I can see script-kiddies joining this and attacking Scientology to prove they are 'L33T'

there are some novices out in the raids

[Cycloneman]

#1 - (Least likely) Some hackers try to stop this to say 'lolz, I stopped the war on Scientology'
Very few sane people I know on the Internet, let along the hacker community, like Scientology. Hell, helping them might make you the next hacker target

a group called 'The Regime' did that.

Turns out 'The Regime' is actually scientologists.

[Warsie]

You live a country where millions of gays are treated as second-class citizens because the Bible says so, you goddamned monkey turd. Don't tell me I have to go searching far and wide to find examples of people who are being harmed by Christianity. That fucking religion does far more damage than Scientology could ever hope to in its wildest dreams.

Sir, remember not ALL Chistian demominations are like that (Unitarians and Epispocals) but yeah a majority can be like that.

[Warsie]

As soon as I figure out how I'm posting some pictures I took of an Anonymous information stand put up. It was in the testing field of "Star Fleet Academy" lol an RPG I am in.

use imageshack

[Warsie]

Turns out 'The Regime' is actually scientologists.

okay, thank you

[Flagg]

It's a fuckload of alot easier than taking on Christianity, Judaism or Islam (in most countries). Especially where PR is concerned. Or are you gonna tell me that there'd be as big of an uproar if someone tore up a picture of L. Ron Hubbard on national TV as there was when JPII got that treatment?

Miss O'Connor is still alive and healthy, yes? She still has a career, yes? Likewise, Christopher Hitchens got positively rave reviews. Taking on Christianity in the English-speaking world seems pretty safe, actually. In the US it's losing popularity at a bit under 1% per year, which, IMO, is not a bad pace.

And it's less dangerous to a persons career to attack Christianity, Judaism, and/or Islam as opposed to Scientology how?

Now look up "The Bridge". Or Bob Minton:

"Ken, you have to help me, they've got me this time. If you don't drop the case Monday morning, the blood and death of my daughters, my wife and myself will be on your hands."

The people who are fighting Scientology are risking their livelihoods for the sake of others.

Trey Parker and Matt Stone still have their lives and careers, yes? They won an Emmy for the episode lambasting Scientlogy, yes?

Shut the fuck up, retard.

Or that if someone drew a cartoon of Hubbard on a boat with a bunch of little kids running around on deck there would be people setting fire to embassies in entire regions?

No, since that wouldn't hurt the blasphemer, not does it really disparage Scientology.

Nice evasion, fucktard. Of course it doesn't hurt the blasphemer. Last I checked, Scientology didn't advocate the murder of those that criticize it.

Face it, the only threat anyone faces from Scientology is being sued.

You are a lying little shit.

Oh, blow me you douchebag. You knew goddamned well that I was talking about people who criticize it, not members who were abused. But if you wanna start comparing body counts and atrocities then I'm game.

Which is a pain in the ass, but at the end of the day almost everyone still thinks they're a fucking joke.

Their beliefs are a joke. The crap they pull is not, at least, not in my opinion. You may find their actions funny. Of course, if you do, you really are a worthless piece of shit.

Nice. And you called me a lying little shit? Where have I said that they don't pull shit that is unethical and evil? Oh, that's right, I didn't. In fact, I compared them to the Catholic Church, the KKK, and NAMBLA. Go suck on a muffler, maybe it'll up your IQ.

I don't see governments trying to shut down other blatantly false religions like Mormonism. Do you?

Ah yes, let's go after a different cult just because it's bigger, even though it would receive less support and gain less momentum. Rather than take a 50% chance at saving a few thousand lives, let's take a 0% chance at saving a few.

Yes, let's persecute a small group of retards who are already a joke and do far less harm than globe spanning organizations that kill millions and are legally protected in many places.

It never occurs to you that this might get people to look more critically at religion, tax exempt status, and the free pass religion gets in a lot of countries.

Oh, it occurred to me. But since I live in a realm called "reality" I know that the vast majority of people who would attack Scientology do so while being completely oblivious to the fact that the same arguments used against them are relevant when talking about "real" religions.

Because you're an idiot.

Coming from a dipshit like you, that's a compliment.

[Flagg]

I'm sure they'll go on. Nothing legitimizes a religion better than some good old fashioned government persecution.

Whoa, hold the phone. What part of any of this says "government persecution" to you?

Germany is in the process of trying to outlaw Scientology. You know, because there's a country with the moral high ground when it comes to persecuting minority religions.

[Hawkwings]

Wait, so the people going after Scientology are hypocrites because they choose to target Scientology instead of Christianity? Instead of targeting them both equally, for example?

Wrong, they're hypocrites because they take such umbrage at certain actions Scientology takes when they have no problem with Christianity doing the same things.

They have no problem with Christianity doing the same? Are you sure? Where is this said?

Maybe they're just trying to avoid making another enemy? I mean, honestly, do you expect them to say "We hate Scientology because of X Y and Z and we're going to taken them down for it. Oh by the way, Christianity is also guilty of doing X Y and Z, and you're next on our list"?

The distinction I see is that followers of Christianity aren't scammed out of their livelihoods and trapped in the organization. Feel free to provide examples if I'm wrong.

Televangelists, tent-revivals, 'Rescue' camps, AA (with government support, no less).

Those don't forcibly break up families, run brainwashing daycares for children (or alternatively stick them in disgusting accommodations and neglect them) or punish you and tell you you're worthless just because you didn't sell enough books.

The point of going after Scientology is that the organization is destroying the lives of its followers, and it's a target that is actually possible to take down. Even if Christianity was many times worse than Scientology, it doesn't matter, because going after Christianity in this manner is like throwing feathers at a battleship.

That would be relevant if that were the reason offered in this thread.

What is the reason offered, as you perceive it?

If you consider them hypocrites for this then fine. But hypocrisy isn't the end-all be-all of factors to take into account.

Feel free to point out where anyone said it was.

All the arguments here are basically "Anonymous are hypocrites for attacking Scientology and not Christianity."

[Shogoki]

#1 - (Least likely) Some hackers try to stop this to say 'lolz, I stopped the war on Scientology'
Very few sane people I know on the Internet, let along the hacker community, like Scientology. Hell, helping them might make you the next hacker target

a group called 'The Regime' did that.

Turns out 'The Regime' is actually scientologists.

They got counter-hacked bad too, while they replaced the front page of 711chan.org, some Anons in g00ns got so pissed they actually managed to claim their whole domain (regimeorder.com), and replaced their front page with The Fagime, along with the real life data of it's members, and it stayed like that for like a week.

The Regime pretty much gave up on getting their domain back, and had to create another domain (http://www.regimesyndicate.org/). It was all epic lulz as well.

[Thanas]

How much do you really know about scientology and germany, Flagg?

They are prosecuted for the same reasons neo-nazis, radical communists or fundamentalists are - they threaten the democracy and are quite dangerous for their members.

Why should they be treated any better than say a christian group trying to supplant the constitution with a regime created by "god"? Or a radical communist party?

Also, you can take your germany=nazi spiel and shove it where the sun doesn't shine, because everybody with any kind of knowledge knows that modern germany is quite unlike the third reich.

[Ariphaos]

And it's less dangerous to a persons career to attack Christianity, Judaism, and/or Islam as opposed to Scientology how?

I don't have to compensate for your idiocy. I've given you half a dozen links about the sort of harm Scientology does, and there are massive resources on-line that catalog Scientology's crimes. Hell, there's an interesting enough story just behind xenu.net itself.

Trey Parker and Matt Stone still have their lives and careers, yes? They won an Emmy for the episode lambasting Scientlogy, yes?

No, they did not.

They did lose Isaac Hayes, and the episode's rebroadcast was pulled. They did not lose any actors over the bloody mary episode, to my knowledge.

Shut the fuck up, retard.

Who has the Mormon church (since they were your example) killed in the past half-century? Who has gone missing under their care? Whose lives have they completely destroyed?

There are some in each category, I'm sure.

Do you seriously think, that we should not try to stop this shit?

Nice evasion, fucktard. Of course it doesn't hurt the blasphemer. Last I checked, Scientology didn't advocate the murder of those that criticize it.

You didn't even bother reading about Paulette Cooper and Operation Freakout, did you?

No. Because you're a fuckwit.

Oh, blow me you douchebag. You knew goddamned well that I was talking about people who criticize it, not members who were abused. But if you wanna start comparing body counts and atrocities then I'm game.

Nor did you read about Milton or Keith Henson. Because you're a pathetic sack of shit.

Nice. And you called me a lying little shit? Where have I said that they don't pull shit that is unethical and evil? Oh, that's right, I didn't. In fact, I compared them to the Catholic Church, the KKK, and NAMBLA. Go suck on a muffler, maybe it'll up your IQ.

NAMBLA has what for political power?

The KKK is probably the most appropriate comparison, until after the Civil Rights movement.

I already mentioned the parallels between the rise of Scientology and what became early Catholicism, which doesn't quite have the same sway or tactics it used to. That doesn't excuse either of them, but if it's possible to defeat one evil, then why not?

Yes, let's persecute a small group of retards who are already a joke and do far less harm than globe spanning organizations that kill millions and are legally protected in many places.

I'm glad you agree. Far better to take them out now than to wait until they become a globe-spanning operation with legal protection in many countries (oh wait, they already are). Better to deal with them while they are only killing or ruining thousands, yes?

And I know Mormonism has done its share of dirty work, but millions? Sources, please?

Oh, it occurred to me. But since I live in a realm called "reality" I know that the vast majority of people who would attack Scientology do so while being completely oblivious to the fact that the same arguments used against them are relevant when talking about "real" religions.

Are you referring to Anonymous, or in general?

[Flagg]

How much do you really know about scientology and germany, Flagg?

They are prosecuted for the same reasons neo-nazis, radical communists or fundamentalists are - they threaten the democracy and are quite dangerous for their members.

Scientology is trying to overthrow the German government? Really? Any evidence for this? Any evidence that Scientology poses a greater threat to Germans and Germany than the Catholic Church or Islam? Or is it just that Scientologists are an incredibly easy target due to their unpopularity?

Why should they be treated any better than say a christian group trying to supplant the constitution with a regime created by "god"? Or a radical communist party?

Are they actively trying to overthrow the German government? Really? Because they don't seem to be trying to overthrow the US government, and we actually allow organizations with that as their stated intent to exist.

Also, you can take your germany=nazi spiel and shove it where the sun doesn't shine, because everybody with any kind of knowledge knows that modern germany is quite unlike the third reich.

Oh, sorry about that. I forgot that pointing out that a country which carried out the extermination of 12 million people for being in widely despised religious and racial minority groups might not exactly have the moral high ground when it comes to deciding which religious organizations are "legitimate" and which are not is equating the modern government with Nazis.

[Flagg]

And it's less dangerous to a persons career to attack Christianity, Judaism, and/or Islam as opposed to Scientology how?

I don't have to compensate for your idiocy. I've given you half a dozen links about the sort of harm Scientology does, and there are massive resources on-line that catalog Scientology's crimes. Hell, there's an interesting enough story just behind xenu.net itself.

Trey Parker and Matt Stone still have their lives and careers, yes? They won an Emmy for the episode lambasting Scientlogy, yes?

No, they did not.

They did lose Isaac Hayes, and the episode's rebroadcast was pulled. They did not lose any actors over the bloody mary episode, to my knowledge.

Shut the fuck up, retard.

Who has the Mormon church (since they were your example) killed in the past half-century? Who has gone missing under their care? Whose lives have they completely destroyed?

There are some in each category, I'm sure.

Do you seriously think, that we should not try to stop this shit?

Nice evasion, fucktard. Of course it doesn't hurt the blasphemer. Last I checked, Scientology didn't advocate the murder of those that criticize it.

You didn't even bother reading about Paulette Cooper and Operation Freakout, did you?

No. Because you're a fuckwit.

Oh, blow me you douchebag. You knew goddamned well that I was talking about people who criticize it, not members who were abused. But if you wanna start comparing body counts and atrocities then I'm game.

Nor did you read about Milton or Keith Henson. Because you're a pathetic sack of shit.

Nice. And you called me a lying little shit? Where have I said that they don't pull shit that is unethical and evil? Oh, that's right, I didn't. In fact, I compared them to the Catholic Church, the KKK, and NAMBLA. Go suck on a muffler, maybe it'll up your IQ.

NAMBLA has what for political power?

The KKK is probably the most appropriate comparison, until after the Civil Rights movement.

I already mentioned the parallels between the rise of Scientology and what became early Catholicism, which doesn't quite have the same sway or tactics it used to. That doesn't excuse either of them, but if it's possible to defeat one evil, then why not?

Yes, let's persecute a small group of retards who are already a joke and do far less harm than globe spanning organizations that kill millions and are legally protected in many places.

I'm glad you agree. Far better to take them out now than to wait until they become a globe-spanning operation with legal protection in many countries (oh wait, they already are). Better to deal with them while they are only killing or ruining thousands, yes?

And I know Mormonism has done its share of dirty work, but millions? Sources, please?

Oh, it occurred to me. But since I live in a realm called "reality" I know that the vast majority of people who would attack Scientology do so while being completely oblivious to the fact that the same arguments used against them are relevant when talking about "real" religions.

Are you referring to Anonymous, or in general?

I was specifically talking about people going after Scientology while ignoring far worse offenders. I'm sure Scientology has it's share of fucked up retards who will go after people just like every other religion. I'm taking umbrage with the fact that a perfectly valid religion (to the extent that any religion is valid) is under attack and threat of being made illegal while other, more dangerous religions are left alone.

Oh, and 'Trapped in the Closet' was simply nominated for an Emmy, but didn't win. My bad, on that. And the episode 'Bloody Mary' was shelved for 8 months before being rerun on Comedy Central due to the Catholics getting pissy over it.

[Rye]

It's likely a lot more politically easy to take a stance against scientology as a dangerous cult in Germany than Roman Catholicism. It's probably much more difficult as a German catholic to get the church acting like Scientology does towards you. The main danger from catholicism is regarding its condom doctrine, meanwhile scientology leaves a big set of economic hardships and cultish behaviour in a modern setting. Frankly, I would rather someone attempt to deal with the smaller culty religions (various forms of evangelical, like the ones in Jesus camp would be included in this) first. The scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses, hardcore evangelicals etc, all, I would say, more severe problems in any modern society than the CofE or the RCC.

I think the small size makes them more managable and more prone to extreme, inclusive and secretive ideologies. Culty, managable variants of catholicism and islam and the rest of it make sense as targets, because then you can defuse them before they become popular enough to appeal to mass audiences and fuck everything up for everyone, as has happened throughout history.

[Skelron]

[]



Are they actively trying to overthrow the German government? Really? Because they don't seem to be trying to overthrow the US government, and we actually allow organizations with that as their stated intent to exist.
:

Overthrow the American Government maybe not, actively attempting to infiltrate it's Law enforcement agencies. Yes as was mentioned in this thread, Scientology is responsible for the largest infiltration of the American Law Enforcement, in an attempt to destroy evidence and pervert the course of Justice.

On the Lebonese terrorists the comparison is unfair, simply put the Lebonese Terrorists as far as I am aware where not acting under orders from a Church Leadership, they acted on their own. Thats the differance here, is the Christian faith innocent even today of course not, but if your going to blame the churchs for things at least blame them for things they actually ordered rather than for the actions of extremists who can come from any demonination or belief, or lack thereof.

For example fair comparison might well be the issue brought up of Condoms and Aids, thats something the Catholic Church is directly responsible for and is something that the Cardinals and the current Pope insitgated. Since what is being protested about Scientology is the actions ordered by it's leadership, accusations of hypocrisy should surely come about for not protesting actions ordered by the leadership, rather than anything commited by anyone who calls himself or herself Christian.

[Ariphaos]

I was specifically talking about people going after Scientology while ignoring far worse offenders. I'm sure Scientology has it's share of fucked up retards who will go after people just like every other religion. I'm taking umbrage with the fact that a perfectly valid religion (to the extent that any religion is valid) is under attack and threat of being made illegal while other, more dangerous religions are left alone.

For its size and current actions, I can't think of an organization worse than Scientology whose major operations are in the English-speaking world. There are a lot of problems, yes, but they're either minuscule (Westburo, NAMBLA), preaching to choirs (KKK), massive and dilute (pretty much any mainstream religion), or largely outside of the purview of 'Anonymous' (though it will be interesting to see if a policy-making group can be formed out of this).

There are, roughly, a hundred thousand Scientologists (they will claim eight million). We probably aren't seeing a fraction of what's really going on, yet we know of dozens dead, dozens missing, and dozens sexually abused. They are a large enough target to merit worldwide attention, but small enough that something can actually be done - if enough momentum gets behind the movement. If this leads to the application of generic laws, so much the better.

I think the world needs some definitions of "Real Religion", and this could be a good catalyst for that.

1: Real religions don't copyright their documents and don't consider them trade secrets.
2: Real religions do not practice disconnects, or otherwise attempt to control relationships.
3: Real religions do not have 'fair game' policies.
4: Real religions do not mandate pricing for their services or membership.
5: Real religions do not sequester their children from the common public's ability to observe their welfare.

I'm sure others could be thought up, it's just a start.

Oh, and 'Trapped in the Closet' was simply nominated for an Emmy, but didn't win. My bad, on that. And the episode 'Bloody Mary' was shelved for 8 months before being rerun on Comedy Central due to the Catholics getting pissy over it.

Which I never would have bothered watching if they didn't.

[Ariphaos]

Jehovah's Witnesses

I forgot about them. -_-