Page 9 of 52
Posted: 2008-08-16 02:44pm
by Sea Skimmer
Coyote wrote:
There's also a good European missile being produced, I think it's the "Meteor".
Meteor is still in development, and slated for 2013 entry into service. It’s pretty much the bleeding edge of missile technology because of its throttleable solid fuel air augmented rocket motor. I think though that the only way this game will work though is with development times for weapon and other advanced projects are compressed… otherwise anything cool will take at least 10 years, so maybe Meteor could be in operational testing like 5th generation fighters are.
Posted: 2008-08-16 03:17pm
by Vohu Manah
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Yes, a good chunk of Old Continent includes Egypt, Arabia, Syria. I don't think I want to extend all the way to Mesopotamia, so I will leave it as that.
Would you have a problem with, for the purpose of my nation's history, claiming my island was purchased from your nation and granted sovereignty at a later date for a minor contribution to the Great Continental War?
Posted: 2008-08-16 03:45pm
by Coyote
Vohu Manah wrote:Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Yes, a good chunk of Old Continent includes Egypt, Arabia, Syria. I don't think I want to extend all the way to Mesopotamia, so I will leave it as that.
Would you have a problem with, for the purpose of my nation's history, claiming my island was purchased from your nation and granted sovereignty at a later date for a minor contribution to the Great Continental War?
It's sounding a lot more like we're going to be using a version of real-world continents, albeit with some pieces shaved off or relocated here & there...
I don't have a problem with that, really. Makes things easy, really, since Canissia is now big enough to be both Spain & France together...
Posted: 2008-08-16 03:56pm
by Vohu Manah
Coyote wrote:It's sounding a lot more like we're going to be using a version of real-world continents, albeit with some pieces shaved off or relocated here & there...
I don't have a problem with that, really. Makes things easy, really, since Canissia is now big enough to be both Spain & France together...
It was more along the lines of me being lazy (more time making a map from scratch versus grabbing an appropriate image and editing it, not to mention guess borders lengths and hurt my head with the math since my country description is using a CIA World Factbook-ish format) and not wanting to develop and explain how the hell my tiny ass country remained free and relevant for hundreds of years (not to mention the concept I have in mind is fairly modern and a late start allows for the near immediate deployment of modern infrastructure instead of a steady rebuild of existing public works). I've also spent a good chunk of time developing two possible concepts and the island concept is far less work for the map-maker to use than the landlocked concept.
Posted: 2008-08-16 04:05pm
by PeZook
phongn wrote:Er, for you guys thinking of an alliance, it's less important that you have identical equipment, only interoperable equipment. Inevitably you're going to have different requirements and different budgets leading to different weapon systems. Standardizing on things like common ammunition, datalinks, etc. would be rather more useful.
Tanks and APCs, maybe fighters are the only thing that are important they be the same, really, since they take a crapload of spare parts and technical know-how to keep running. It won't do to have every field technician have to learn four different manuals for four different tank types
Otherwise, yeah, I guess we can standardize magazines, ammo calibers, datalinks and radios etc. and be good.
Also, English
BTW: Shroom, you can laugh about the bit with the bicycles and PeZookian pilots, but I didn't actually make it up
Posted: 2008-08-16 04:42pm
by Shroom Man 777
Seriously? Shit...
Maybe we can have the FUN have compatible datalinks and radios and magazines, but the tanks and the aircraft could still be varied. Like the real EU. I mean, unlike the MESS, the FUN has always been less militaristic and has also been loopy. We'd have growing-up hurdles.
And bicycles. Shroomanian Top Gun training will involve bicycles along with the beach volleyball. Just because.
(They actually saw how goddamn good the PeZookians were in WotW2, and have ever since made bicycle-training the standard for all Shroomanian ace pilots!)
Posted: 2008-08-16 08:09pm
by RogueIce
Shroom Man 777 wrote:I mean, unlike the MESS, the FUN has always been less militaristic and has also been loopy. We'd have growing-up hurdles.
And despite the whole "more militaristic angle" we're
still not going so far as to have identical ships, tanks, planes, APCs, etc. Mostly just stuff like Phong mentioned: ammunition, data links, refueling probes, etc.
Although that said, there probably will be some commonality within us. I suppose that's one of the side effects of most of our membership (for the game, at least) coming from the US. Still, I know a few are going with different kit for variety, and at any rate it's not
mandated that we conform to the level PeZook was talking about.
In fact, it'd almost be a little suspicious and cause for concern as to why the FUN went that far.
Oh well. At least the MESS wouldn't be the only ones getting the militaristic warmonger tag by people bitching.
Posted: 2008-08-16 08:47pm
by Coyote
RogueIce wrote:
And despite the whole "more militaristic angle" we're still not going so far as to have identical ships, tanks, planes, APCs, etc. Mostly just stuff like Phong mentioned: ammunition, data links, refueling probes, etc.
Although that said, there probably will be some commonality within us.
Which reminds me, are we going to start out with the ROB again?
As far as weapons go, I'm using the 6.8mm Universal Service Round for my infantry smallarms, centered around a SCAR-type rifle that is the basis for carbines, assault rifles, sniper rifles, and light belt-fed squad MGs...with .45 being the universal round for pistols and sub-machineguns, and 12-gauge for shotguns.
Posted: 2008-08-16 08:49pm
by Sea Skimmer
Most of the Japanistani naval OOB is now up. It is not exactly tiny but only 13 surface warships are remotely modern (Anchar, Udaloy, Mod Kara, Jaingkai-II) and of those only the three Anchars are really anything competative compared to AEGIS ships. Even then they, still rely on rotating radars rather then fixed ones like SPY-1. Both aircraft carriers are too small for modern planes and basically exist as prestige objects, no fixed wing aircraft other then trainers have been embarked in decades. No large amphibious ships, and only 8 submarines are modern. In fact I think I’ll have to further scale down Japanistani naval spending to account for such a small fleet.
The Mod Kara is a real Russian proposal based on the Azov, which was a Kara modified to have the aft SAM system replaced by 6 x S-300 launchers as a trials ship for that system. The complete modification which didn't happen in real life made changes to the rest of the armament (mainly the 76mm twins became 100mm singles), and adds four more S-300 launchers on the bow. I’ve got a top down image of what this ship would look like if anyone wants it.
Anchar was a paper project canceled in 1992 for a multirole destroyer to escort carriers. It is semi nuclear powered because the Russians being very crazy, decided that it would have a nuclear plant AND gas turbines, the gas turbines being used for cruising when hunting subs because they made less noise! The specs of the ship changed from time to time during development but the following specifications are pretty close to what it would have been.
Project 11991 Anchar multirole destroyer (based on the hard work of M. A. Rozon and others figuring out how the ship would, or at least could have been equipped in actuality)
Length:
Overall: 215 metres
Waterline: 203.3 metres
Beam:
Maximum: 20.7 metres
Waterline: 20.0 metres
Displacement:
Standard: 12000 tons
Full load: 14000 tons
Draught at the keel:
Standard Displacement: 6.25 metres
Full Load Displacement: 7.3 metres.
Twin Shaft
CONAG (COmbind Nuclear And Gas) The nuclear plant has sufficient power from two turbines for 30 knts, two gas turbines supply power for cruising for optimal sonar performance with rafted machinery and also for maximum 32 knot speed.
2 x PWR nuclear reactors driving two steam turbines. Total power 100,000hp for a speed of about 30knts. 2 auxiliary steam boilers for shore power and emergency propulsion power.
2 x steam turbine driven power generators in the 3 megawatt range.
2 x 12,000hp gas turbines providing power for about 18 knots
1500 tons of fuel, endurance around 6000-7000 miles at 18 knots on gas turbine power only.
3 x gas turbine driven peak load and emergency power turbo generators in the 3 megawatt range
Prairie Masker driven by bleed air from gas turbines.
Weapons
1 x AK-152 on bow with 500 rounds. Controlled by Puma Phased array GFCS just forward of the bridge.
4 x M-22 Uragan (SA-N-7 Gadfly) 3S90 single arm launcher launchers mounted in two batteries, two side by side on the beam forward, two side by side between the aft funnel and the aft VLS. 24 missiles per launcher, 96 total. Each battery is served by six MR90 Orekh (Front Dome) Fire Control radars, cluster around the forward and aft masts respectively
2 x RPK-9 Medvedka (SS-N-29) quadruple ASW missile launchers, one on each beam abreast the bridge
1 x VLS for 24 Onyx (SS-N-26) or Kaliber (SS-N-27) missiles, aft centerline between helicopter hanger and Uragan launchers.
4 x Kortik combat modules (CADS-N-1). Two of the combat modules are mounted on structures along the port and starboard sides of the bridge, another two mounted on similar structures to port and starboard amidships between the aft main mack and aft funnel. Two 30-mm gatling guns with 1000 rounds and eight SA-N-11 missiles on each mount with 32 auto reloading missiles. 1 x MR-352 Positiv-E (Cross Dome) radar mounted centerline between the aft main mack and aft funnel. Provides target designation for Kortik in combination with other shipboard radars.
2 x trainable quintuple 533mm torpedo tube mounts, 1 carried internally under the helicopter hanger on each beam, 10 reload USET-80 torpedoes and SS-N-15 ASW missiles.
2 x UDAV-1 ASW rocket launchers, both on the bow. 30 guided and unguided rockets each.
1 x helicopter pad with hanger capacity for 2 x Ka-27 Helix helicopters at stern
Major Radars
2 x Forum 2-M (MR-1000 Fregat-M2EM?) on the mack mainmast, the tallest mast of the ship. Back-to-back antenna, long range 3-D air search set. 1 on foremast, 1 on main mack
3 x MR-212 Nyada (Palm Frond) surface search-navigation-sea skimmer missile detector radars, one atop the bridge, two on either side of the forward Forum 2-M radar.
1 x Band Stand radar for Mineral OTH radar system for SSM control
Sonar
1 x Zvezda-M2 system, large active/passive bow sonar,
1 x Active variable depth sonar
1 x MGK-335TA anti-torpedo sonar for UDAV-1 using keel mounted dome
Electronic Warfare
1 x MP-401S Start ESM system, Bell Shroud and Bell Squat receiver antennas (one of each on the port and starboard sides), 6 x Half Cup laser detectors with the Spektr-F system. Mediant Electronic Warfare Control system. 2 x PK-2, 8 x PK-10 chaff and Decoy dispensers, MP-407 Start 2 Jamming system, four Wine Glass jammers, 2 each on the port and starboard sides of the tower mainmast.
1 x towed acoustic decoy streamed from the quarterdeck
Communcations Links
2 x Punch Bowl antennas for RORSAT and EORSAT data
2 x Tsunami-VM satcom
2 x “Light Bulb” directional datalinks, one on each beam with two antennas
Armor protection
50-80mm armor on reactors and propulsion spaces, 80mm armor on main command post/CIC, splinter protection elsewhere
The Mod Anchar is identical to the above ship except that the four Uragan launchers are replaced by VLS silo clusters holding 36 missiles each for the improved SA-N-12 Grizzly SAM. These VLS silos cannot hold alternative weapons. I have an image which basically shows what this ship would look like, except the artist made an error and shows SA-N-9 launchers in place of the Onyx launchers. So do folks approve?
Posted: 2008-08-16 09:31pm
by Raj Ahten
Sea Skimmer, I'm kind of surprised uyou don't have a more modern Navy, give that your territory is going to be split up all over the place. (I was hoping to see a huge nuclear sub force, or something equally alarming and cool). So far your Army and Navy have been getting rather second hand equipment. Is the air force the Jewel of Japanistan's military that gets all the funding?
Edit: Or do Japanistan's extensive occupation zones suck up all the funding?
Posted: 2008-08-16 09:37pm
by Setzer
I think it's because he has to cover such a large area. New equipment takes time to field, and that means older material can stay in service long after its replacements have become operational.
Posted: 2008-08-16 11:12pm
by Fingolfin_Noldor
Vohu Manah wrote:Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Yes, a good chunk of Old Continent includes Egypt, Arabia, Syria. I don't think I want to extend all the way to Mesopotamia, so I will leave it as that.
Would you have a problem with, for the purpose of my nation's history, claiming my island was purchased from your nation and granted sovereignty at a later date for a minor contribution to the Great Continental War?
That sounds cool with me. Just adds one more interesting dynamic to the politics.
Sea Skimmer wrote:Meteor is still in development, and slated for 2013 entry into service. It’s pretty much the bleeding edge of missile technology because of its throttleable solid fuel air augmented rocket motor. I think though that the only way this game will work though is with development times for weapon and other advanced projects are compressed… otherwise anything cool will take at least 10 years, so maybe Meteor could be in operational testing like 5th generation fighters are.
I have to agree on this. For the most part, the cool stuff takes 10 years to roll out. I will be surprised if the game can last 10 mths without a nuclear war in between.
Posted: 2008-08-17 03:31am
by MKSheppard
Shepistani General War College wrote:The forces deemed necessary to accomplish the role of ground units in the supreme effort to defeat our potential enemies, the FUN and MESS -- total 5 Field Armies consisting of approximately 215 divisions (mechanized, armored, air-borne, and mountain) with appropriate supporting and service elements.
Posted: 2008-08-17 03:43am
by Shroom Man 777
But I thought we were Best Friends Forever
Posted: 2008-08-17 03:56am
by MKSheppard
Shroom Man 777 wrote:But I thought we were Best Friends Forever
Your crazed russian member launched cobalt tipped misisles last time at me mang!
Posted: 2008-08-17 04:00am
by Sea Skimmer
Raj Ahten wrote:Sea Skimmer, I'm kind of surprised uyou don't have a more modern Navy, give that your territory is going to be split up all over the place. (I was hoping to see a huge nuclear sub force, or something equally alarming and cool). So far your Army and Navy have been getting rather second hand equipment. Is the air force the Jewel of Japanistan's military that gets all the funding?
The Army is not all second hand equipment, and you haven’t seen how big the reserve and militia forces are, they guzzle funding but ensure human wave attacks can go on all day long. The Air Force and air defenses will be much more on par with world standards. I have considered adding a few more Anchars, some more frigates, and nuclear submarines but I think I’ll await completion of my air force and naval air force OOB, and some other folks naval OOBs, before making any adjustments in strength.
Edit: Or do Japanistan's extensive occupation zones suck up all the funding?
That’s part of the issue, also Japanistan simply has very extensive military and internal security infrastructure and forces which need a lot of upkeep. Large strategic fuel and raw material stockpiles are maintained and just about everything from army arsenals to court houses and radio stations are hardened against air attack. Japanistan aims for self sufficiency (to make it the ultimate garrison state) in all categories of material and products, and the costs of doing this inflate the price of military hardware.
Posted: 2008-08-17 04:03am
by Fingolfin_Noldor
What is the rule for reserves? I'm tempted to have some degree of conscription, but the point system won't allow for too much of that.
By the way, Coyote, does your Aviation Heliborne Assault include only the equipment or both troops + helis?
How many aircraft does your Aviation brigade (CAS) constitute?
Posted: 2008-08-17 05:05am
by Shroom Man 777
MKSheppard wrote:Shroom Man 777 wrote:But I thought we were Best Friends Forever
Your crazed russian member launched cobalt tipped misisles last time at me mang!
That's cause you made a MESS massacre, mang!
Posted: 2008-08-17 05:15am
by Fingolfin_Noldor
Shroom Man 777 wrote:MKSheppard wrote:Shroom Man 777 wrote:But I thought we were Best Friends Forever
Your crazed russian member launched cobalt tipped misisles last time at me mang!
That's cause you made a MESS massacre, mang!
Yeah, over a false intelligence.
Posted: 2008-08-17 05:18am
by Siege
Are observing members of the FUN obliged to keep to the rules concerning material?
Posted: 2008-08-17 05:23am
by Fingolfin_Noldor
SiegeTank wrote:Are observing members of the FUN obliged to keep to the rules concerning material?
What sort of material? As far as I am concerned, I'm cool to being an observing member, heavily involved in various foreign policy discussions. Economic policy I wouldn't mind being engaged in, but beyond that, what stays in FUN, stays in FUN.
Posted: 2008-08-17 05:29am
by PeZook
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Seriously? Shit...
Maybe we can have the FUN have compatible datalinks and radios and magazines, but the tanks and the aircraft could still be varied. Like the real EU. I mean, unlike the MESS, the FUN has always been less militaristic and has also been loopy. We'd have growing-up hurdles.
Heh, I read Coyote's post in the Ossetia thread and thought it was a really good idea
Well, I suppose we can limit the standardization to ammunition, gun calibers, datalinks, radios and English and leave it at that.
Shroom Man 777 wrote:And bicycles. Shroomanian Top Gun training will involve bicycles along with the beach volleyball. Just because.
(They actually saw how goddamn good the PeZookians were in WotW2, and have ever since made bicycle-training the standard for all Shroomanian ace pilots!)
Dude, the foreign pilots IRL hated the stupid bicycle thing. They were good because their home countries had small air forces and thus invested a lot of time and effort into pilot training.
And, of course, only the most resourceful,smart and attentive pilots managed to get to Shroomania
Besides, it's the XXI century. You should have electronic simulators by now
Posted: 2008-08-17 05:50am
by Siege
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:What sort of material?
War material. But PeZook already addressed the matter:
PeZook wrote:I suppose we can limit the standardization to ammunition, gun calibers, datalinks, radios and English and leave it at that.
I can do that without trouble (as long as FUN standards and FTO standards are compatible, which could perfectly well be the case).
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:As far as I am concerned, I'm cool to being an observing member, heavily involved in various foreign policy discussions. Economic policy I wouldn't mind being engaged in, but beyond that, what stays in FUN, stays in FUN.
Yes, I was thinking along similar lines. Modest cooperation, without getting too heavily involved.
Posted: 2008-08-17 06:55am
by Shroom Man 777
PeZook wrote:Dude, the foreign pilots IRL hated the stupid bicycle thing. They were good because their home countries had small air forces and thus invested a lot of time and effort into pilot training.
And, of course, only the most resourceful,smart and attentive pilots managed to get to Shroomania
Besides, it's the XXI century. You should have electronic simulators by now
Physical fitness is a key regimen in Top Gun Ace training! Hence the bicycles... and the volleyball!
Oh, and I find it now appropriate that Shroomania is modeled after Britain (plus Germany). Since apparently, British humor relies heavily upon men in drag, so yeah...
Posted: 2008-08-17 06:58am
by RogueIce
I was looking over some OOBs and noticed a problem with Coyote's ARG/ESG/MEU setup. You need more than just an LHD to field a full MEU, at least to the size of the USMC standard (which is the example Beowulf provided: which is to say he did a MEB, but divide that by three to get a MEU).
Current USN ESGs use one LHD, one LSD, and one LPD. I know there are alternate ways to do it (the USN didn't always use just these three ships, after all) but I'm not enough of a Navy expert to say how they were formed. I'm sure someone else is, though.
I don't know if anyone else did it like that, but something to keep in mind if you want a USMC-style MEU.