StarDestroyer.Net BBS

SiegeTank wrote:It does involve us; one of the main purposes of the FTO (insofar as I'm concerned at least) is to keep the continent peaceful. That's why we're building a taskforce to intervene in the CFR after all; for much the same reason, we should be getting involved when one nation on our continent launches an unprovoked attack on another, member nation or not.

I agree, it does involve us, up until they both run to their respective larger groups. When they did that, they basically went against our other edict, don't let in foreign powers. If we are able to pacify the region, we should request the nonintervention of both larger powers. If we are not able to, then we have no way of helping ourselves.

Also, our resources are barely able to handle the CFR situation, we cannot handle a situation with multiple continental powers involved.

edit: I'm willing to swap CFR stabilization for Tian Jiao Stabilization Effort, I am not willing to get involved with other-continental powers.

To the guys of the FTO, it will be good to note that Tian Jiao may have governed itself nominally as an independent state, but it is still, more or less, a Tian Xia province.

So technically, you guys can go quibble about the details, but telling Tian Xia to bugger off, is neither within your rights, nor within even you own power.

PeZook wrote:What about MAD detectors?

1.) Stay deep. MAD Detection capability drops the deeper something is.

2.) Build it out of titanitium. Significantly reduces MAD detection capability

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Also, that sub of his is going to be slow. Ohios do 25 knots if I am not wrong. He is going to be even slower, like 20!

I haven't done the math yet, but I figure 22-24 knots is it's top speed, of course, my silent speed is going to be pretty high, around 20 knots.

Realistically, it can sustain 22 knots indefinitely; unlike a diesel sub or AIP sub; which makes it more lethal than a floating minefield.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:But that aside, how the hell is Shep going to develop something like that in less than a year?

I didn't develop them overnight. If you look at my public OOB; I have a series of progressively larger boats; starting with a prototype sub that's only about 20,000~ tons; and they progressively grow larger with each class.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Even if he went double hull like the Typhoon, the Typhoon itself was probably the best you could do with the materials available.

Actually, my boat is five hulled if you want to get specifically anal.

Karmic Knight wrote:I agree, it does involve us, up until they both run to their respective larger groups. When they did that, they basically went against our other edict, don't let in foreign powers. If we are able to pacify the region, we should request the nonintervention of both larger powers. If we are not able to, then we have no way of helping ourselves.

The CSR imposed itself on this whole clusterfuck of a situation. Is the FTO supposed to back off just because a random Great Power decided to stick its nose in our affairs? If we go down that route it essentially means FTO operations exist by the grace and goodwill of the Great Powers. I say bollocks to that -- if we pool our resources we've got a bloody big fleet, plus an airforce more than sufficient to force the CSR to back off.

Personally I'm already fed up with Great Powers "refuelling" in ports that just so happen to be located in a warzone, or "taking atmospheric samples" at the edge of our airspace. They're testing us, seeing how much they can push us around, and right now you're folding like a cheap house o' cards. Next thing you know, there'll be a CRS naval base next door, and the day after that, someone is going to land 'military advisors' in Eutopia, and then you're right and properly fucked. If that's your kind of thing then fine, but I'm not going to stand for it if I can help it.

They're not going to play nice, so we shouldn't play nice either.

Also, our resources are barely able to handle the CFR situation, we cannot handle a situation with multiple continental powers involved.

Then we shift our taskforce to Tian Jiao; they obviously should take precedence right now.

edit: I'm willing to swap CFR stabilization for Tian Jiao Stabilization Effort, I am not willing to get involved with other-continental powers.

So you're folding. Fine; I'm not, though, and I would hope neither would the other members of the FTO.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:So technically, you guys can go quibble about the details, but telling Tian Xia to bugger off, is neither within your rights, nor within even you own power.

I don't mind Tian Xia's involvement myself; as you say, they've technically got a good reason to be involved. Hell, my fleet detail is perfectly willing to conduct joint ops with the TXN for the duration of this crisis. I'm mainly concerned with the CRS at this stage, and to a lesser extent the precedent we set should we choose to twiddle our thumbs and do fuck-all when Great Powers muck about in our back yards.

MKSheppard wrote:

PeZook wrote:What about MAD detectors?

1.) Stay deep. MAD Detection capability drops the deeper something is.

2.) Build it out of titanitium. Significantly reduces MAD detection capability

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Also, that sub of his is going to be slow. Ohios do 25 knots if I am not wrong. He is going to be even slower, like 20!

I haven't done the math yet, but I figure 22-24 knots is it's top speed, of course, my silent speed is going to be pretty high, around 20 knots.

Realistically, it can sustain 22 knots indefinitely; unlike a diesel sub or AIP sub; which makes it more lethal than a floating minefield.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:But that aside, how the hell is Shep going to develop something like that in less than a year?

I didn't develop them overnight. If you look at my public OOB; I have a series of progressively larger boats; starting with a prototype sub that's only about 20,000~ tons; and they progressively grow larger with each class.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Even if he went double hull like the Typhoon, the Typhoon itself was probably the best you could do with the materials available.

Actually, my boat is five hulled if you want to get specifically anal.

Good Lord, a five hulled boat, made of Titanium. You do realise that one boat alone, even mass produced, will cost easily as much as one Nimitz Carrier, if not more?

And...the first members of Kulinsky's family make a reappearance

Your post, PeZook, makes me consider Astarias' situation even more precarious. Astarias could potentially get away with things like buying Kanawha tribals captured by Shepistan or being the destination of other human trafficking rings from uncivilized areas, but more powerful foreign nations' citizens? All it takes is Astarian abolitionists getting identifiable photographs to link up to missing persons lists and to send the info out and you have an instant crisis and potential casus belli from a world full of nations that would probably love the slightest pretense to attack Astarias for idealistic or cynical reasons (even the uber-capitalists like the IRT and San Dorado probably see value in picking on a state like Astarias since it makes them look good).

Did you plot this with Norse or is it something you did on your own accord?

Steve wrote: Did you plot this with Norse or is it something you did on your own accord?

No, I didn't actually plot this out with Norseman: I figured Astarians would get their slaves from a variety of sources: not all of them would work in Astaria's best interest, or bow to the government's desires. I basically want to see how Norseman will handle this inevitable aspect of his country's profile: will he aid other countries in getting their citizens back (thus opposing some of his own people)? How will Astaria react if, say, a coast guard cutter inspects an Astarian-flagged ship and finds slaves in the cargo hold, and arrests the crew?

SiegeTank wrote:

Karmic Knight wrote:I agree, it does involve us, up until they both run to their respective larger groups. When they did that, they basically went against our other edict, don't let in foreign powers. If we are able to pacify the region, we should request the nonintervention of both larger powers. If we are not able to, then we have no way of helping ourselves.

The CSR imposed itself on this whole clusterfuck of a situation. Is the FTO supposed to back off just because a random Great Power decided to stick its nose in our affairs? If we go down that route it essentially means FTO operations exist by the grace and goodwill of the Great Powers. I say bollocks to that -- if we pool our resources we've got a bloody big fleet, plus an airforce more than sufficient to force the CSR to back off.

Personally I'm already fed up with Great Powers "refuelling" in ports that just so happen to be located in a warzone, or "taking atmospheric samples" at the edge of our airspace. They're testing us, seeing how much they can push us around, and right now you're folding like a cheap house o' cards. Next thing you know, there'll be a CRS naval base next door, and the day after that, someone is going to land 'military advisors' in Eutopia, and then you're right and properly fucked. If that's your kind of thing then fine, but I'm not going to stand for it if I can help it.

They're not going to play nice, so we shouldn't play nice either.

Alright, you make a good point.

Go ahead and base fighters out of the Robinson Airfield, I warn you though, the airfield will be overtaxed, you would want to bring some maintenance crews, extra parts, building materials, and some building coordinators.

I'm still not committing forces, but you can launch attacks from my country, just don't fuck up.

Karmic Knight wrote:Alright, you make a good point.

Go ahead and base fighters out of the Robinson Airfield, I warn you though, the airfield will be overtaxed, you would want to bring some maintenance crews, extra parts, building materials, and some building coordinators.

I'm still not committing forces, but you can launch attacks from my country, just don't fuck up.

Thanks, I'll send over some of my F-111's and Rafale's... Though strictly for the record -- you do realize that if I fly combat missions against the PRSF from your territory, that effectively means you've just declared war upon the PRSF yourself?

PeZook wrote:No, I didn't actually plot this out with Norseman: I figured Astarians would get their slaves from a variety of sources: not all of them would work in Astaria's best interest, or bow to the government's desires. I basically want to see how Norseman will handle this inevitable aspect of his country's profile: will he aid other countries in getting their citizens back (thus opposing some of his own people)? How will Astaria react if, say, a coast guard cutter inspects an Astarian-flagged ship and finds slaves in the cargo hold, and arrests the crew?

This is incredibly unfair to Norseman, however, because you're essentially writing him into a corner.

SiegeTank wrote:Thanks, I'll send over some of my F-111's and Rafale's... Though strictly for the record -- you do realize that if I fly combat missions against the PRSF from your territory, that effectively means you've just declared war upon the PRSF yourself?

Yep, but it isn't my forces getting shot at, yet.

My goal is to hold off on that for as long as possible, bad for the election year.

phongn wrote: This is incredibly unfair to Norseman, however, because you're essentially writing him into a corner.

Hmm...you have a point. I'll remove the posts and put the plotline on hold untill I've consulted it with him.

PeZook wrote:

Steve wrote: Did you plot this with Norse or is it something you did on your own accord?

No, I didn't actually plot this out with Norseman: I figured Astarians would get their slaves from a variety of sources: not all of them would work in Astaria's best interest, or bow to the government's desires.

Astarian law is fairly straightforward on the matter, since its based on British laws on the matter; in order for a slave purchase to be legal the slave must have been legally enslaved. To bring a slave in they'd have to move through customs, or circumvent customs. Then they would have to forge enslavement papers etc. In short this kind of thing would be as rare as white slavery of first world citizens is today.

Of course like white slavery, which is also illegal, it is fairly hard to recover anyone who has been smuggled undetected into Astaria. Isolation and brutalization tends to work wonders, especially since Astaria is also isolated from the wider internet and international phonelines. Even if a few are recovered every year odds are that the bulk never are.

With that in mind, and an average place of delivery cost of $150K-$200K for legitimate educated slaves its no wonder that a lot of less scrupulous "up and comming" middle-class people would jump at someone costing a mere $60K-$100K. So this cargo would come in at roughly $2.8M, minus transport etc. Operating costs pluss bribes would be around $350 000, purchase price $115000 ($5000 a head), so profits would be roughly $2.35M. Even so the ship would probably bring other more or less legitimate goods on both trips; guns and ammo going in I'd imagine. Not so sure what else could be going out.

Just some details for y'all.

PeZook wrote:I basically want to see how Norseman will handle this inevitable aspect of his country's profile: will he aid other countries in getting their citizens back (thus opposing some of his own people)?

If they are caught being smuggled in the smugglers will be arrested, and the cargo impounded. Once they're found to be foreigners they will be compensated from the sale of the ship, and treated with silk gloves untill they can be returned. If they are recovered from a business or private residence the compensation will be lower, probably out of the buyers insurance policy (unless the seller can be found, then he or she will be sent to jail and assets sold off to cover the compensation.)

PeZook wrote:How will Astaria react if, say, a coast guard cutter inspects an Astarian-flagged ship and finds slaves in the cargo hold, and arrests the crew?

Depends, if its inside your national waters Astaria would condemn the smugglers, and assure everyone that Astaria does its best to fight such smuggling. Note the Astarian gov't will even be telling the truth. They'd also find what assets of the smuggler's can be found, and confiscate them to cover any reasonable claims for compensation.

Steve wrote:Your post, PeZook, makes me consider Astarias' situation even more precarious. Astarias could potentially get away with things like buying Kanawha tribals captured by Shepistan or being the destination of other human trafficking rings from uncivilized areas, but more powerful foreign nations' citizens?

Note that Shepistani slaves would be legal, since they're enslaved and sold by a legal government. Slaves from other nations would not be legal since they had to be acquired criminally.

By the way you'd probably have to do a fairly thorough search since most operators would have hidden soundproofed compartments for just such an eventuality.

Steve wrote:All it takes is Astarian abolitionists getting identifiable photographs to link up to missing persons lists and to send the info out and you have an instant crisis and potential casus belli from a world full of nations that would probably love the slightest pretense to attack Astarias for idealistic or cynical reasons (even the uber-capitalists like the IRT and San Dorado probably see value in picking on a state like Astarias since it makes them look good).

Astaria is an island with paranoid defences, anything short of sending a half dozen battlegroups over will only lead to grief. If a foreigner is found illegally enslaved the National Police or BOSS will set them free. Because such enslavements are to their eyes illegal, immoral, and runs the danger of foreign intervention.

However I'll hold back on elaborating untill I've spoken to PeZook, I'm online right now if you have AIM or Yahoo or even MSN.

Huh. I see I made some rather troublesome assumptions about Astarian society.

Unofrtunately I can't chat right now...I guess I'll simply use that plot to create conflict with Sjenska instead, since I always intented to do that

So, essentially, the only slaves who'd be legal (or at least non-suspect) would be Astarians themselves and Shepistanis?

Since in PeZookia slavery is illegal, forging convincing papers is probably going to be next to impossible - when a cop notices, say, a PeZookian accent at the airport, the cover is blown.

Decided to share the Navy, Air Wing and Assault troops toolkit - I was making the pixel fleet for another project, but I found it very convenient to find out just what exactly I field in the area

This is version 0.1, I'll be updating it. Basically it has all the stuff that I have in my Navy right now, and also lists some of the very small ships I field, but there'll be more.

Air wings for Kiev, Kuznetzov and Mod. Kiev, as well as assault landing parties (tanks, machines, etc) for Rogov, Ropucha and Zubr.

Maybe some details on missile armament as well. Have fun, those who use Soviet hardware. I might make a US one like that some day.

PeZook wrote:Huh. I see I made some rather troublesome assumptions about Astarian society.

Mainly in terms of legality. Basically it would be highly illegal to smuggle slaves, but it still occurs occasionally.

PeZook wrote:Unofrtunately I can't chat right now...I guess I'll simply use that plot to create conflict with Sjenska instead, since I always intented to do that

So, essentially, the only slaves who'd be legal (or at least non-suspect) would be Astarians themselves and Shepistanis?

Weeeeell in theory there is a small trickle of Velarian slaves in South Velaria. Also if a slave trader got a legal deal from another government there's not much that could be done about it.

PeZook wrote:Since in PeZookia slavery is illegal, forging convincing papers is probably going to be next to impossible - when a cop notices, say, a PeZookian accent at the airport, the cover is blown.

Mainly you'd be forgering Astarian paperwork, claim they come from some distant region or what not. Also they'd probably be smuggled in inside of a large packing crate. Then moved to a somewhat distant region in the interior and sold off.

As I said it could be done, it's quite illegal though, and if discovered the government would immediately move to stop it. So the basic plot is possible as long as you bear in mind what the response would be.

A potential cause for legal problems would be if, say, a Border States government would issue "enslavement papers" on kidnapped citizens of another nation.

I mean, the papers are legal, it's just the asshole governmnent doesn't care the people were abducted in the first place

Okay, I put the post back in - but I mentioned that the Astarian guy is taking a great risk as well with this shipment, so that it doesn't imply Astaria is somehow complicit with kidnapping slaves from other powers.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Good Lord, a five hulled boat, made of Titanium. You do realise that one boat alone, even mass produced, will cost easily as much as one Nimitz Carrier, if not more?

It's actually five pressure vessels with an outer hull; like the Typhoon SSBN.

From wiki:

Two Delta class pressure hulls lie parallel with a third, smaller pressure hull above them (which protrudes just below the sail), and two other pressure hulls for torpedoes and steering gear.

Basically, I started out small; and proved the designs first:

Permit SSAN: First Shepistani SSN, it had one machinery vessel + command center vessel + weapons vessel and 21" torpedo tubes. Basically proven weapons in a brand new hull, with a natural circulation reactor that had been tested on land (ultimate meltdown proof reactor!) and put to sea. Now essentially a special projects boat since she was the first SSN built, etc.

Flasher SSAN: Same layout as Permit; but the pressure vessels are lengthened slightly as Shepistani engineers and workers get experience with this kind of construction. 26" Torpedo tubes installed to prove them. Basically product improved version thats a bit longer.

Gato SSAN: Uses Lengthened Flasher-type pressure vessels, for a total of: two machinery vessels + command center vessel + two weapons vessels. Built to prove the concept of a tandem pressure hull. Special Type 26" Tubes installed on last couple of boats in class.

Jack SSAN: Same layout as Gato, inclusion of Multipurpose trunks. Special Type 26" Tubes are now standard equipment.

Dudes, don't get so anxious about Shep's boats. They are just slightly larger than a Typhoon or Ohio (am I right?) and basically share the same characteristics.

They won't be too quiet to kill anyway, since equipping such an obnoxiously large boat with a non-propeller type propulsion is as far as I know unfeasible, and it is most certain they are dual-propeller.

Stas Bush wrote:Dudes, don't get so anxious about Shep's boats. They are just slightly larger than a Typhoon or Ohio (am I right?) and basically share the same characteristics.

They won't be too quiet to kill anyway, since equipping such an obnoxiously large boat with a non-propeller type propulsion is as far as I know unfeasible, and it is most certain they are dual-propeller.

He...hehehehe...

"obnoxiously large boat"...awesome choice of words

Friendly fire...

Awesome tool kit Stas.

Shady, did you notice the mention of mass graves found in the Sargonian capital?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Shady, did you notice the mention of mass graves found in the Sargonian capital?

Yes. And you will have my reaction within a few moments. Mass graves bring up some bad memories, I was hoping such things could be avoided here.

DarthShady wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Shady, did you notice the mention of mass graves found in the Sargonian capital?

Yes. And you will have my reaction within a few moments. Mass graves bring up some bad memories, I was hoping such things could be avoided here.

Oh.. I actually avoided putting up pics because of potential bad taste. Sorry.