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Bakustra wrote:On the other hand, doesn't the fact that people don't really pick up on any of the subtext in TPM indicate that Lucas was perhaps too subtle with it?

This isn't a case of subtlety. This is simply a complete lack of any explanation. The entire plot is basically left open for the audience to fill in the blanks. You can try to spin that as some sort of sophisticated writing, but this isn't a fucking Fellini movie - it's a glorified sci-fi serial starring a cartoon salamander. If it's unclear why any of the villains do the things they do then the movie just totally fails.

In the name of God and all that's holy, how has it not occurred to anyone that until Episode III, the villains of the prequels are not meant to be especially competent or menacing?

The big villain of the saga is the Empire, not a bunch of fucking yahoos that work for the incredibly menacing "Trade Federation." Governor Tarkin and Darth Vader are supposed to be beyond Darth Maul and Jango Fett, they are the arch-overlords of the goddamn galaxy at that point.

This whole thread is like complaining that Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone doesn't have the same dark tone as Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when that's arguably the entire freaking point.

You can argue that the prequels are weak movies because of this creative decision, but then it's only fair to consider what effect upping the ante in the prequels has on the overall coherence of the story. George Lucas didn't call his TPM lead villains the "Trade Federation" because he thought that was a scary name and he's just that much of a screaming idiot, he called them that because if he called them the "Planet Raping Bastards of KickPuppy IV" then it would seem a bit odd that Ben's so shook up about some weenie Empire come Episode IV.

Giving Darth Maul a bunch of scary lines could not possibly have improved anything, and I mean ANYTHING. He served two roles: one, be the "Boba Fett" of Episode I and stir up intrigue and publicity, and two, look cool, kill the mentor, and then be killed. Palpatine is the villain of the saga and in story terms it would be counter-productive, nay, irresponsible to the franchise to give him a henchman who even compares with Darth Motherfucking Vader.

(And for those of you who don't believe me, there's a chunk of documentary on the Episode I disc that's all about how carefully they designed the Battle Droids to look like total putzes compared with Stormtroopers. Lucas sent back about 30 designs that all looked like Generic Asskicking Robot.)

This whole thread is like complaining that Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone doesn't have the same dark tone as Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when that's arguably the entire freaking point.

Nobody's complaining about the tone of the film, they're complaining that the villains are incredibly lame and non-threatening. The tone might be lighter in the first HP book, but that doesn't mean it's inferior necessarily, and it still manages to have a competent villain who comes across as threatening in context.

Even if they were complaining about the tone, given that TPM came out after the OT, it would be more like complaining that Deathly Hallows was lighter and with less threatening villains than the earlier potter books, which probably would be a bad thing.

There doesn't necessarily have to be villain escalation, but it'd be nice if they were in the same leagues as the OT instead of My First Villain, with real lightsaber accessory.

Channel72 wrote:

Bakustra wrote:On the other hand, doesn't the fact that people don't really pick up on any of the subtext in TPM indicate that Lucas was perhaps too subtle with it?

This isn't a case of subtlety. This is simply a complete lack of any explanation. The entire plot is basically left open for the audience to fill in the blanks. You can try to spin that as some sort of sophisticated writing, but this isn't a fucking Fellini movie - it's a glorified sci-fi serial. If it's unclear why any of the villains do the things they do then the movie just totally fails.

I understood Sidious' plan, on a basic level, the first time I saw the movie. I was eight years of age at the time. Perhaps you should not be so quick to project your own response to the movie onto other people. Seriously, what's so hard to understand?
1. His patsies blockade a minor sector capital as a tax protest. They pressure Queen Amidala into signing a treaty giving them favored-partner status to get out of the trade taxes.
2. The Chancellor secretly sends Jedi to intervene and negotiate a settlement.
3. Palpatine learns of this and orders his patsies to kill the Jedi and invade Naboo.
Now, at this point, his plan is to have the Republic become discredited because of its inability to stop the invasion of a sovereign planet, laying the seeds for a separatist movement. Killing the Jedi is necessary to keep them from talking the Trade Federation into a reasonable solution.
4. The Jedi survive and get Amidala off-planet.
At this point, his initial plan is in jeopardy, but he sends his apprentice/enforcer to try and recapture Amidala, and sets things in place for a Plan B.
5. Amidala escapes again, and arrives on Coruscant. The Senate sympathizes with her, but is unable to act because of various groups, including the Trade Fed, stonewalling.
At this point, he has essentially achieved his major goal. No matter what happens, the Republic let one of its members get invaded, and bickered uselessly rather than do anything. From this point one, whatever happens is icing on the cake. However, he also tries for a second goal of his:
6. He convinces Amidala that the stonewalling is Valorum's fault as Chancellor, and she moves for a vote of no-confidence, which passes.
7. Palpatine wins the position of Chancellor, but tells her that he cannot move immediately.
Here, Palpatine proceeds with the next step of his plan. He gains the Chancellery, thanks to his wide support, but this is something that he could have won at other points, presumably, and info from the supplementary materials confirms this.
8. Amidala takes off for Naboo, the big final battle, Trade Fed defeated, Maul dies.
The only part that hurts him is Maul's death, and that doesn't hurt him that much, since he either has Dooku on the line or will shortly. His plan is only "vague" because it's a simple plan that covers the majority of the contingencies. He's actually succeeded by halfway through the movie, which is why I wouldn't consider him the primary villain of the movie, since the focus is on the characters struggling against the Trade Federation.

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I don't think that making the Trade Federation more effective as villains requires making them any more competent, to be honest. Removing most of the slapstick in the final battle with the battledroids would do that. The final battle is where I have most of my problems with TPM, to be honest, since it mixes slapstick comedy with drama, and that is not only jarring when compared to the climax of all the other movies (and I think Lucas recognized this), but also difficult, if not impossible to pull off in its own right. My problems with TPM are easily fixed.

1. His patsies blockade a minor sector capital as a tax protest. They pressure Queen Amidala into signing a treaty giving them favored-partner status to get out of the trade taxes.

No, the treaty is to make the invasion legal. They mention nothing about favored partner status or the treaty being used to avoid taxes. Is that stuff mentioned in the book or something?

I don't think that making the Trade Federation more effective as villains requires making them any more competent, to be honest. Removing most of the slapstick in the final battle with the battledroids would do that.

Shit, showing the battle-droids actually being effective in any way would do that. They are 0% effective against Jedi, even in huge numbers, and they hardly ever kill anybody on screen. Most of the times in which they're competent (i.e. they seem to do ok at killing Gungans, despite taking terrible losses as they do it) are not really shown on screen very much. I haven't watched it for a while (so correct me if I'm wrong here), but from memory most of the Battle with the Gungans screen-time consists primarily of shots of the Gungans doing pretty well holding up against the army, plus the stupid comedy crap with Jar Jar accidentally being a useful combatant. Even the Naboo security volunteers seem to be several times more effective than a battledroid.

They don't fare much better in AOTC either, they seemed to have introduced Super Battledroids solely because the normal ones sucked so bad and they needed something a little more threatening.

Droidekas are better because the Jedi are actually forced to retreat, but they only appear quite rarely and the second time they show up they get obliterated by a starfighter.

I haven't watched it for a while (so correct me if I'm wrong here), but from memory most of the Battle with the Gungans screen-time consists primarily of shots of the Gungans doing pretty well holding up against the army, plus the stupid comedy crap with Jar Jar accidentally being a useful combatant.

Actually, most of that battle was the gungans retreating almost as soon as the battle droids broke their ranks. If I remember right, it was jar Jar who ordered the retreat. Remember, the only reason the gungans won was because the droids fell apart without their command ship.

No I know the droids were winning overall, but I don't really remember any shots of gungans getting slaughtered or anything like that.

adam_grif wrote:

1. His patsies blockade a minor sector capital as a tax protest. They pressure Queen Amidala into signing a treaty giving them favored-partner status to get out of the trade taxes.

No, the treaty is to make the invasion legal. They mention nothing about favored partner status or the treaty being used to avoid taxes. Is that stuff mentioned in the book or something?

It's right in the opening crawl about the taxation of trade routes, and they invade Naboo because this provides them an out in some way. Meanwhile, they talk about a treaty before invading. I read between the lines, but if you have an alternate interpretation?

I don't think that making the Trade Federation more effective as villains requires making them any more competent, to be honest. Removing most of the slapstick in the final battle with the battledroids would do that.

Shit, showing the battle-droids actually being effective in any way would do that. They are 0% effective against Jedi, even in huge numbers, and they hardly ever kill anybody on screen.

Do you bitch about stormtroopers' crappy aim, too?

Most of the times in which they're competent (i.e. they seem to do ok at killing Gungans, despite taking terrible losses as they do it) are not really shown on screen very much. I haven't watched it for a while (so correct me if I'm wrong here), but from memory most of the Battle with the Gungans screen-time consists primarily of shots of the Gungans doing pretty well holding up against the army, plus the stupid comedy crap with Jar Jar accidentally being a useful combatant. Even the Naboo security volunteers seem to be several times more effective than a battledroid.

I find it more interesting that they proceed to apparently arrest the Gungans after the shield generator is destroyed, but my opinion on that will probably touch off a firestorm about authorial intent.

Do you bitch about stormtroopers' crappy aim, too?

Not in this thread, but if it was a topic about crappy henchmen in general I would be, yeah. That said, they are a small step up in that they do something menacing by killing Luke's foster family, and aren't a source of constant comic relief (the only time I can really recall them being used that way is bumping their head on the Death Star). From a design standpoint I'd argue that they're superior, they look far more intimidating than a scrawny battle droid does.

adam_grif wrote:

Do you bitch about stormtroopers' crappy aim, too?

Not in this thread, but if it was a topic about crappy henchmen in general I would be, yeah. That said, they are a small step up in that they do something menacing by killing Luke's foster family, and aren't a source of constant comic relief (the only time I can really recall them being used that way is bumping their head on the Death Star). From a design standpoint I'd argue that they're superior, they look far more intimidating than a scrawny battle droid does.

The point is that killing the hero within twenty minutes of the film opening is conducive to some films, but not the grand epics like Star Wars. Complaining that the villains can't kill the heroes at ease is a bit of a ridiculous complaint from an out-of-universe standpoint. Bad aim is something that most films have to have in order to create tension while avoiding the problem of killing off the protagonist.

Bakustra wrote: The point is that killing the hero within twenty minutes of the film opening is conducive to some films, but not the grand epics like Star Wars. Complaining that the villains can't kill the heroes at ease is a bit of a ridiculous complaint from an out-of-universe standpoint. Bad aim is something that most films have to have in order to create tension while avoiding the problem of killing off the protagonist.

That's not what I'm saying at all

The problem isn't that they don't massacre 2 central characters in the opening scenes of the film, but rather that even when faced with swarms of them, there's no tension in the scene because they're totally useless. Maybe if they had to retreat or find an alternate solution when they are significantly outnumbered? The only time they avoid a direct fight with them is when they walk out into that hangar with the drop-ships and literally the whole army is of them is there.

Later on when they run into the hanger and the security dude is like "there's too many" Qui Gon is all "shouldn't be a problem".

adam_grif wrote:

Bakustra wrote: The point is that killing the hero within twenty minutes of the film opening is conducive to some films, but not the grand epics like Star Wars. Complaining that the villains can't kill the heroes at ease is a bit of a ridiculous complaint from an out-of-universe standpoint. Bad aim is something that most films have to have in order to create tension while avoiding the problem of killing off the protagonist.

That's not what I'm saying at all

The problem isn't that they don't massacre 2 central characters in the opening scenes of the film, but rather that even when faced with swarms of them, there's no tension in the scene because they're totally useless. Maybe if they had to retreat or find an alternate solution when they are significantly outnumbered? The only time they avoid a direct fight with them is when they walk out into that hangar with the drop-ships and literally the whole army is of them is there.

Later on when they run into the hanger and the security dude is like "there's too many" Qui Gon is all "shouldn't be a problem".

I seem to have misinterpreted you, then. Itchy trigger finger on the subject, sorry. In any case, the queen does go around them in the palace battle. The whole thing with Qui-Gon is to show how amazing Jedi are, and it's a flaw in the film that battledroids come out looking more pathetic instead, I'd say.

I seem to have misinterpreted you, then. Itchy trigger finger on the subject, sorry.

No worries, it's an extremely common situation on these here boards.

The whole thing with Qui-Gon is to show how amazing Jedi are, and it's a flaw in the film that battledroids come out looking more pathetic instead, I'd say.

Which fits right in with the theme of this thread, "it was poorly written"

Bakustra wrote:On the other hand, doesn't the fact that people don't really pick up on any of the subtext in TPM indicate that Lucas was perhaps too subtle with it? I noticed it (but on rewatching, since I first saw it in theaters), and you noticed it, but there are many people who don't.

I first saw this movie when I was 14. I didn't have any problem understanding it. There is nothing "subtle" about the treaty being coercive bullshit, and something for Sidious to manipulate the Trade Federation with. I can't believe anyone thinks that the crisis would've been "neutralized" had the treaty been signed.

Imagine if a NATO country were invaded, and the rest of the alliance sat on its ass out of sheer apathy and corruption. Now imagine that the president of that country were forced to sign a peace treaty at gunpoint, assuming all the blame for his own country being invaded. NATO would still lose all credibility and be completely fucked. Don't even "imagine" that; that's basically what happened in TPM except that the names were changed around.

Nobody's complaining about the tone of the film, they're complaining that the villains are incredibly lame and non-threatening.

These are obviously related qualities.

There doesn't necessarily have to be villain escalation, but it'd be nice if they were in the same leagues as the OT instead of My First Villain, with real lightsaber accessory.

Cause there were so many people saying this in 1999 after Darth Maul casually cut down the film's lead character. Darth Sidious is also a hardcore bastard who, as a direct result of the events shown in TPM, takes over the universe.

Who the hell are you complaining about? Nute Gunray? The guy who is a catspaw in movie 1, comic relief in movie 2, and pity fodder in movie 3? Forgive another analogy, but that's like complaining that Admiral Piett isn't a scary villain. It's not relevant to anything.

As for the battle droids, despite the fact that they were designed to suck by Lucas himself (since stormtroopers are entrenched in pop culture as a bunch of bumbling misfits whether we like it or not), they leave lots of smoking Jedi and clone corpses behind in Episode II. Complaining that they are useless because they can't kill Jedi in TPM (remember how they are the main characters?) is spurious, and willfully leaves out that a few moments after the cheap droids are introduced, the droidekas roll up and the Jedi run like hell. It takes a spaceship to kill those bastards later in the film.

1. His patsies blockade a minor sector capital as a tax protest. They pressure Queen Amidala into signing a treaty giving them favored-partner status to get out of the trade taxes.
2. The Chancellor secretly sends Jedi to intervene and negotiate a settlement.
3. Palpatine learns of this and orders his patsies to kill the Jedi and invade Naboo.
Now, at this point, his plan is to have the Republic become discredited because of its inability to stop the invasion of a sovereign planet, laying the seeds for a separatist movement. Killing the Jedi is necessary to keep them from talking the Trade Federation into a reasonable solution.
4. The Jedi survive and get Amidala off-planet.
At this point, his initial plan is in jeopardy, but he sends his apprentice/enforcer to try and recapture Amidala, and sets things in place for a Plan B.
5. Amidala escapes again, and arrives on Coruscant. The Senate sympathizes with her, but is unable to act because of various groups, including the Trade Fed, stonewalling.
At this point, he has essentially achieved his major goal. No matter what happens, the Republic let one of its members get invaded, and bickered uselessly rather than do anything. From this point one, whatever happens is icing on the cake. However, he also tries for a second goal of his:
6. He convinces Amidala that the stonewalling is Valorum's fault as Chancellor, and she moves for a vote of no-confidence, which passes.
7. Palpatine wins the position of Chancellor, but tells her that he cannot move immediately.
Here, Palpatine proceeds with the next step of his plan. He gains the Chancellery, thanks to his wide support, but this is something that he could have won at other points, presumably, and info from the supplementary materials confirms this.
8. Amidala takes off for Naboo, the big final battle, Trade Fed defeated, Maul dies.
The only part that hurts him is Maul's death, and that doesn't hurt him that much, since he either has Dooku on the line or will shortly. His plan is only "vague" because it's a simple plan that covers the majority of the contingencies. He's actually succeeded by halfway through the movie, which is why I wouldn't consider him the primary villain of the movie, since the focus is on the characters struggling against the Trade Federation.

1. The treaty is for the legality of the invasion. They mention nothing of equal partner status.
3. Why? Just send a droid to tell the Jedi that their will be no negotiation and send them on their way. The Jedi are here as ambassadors so they can't take any violent action unless provoked.
4. Why is his plan in jeopardy? Why does he need Amidala? Why does he need to send Maul after her?
5. There is nothing that shows that the Senate sympathizes with her.
6. Why try to stop Amidala from reaching Coruscant in the first place? Maybe Palpatine could have someone else push for a vote of no confidence but there is nothing in the movie to confirm this.
8. Why is Maul even on Naboo? The outcome of Naboo is completely irrelevant to Palpatine's plans.

The problem is that Palpatine's plan is poorly explained. Combined this with boring characters with unclear motivations and it makes for a dull movie.

I guess Shane had a shitty villain in Jack Wilson (played by Jack Palance). He only had a few lines, and all he did was shoot a hog farmer in the street.

And you know what, that's still more that what Darth Maul did. By killing the hog farmer half way through the movie (he kills him by baiting him into pulling his weapon first, so Wilson has an excuse to shoot him) Jack Wilson establishes himself as a bad guy not to be messed with. In comparison, Darth Maul stands around in the back ground has one line of dialogue (far less dialogue than Jack Wilson) and only does something significant (killing a main character) at the very end of the movie, just a few minutes before his own death.

As for the battle droids, despite the fact that they were designed to suck by Lucas himself (since stormtroopers are entrenched in pop culture as a bunch of bumbling misfits whether we like it or not), they leave lots of smoking Jedi and clone corpses behind in Episode II. Complaining that they are useless because they can't kill Jedi in TPM (remember how they are the main characters?) is spurious, and willfully leaves out that a few moments after the cheap droids are introduced, the droidekas roll up and the Jedi run like hell. It takes a spaceship to kill those bastards later in the film.

I really don't see why its a good idea to intentionally make the foot soldiers of the bad guys completely suck. It really kills the tension of the film. At least get rid of the slapstick comedy element to them. As for the droidekas, they are only present for a few minutes in the film. If the average battle droid was portrayed better you wouldn't need the droidekas.

stormthebeaches wrote:

1. His patsies blockade a minor sector capital as a tax protest. They pressure Queen Amidala into signing a treaty giving them favored-partner status to get out of the trade taxes.
2. The Chancellor secretly sends Jedi to intervene and negotiate a settlement.
3. Palpatine learns of this and orders his patsies to kill the Jedi and invade Naboo.
Now, at this point, his plan is to have the Republic become discredited because of its inability to stop the invasion of a sovereign planet, laying the seeds for a separatist movement. Killing the Jedi is necessary to keep them from talking the Trade Federation into a reasonable solution.
4. The Jedi survive and get Amidala off-planet.
At this point, his initial plan is in jeopardy, but he sends his apprentice/enforcer to try and recapture Amidala, and sets things in place for a Plan B.
5. Amidala escapes again, and arrives on Coruscant. The Senate sympathizes with her, but is unable to act because of various groups, including the Trade Fed, stonewalling.
At this point, he has essentially achieved his major goal. No matter what happens, the Republic let one of its members get invaded, and bickered uselessly rather than do anything. From this point one, whatever happens is icing on the cake. However, he also tries for a second goal of his:
6. He convinces Amidala that the stonewalling is Valorum's fault as Chancellor, and she moves for a vote of no-confidence, which passes.
7. Palpatine wins the position of Chancellor, but tells her that he cannot move immediately.
Here, Palpatine proceeds with the next step of his plan. He gains the Chancellery, thanks to his wide support, but this is something that he could have won at other points, presumably, and info from the supplementary materials confirms this.
8. Amidala takes off for Naboo, the big final battle, Trade Fed defeated, Maul dies.
The only part that hurts him is Maul's death, and that doesn't hurt him that much, since he either has Dooku on the line or will shortly. His plan is only "vague" because it's a simple plan that covers the majority of the contingencies. He's actually succeeded by halfway through the movie, which is why I wouldn't consider him the primary villain of the movie, since the focus is on the characters struggling against the Trade Federation.

1. The treaty is for the legality of the invasion. They mention nothing of equal partner status.

They mention the treaty before the invasion. How can they use it to legalize an invasion that won't even occur?

3. Why? Just send a droid to tell the Jedi that their will be no negotiation and send them on their way. The Jedi are here as ambassadors so they can't take any violent action unless provoked.

The Trade Fed are ready to give up when they hear the Jedi have come aboard. He needs to ensure that the Jedi can't talk their way into wrecking his plan.

4. Why is his plan in jeopardy? Why does he need Amidala? Why does he need to send Maul after her?

Ideally, so that she can be paraded in front of the Senate to talk about Trade Federation atrocities. She then comes right to him, so Maul's search is called off. His plan is in jeopardy because it's weakened without Amidala and the treaty. It's still successful, but his patsies are more likely to survive, and his case is less forceful.

5. There is nothing that shows that the Senate sympathizes with her.

Like when they vote Valorum out of office? Gee, I wonder what that could mean...

6. Why try to stop Amidala from reaching Coruscant in the first place? Maybe Palpatine could have someone else push for a vote of no confidence but there is nothing in the movie to confirm this.

It's not to stop her from reaching Coruscant. Maul doesn't continue his search to Coruscant, after all. He's there to make sure that she doesn't do anything unusual and to make sure that she considers time a matter of urgency.

8. Why is Maul even on Naboo? The outcome of Naboo is completely irrelevant to Palpatine's plans.

To keep the Trade Federation in line and keep them from doing anything too stupid, since they are the weak link in Palpatine's plan.

The problem is that Palpatine's plan is poorly explained. Combined this with boring characters with unclear motivations and it makes for a dull movie.

So, what is the difference between poorly explained and subtle for you? Is it code for "personal preference"?

Jim Raynor wrote:

Bakustra wrote:On the other hand, doesn't the fact that people don't really pick up on any of the subtext in TPM indicate that Lucas was perhaps too subtle with it? I noticed it (but on rewatching, since I first saw it in theaters), and you noticed it, but there are many people who don't.

I first saw this movie when I was 14. I didn't have any problem understanding it. There is nothing "subtle" about the treaty being coercive bullshit, and something for Sidious to manipulate the Trade Federation with. I can't believe anyone thinks that the crisis would've been "neutralized" had the treaty been signed.

Imagine if a NATO country were invaded, and the rest of the alliance sat on its ass out of sheer apathy and corruption. Now imagine that the president of that country were forced to sign a peace treaty at gunpoint, assuming all the blame for his own country being invaded. NATO would still lose all credibility and be completely fucked. Don't even "imagine" that; that's basically what happened in TPM except that the names were changed around.

I agree (and was younger when I first saw it, and had no troubles understanding the plot), but the preponderance of people who don't understand it suggests that Lucas may have been too subtle with some of the important elements.

stormthebeaches wrote:

As for the battle droids, despite the fact that they were designed to suck by Lucas himself (since stormtroopers are entrenched in pop culture as a bunch of bumbling misfits whether we like it or not), they leave lots of smoking Jedi and clone corpses behind in Episode II. Complaining that they are useless because they can't kill Jedi in TPM (remember how they are the main characters?) is spurious, and willfully leaves out that a few moments after the cheap droids are introduced, the droidekas roll up and the Jedi run like hell. It takes a spaceship to kill those bastards later in the film.

I really don't see why its a good idea to intentionally make the foot soldiers of the bad guys completely suck. It really kills the tension of the film. At least get rid of the slapstick comedy element to them. As for the droidekas, they are only present for a few minutes in the film. If the average battle droid was portrayed better you wouldn't need the droidekas.

So how do you wish to maintain tension while avoiding killing off major, developed, characters the audience will sympathize with? Besides, the Jedi do run from battle droids when there are too many of them. The fact that this is a few dozen rather than the dozen stormtroopers in the OT is easily compensated by the main characters being Jedi. Slapstick itself isn't present in the film with the battledroids until the climax. More and more it seems that most people's problems with TPM originate with the final battle, and the Gungan Army and Space sections, including my own.


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Note for the blind: When I say that I understood the plot at the tender age of eight or nine, I mean that I understood the basic outline, not that I understood most of the background parts or "all of the details". Before jumping on myself or Raynor, please read this little disclaimer and reconsider.

Bakustra wrote:1. His patsies blockade a minor sector capital as a tax protest. They pressure Queen Amidala into signing a treaty giving them favored-partner status to get out of the trade taxes.

Like everyone else who ever tries to explain this plot, literally 75% of the things you say in your list of points are your own inferences; they are not even implied in the movie. The movie mentions nothing about "favored-partner status" as the purpose of the treaty. As far as we know, the only thing the treaty does is make the invasion legal; whatever that even really means. Does that mean the Trade Feds can stay there indefinitely? That's a rhetorical question by the way, because you don't know the answer. Any answer you give will be a complete guess, since the movie never says.

Bakustra wrote:Killing the Jedi is necessary to keep them from talking the Trade Federation into a reasonable solution.

Another complete guess on your part. The movie provides no compelling reason behind Sidious's decision to kill the Jedi, other than to initiate an action sequence. Again, he could have just asked them to leave.

Bakustra wrote:At this point, his initial plan is in jeopardy, but he sends his apprentice/enforcer to try and recapture Amidala, and sets things in place for a Plan B.

What initial plan? To get the treaty signed? I thought he doesn't care if the treaty gets signed one way or another, so why send Maul after her?

Bakustra wrote:At this point, he has essentially achieved his major goal. No matter what happens, the Republic let one of its members get invaded, and bickered uselessly rather than do anything. From this point one, whatever happens is icing on the cake."

What is his major goal? To get elected Chancellor, or just generally cause disillusionment in the Senate? Again, the problem is nobody really knows what his initial plan was, and which events in the movie were part of his far-seeing, master plan, versus merely fortuitous happenings which happened to work out well for him.

Bakustra wrote:It's not to stop her from reaching Coruscant. Maul doesn't continue his search to Coruscant, after all. He's there to make sure that she doesn't do anything unusual and to make sure that she considers time a matter of urgency.

Okay...he's there to make sure that she doesn't do anything unusual?? Is that why he gets into a lightsabre fight with Qui Gon? Again, you're just filling in the blanks with your own guesses. We have no clue why Maul is there. At face value, it seems he's there to bring her back to Naboo so she can sign the treaty, which .... Palpatine doesn't actually care about. And if he does care about it, why doesn't Maul follow her to Coruscant?

Look, I understand what you're saying - you're basically saying that Palpatine had a broad, amorphous, and flexible initial plan, which allowed for many contingencies. The fact it's barely explained in the movie clearly doesn't bother you - I get that. But what I'm saying, and what the general complaint among TPM detractors here amounts to, is that this makes the movie completely uncompelling. For example, the movie shows a whole sequence where Maul lands on Tatooine, sends out probes, and generally looks threatening. But the scene just lacks any tension, because I don't know what the consequences will be if Maul succeeds in his nefarious plan. What happens if he captures the Queen? Will he kill her? No, apparently he'll just drag her back to Naboo because he wants her to sign a treaty which... makes the invasion legal...which...uh...does what exactly?
See, it's not like we're all playing stupid here; we get that Palpatine had some broad plan to use the invasion to sow seeds of discord in the Senate. Again, the point is that the way the movie presents it is completely uncompelling.

They mention the treaty before the invasion. How can they use it to legalize an invasion that won't even occur?

After the Trade Federation invade they try to get the Queen to sign a treaty to make the invasion legal. This is stated several times during the film.

The Trade Fed are ready to give up when they hear the Jedi have come aboard. He needs to ensure that the Jedi can't talk their way into wrecking his plan.

All Sidious needed to do was remind the Trade Federation that since the Jedi are here as ambassadors they cannot intervene. He then tells them to send a droid (if he is afraid that the Jedi will talk the Trade Fed leaders out of it) to tell the Jedi that there will be no negotiations and that the Trade Federation will invade the planet and then send them on their way.

Ideally, so that she can be paraded in front of the Senate to talk about Trade Federation atrocities. She then comes right to him, so Maul's search is called off. His plan is in jeopardy because it's weakened without Amidala and the treaty. It's still successful, but his patsies are more likely to survive, and his case is less forceful.

She already was going to the Senate. Are you saying that Palpatine sent Maul to force her to go to a place where she already was going? And how is his plan in jeopardy without Amidala and the treaty? The lack of a treaty strengthens his hand if anything, since a treaty would legalize the invasion and end the crises. And how is Maul

Like when they vote Valorum out of office? Gee, I wonder what that could mean...

It could mean that Valorum was unpopular and they were just looking for any excuse to get rid of him. If it was Amidala that convinced them then Palpatine is a fool for trying to keep her on Naboo when he should have let her go to the Senate.

It's not to stop her from reaching Coruscant. Maul doesn't continue his search to Coruscant, after all. He's there to make sure that she doesn't do anything unusual and to make sure that she considers time a matter of urgency.

So Maul is their to scare her into going to Coruscant faster? If that is the case then why did he attack them only when they were leaving Tattoine? Having Maul chase after her is a dumb move because it informs the Jedi that there is Sith involvement.

To keep the Trade Federation in line and keep them from doing anything too stupid, since they are the weak link in Palpatine's plan.

The Trade Federation having already achieved their purpose in his plan. They have humiliated Valorum and now a vote of no confidence has been declared against him. Besides, this still doesn't explain why Maul choose to fight in the final battle since its outcome is completely irrelevant to his masters plans.

So, what is the difference between poorly explained and subtle for you? Is it code for "personal preference"?

Subtle is not throwing things in your face. This usually relates to characters or political points that the writer is trying to preach. Poorly explained is when basic plot elements are left open.

I first saw this movie when I was 14. I didn't have any problem understanding it. There is nothing "subtle" about the treaty being coercive bullshit, and something for Sidious to manipulate the Trade Federation with. I can't believe anyone thinks that the crisis would've been "neutralized" had the treaty been signed.

Imagine if a NATO country were invaded, and the rest of the alliance sat on its ass out of sheer apathy and corruption. Now imagine that the president of that country were forced to sign a peace treaty at gunpoint, assuming all the blame for his own country being invaded. NATO would still lose all credibility and be completely fucked. Don't even "imagine" that; that's basically what happened in TPM except that the names were changed around.

What a load of BS. We have nothing to indicate that the Republic acts like NATO. If anything, its more like the UN. Also, the treaty must have had a reasonable chance of working since the Trade Federation agreed to go along with the idea. I would imagine that an unethical company like the Trade Federation must be brilliant at finding legal loopholes and they would know in an instant if the treaty wouldn't work.

So how do you wish to maintain tension while avoiding killing off major, developed, characters the audience will sympathize with? Besides, the Jedi do run from battle droids when there are too many of them. The fact that this is a few dozen rather than the dozen stormtroopers in the OT is easily compensated by the main characters being Jedi. Slapstick itself isn't present in the film with the battledroids until the climax. More and more it seems that most people's problems with TPM originate with the final battle, and the Gungan Army and Space sections, including my own.

The slapstick stuff is present from when the droids are first introduced. Look at how idiotic they act when they are sent to kill the Jedi. Compare this to when the Storm Troopers are first introduced, they charge in, kicking ass and taking names. It be honest everything about the droids was wrong, from their skinny look, to their high pitched voices, to the fact that they constantly show fear. Also, the only time the Jedi are forced to retreat is when they are confronted with the Droidakas.

Perhaps the best way to illustrate the actual problem here is with the following recreation of a typical experience watching Phantom Menace.

So, picture this: you're in the theatre, watching Phantom Menace. You've got some popcorn and some soda, and the visuals are absolutely stunning. It's about one-third of the way through the movie, and Darth Maul's awesome looking spaceship lands on Tatooine at dusk. A dark, cloaked figure emerges from the ship as ominous, tribal music plays in the background. We see his visage; intense, menacing eyes under black and red facial paint. Clearly, you don't want to fuck with this guy. Surely our heroes are in danger now.

But...strangely, you don't really feel tense about this. You should be feeling tense; but you're just not. Hmm...what's going on? This guy looks really threatening, and our heroes are in danger, aren't they? Wait a minute...what is this bad-ass motherfucker even doing here? Oh...that's right, he's after the Queen. He wants to bring her back to Naboo. Shit, we can't let that happen. Wait...what happens if he brings her back to Naboo? Um...right, they'll make her sign that treaty. Okay. We don't want that to happen, because that would mean... uh... the invasion would be legal, I guess? Which, um...hmmm. But seriously, this guy looks really bad-ass.

Then, on the second viewing it's even worse, because now you know that Sidious doesn't necessarily even care if the treaty is signed or not. Suddenly, this scene is immediately drained of all tension and drama, ultimately amounting to nothing and serving as a nice microcosm of the entire movie.

Channel72 wrote:But...strangely, you don't really feel tense about this. You should be feeling tense; but you're just not. Hmm...what's going on? This guy looks really threatening, and our heroes are in danger, aren't they? Wait a minute...what is this bad-ass motherfucker even doing here? Oh...that's right, he's after the Queen. He wants to bring her back to Naboo. Shit, we can't let that happen. Wait...what happens if he brings her back to Naboo? Um...right, they'll make her sign that treaty. Okay. We don't want that to happen, because that would mean... uh... the invasion would be legal, I guess?

You're seriously overthinking this and trying to create bigger problems than there actually were. The stakes really aren't that obscure. First of all, you didn't mention that if Darth Maul finds them then he's going to try to fucking KILL Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. There go the main protagonists of the movie. After he kills our heroes and hauls the queen back to Naboo, the corporate assholes would get what they want, or at least the government's ability to stop them would be undermined. Also, that evil-looking wizard guy who's pulling the strings will see more success in his conspiracy.

Then, on the second viewing it's even worse, because now you know that Sidious doesn't necessarily even care if the treaty is signed or not. Suddenly, this scene is immediately drained of all tension and drama, ultimately amounting to nothing and serving as a nice microcosm of the entire movie.

He doesn't care about the treaty for the Trade Federation's sake, and his plan was general and adaptable enough that it could withstand changes such as whether or not the treaty was signed. But it doesn't take much speculation to guess that Sidious didn't like the Jedi fucking around with it and introducing new variables. It doesn't take much speculation to imagine that perhaps he may have liked for the treaty to be signed, so that Naboo's oppression could be dragged out a little longer for the purpose of drawing sympathy. And so that HE would have the opportunity to play hero be the one to liberate his home planet.

And despite whatever Sidious might have intended behind the scenes, the Trade Federation was still there and genuinely fighting in its own self interest. No drama or suspense? The corporate assholes were still fucking people over and trying to get away with it.

You're seriously overthinking this and trying to create bigger problems than there actually were. The stakes really aren't that obscure. First of all, you didn't mention that if Darth Maul finds them then he's going to try to fucking KILL Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. There go the main protagonists of the movie. After he kills our heroes and hauls the queen back to Naboo, the corporate assholes would get what they want, or at least the government's ability to stop them would be undermined. Also, that evil-looking wizard guy who's pulling the strings will see more success in his conspiracy.

Why? Why does Sidious want to drag the Queen back to Naboo? How will that benefit his plans?

stormthebeaches wrote:Why? Why does Sidious want to drag the Queen back to Naboo? How will that benefit his plans?

It's right there in that second part of the post that you cut out.