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Darth Yan wrote:Vader could have easily tried to kill Luke but didn't. His whole "Rule the galaxy as father and son" implied that vader's reasons for recruiting luke was as much from a desire not to kill him as practicallity. Also, he knew that anakin was once a hero, and in his youthful optimism he was willing to believe that there was some good that the emporer hadn't squashed out. As I said earlier, it was a gamble, but it did pay off.

I was never really sure how I felt about that. My initial impression was that Vader was lying about that in the same sense the Emperor was lying about having Luke kill him; obviously the Emperor wasn't suicidal, he wanted to tempt Luke with the possibility. Likewise I thought Vader didn't really want to overthrow the Emperor, he was just trying to lure Luke in. Then I thought "Well, maybe Vader was serious in Empire." But that would change the nature of his interaction with the Emperor. I took the relation between Vader and the Emperor at face value, that Palpy meant it when he called Vader friend. Only later did I come to wonder if it wasn't a genuine friendship of respect but a master/slave situation. I guess how you view it depends on how you prefer Vader's position to be, a strong sith user willingly submitting to his respected master or a thrall in service to the devil. I prefer Vader strong and powerful but the only way to work in the whole good in you thing is if he is more of a slave.

Ignoring ROTJ, I'd take Vader's offer at face value. My Vader chafes under the emperor and believes himself to be worthier to rule the Empire, especially with his son at his side.

It's why I interpreted the "we have a new enemy" scene in TESB to be a game-changer for Vader. He already knew about Luke, but that scene was apparently showing us that it was news to the emperor. I get the feeling that Vader had been covertly hunting Luke and hoping that the emperor wouldn't get wind of it until it was too late.

Notice how Vader tried to downplay Luke as a threat? Then he persuaded the emperor into agreeing that Luke would be a "great asset?" IMO, that was Vader trying to buy time.

wyrm wrote: If, however, you go instantly from two speeds of equal energy but on opposite sides of the "barrier", then the energy cost can be realistic and possibly 0. What we lack is a theory that correlates superluminal speed to total energy of the particle.

How does this work. Can this be expained in layman's terms?

doesn't entering another universe also require infinite energy?

Abacus wrote:If RotJ were to be rewritten, I believe that the story itself was not necessarily bad, but needed to be fleshed out more. An example being that, at the end, it would have been nice to see someone, maybe Leia, explaining about how the Empire was breaking up into warlordism in the wake of the Emperor's death.

ROTJ was generally a pretty good movie. It has a mediocre reputation because 1) it wasn't as good as ESB, and 2) Ewoks.

More generally, ROTJ suffers from the same inevitable writing issues that just about every final installment in a series suffers from: wrap-up syndrome. Inevitably, the final installment of any series is faced with the difficult task of wrapping up all the interesting plot threads that made the series so compelling; and that's very difficult to do satisfactorily, especially if the story wasn't completely planned out. For example, in ESB it's revealed that there is another potential Jedi somewhere. Oooh... interesting. But then it turns out to be Leia, which is pretty irrelevant since she never does anything with her potential at any point in the movie.

But overall, ROTJ is still a pretty good movie, and I think the ending space battle along with the throne room scene in the Death Star are as dramatic and compelling as anything in ESB.

Galvatron wrote:It's why I interpreted the "we have a new enemy" scene in TESB to be a game-changer for Vader. He already knew about Luke, but that scene was apparently showing us that it was news to the emperor. I get the feeling that Vader had been covertly hunting Luke and hoping that the emperor wouldn't get wind of it until it was too late.

Notice how Vader tried to downplay Luke as a threat? Then he persuaded the emperor into agreeing that Luke would be a "great asset?" IMO, that was Vader trying to buy time.

In earlier drafts of the ROTJ script, the friction between Vader and the Emperor is very pronounced. More specifically, Grand Moff Jerjerrod is portrayed as Vader's equal and/or adversary, in the same way that Tarkin was. The Emperor and Jerjerrod conspire together to keep Vader in line, because they doubt Vader made any progress in turning Luke to the Dark Side. At one point, the Emperor even force-chokes Vader when Vader objects to the idea of the Emperor training Luke. The script also makes it clear that Vader is somewhat sympathetic to Luke, and laments the fact that the Emperor wants to turn him to the Dark Side.

However, ultimately I think the final script is better, even though it's a bit simpler and more romantic. Vader's unwavoring faith in the Dark Side makes it all the more compelling when he suddenly turns against the Emperor in a moment of compassion.

Stofsk wrote:The biggest plot hole? I always wondered how the Millenium Falcon crossed interstellar distances with no hyperdrive and arrive at Bespin without relativity affecting things. Thank god the EU invented 'backup hyperdrives' to address this issue, since nothing else does.

When Han points out that Bespin was "pretty far but I think we can make it", he didn't say how. If the backup hyperdrive (which I like to think of as being like one of those puny emergency spare tires) sounds lame, then maybe Han & Chewie were able to jury-rig the damaged hyperdrive just enough to jump to Bespin.

The_Saint wrote:I always had issues with where the rest of the 7,293 TIE Fighters were during the attack on Yavin. (I can think of a dozen reasons why we never see them, same as soon as we get to the Death Star most of the X & Y Wings disappear but it always bugged me a bit)

I've got an issue with a figure like 7293 fighters on hand in the Death Star. Where does that come from (the EU, which alone should make it suspect)?

Darth Yan wrote:Here is the article in question.

It's by nick mamatas and his arguements are as follows.

You can read his bullshit here.

1.)“Why didn’t Obi-Wan Kenobi tell Luke that Darth Vader was Luke’s father? Clearly, Vader could have told Luke at any time.” “If Vader wanted to blow Luke’s mind, he could have had the words ‘Luke, I am your father, xoxo, DV’ burnt into the side of some nearby mountains with the laser cannons of his Star Destroyer at any time.”

This person is either an imbecile, a troll or both. Vader never has a chance to tell Luke in ANH, and is looking for Luke himself in the first part of TESB. When the Emperor tells Vader about Luke, VADER ALREADY KNOWS! Yet he pretends he doesn't, and balks when the Emperor tells him to kill Luke. Vader then says he wants Luke alive so he can recruit him to join the Dark Side. Later in the movie, Vader lets the cat out of the bag: He wants Luke to join him and kill the Emperor. In other words, Vader was up to something and was hiding his real motives from the Emperor. As it turned out, the Emperor wasn't fooled one bit and played along, hoping he could get Luke to kill Vader and take his place.

Nick Mamatas is a moron.

2.) He also says that because Palpy and Vader are so powerful in the force and politically, then they should be able to find luke instantly in the force while still a baby. “Didn’t Luke sense Vader’s power and Han Solo’s plight from across interstellar space after a few days of hanging out with Yoda and getting Force training in Epidose V?” “Or how about when Vader confronts Leia? No mention of paternity or the Force, which is supposed to be strong in her as well.”

Any reasonably intelligent 9-year-old will infer from watching the movies that in order to sense The Force, a person/place/thing must either be ridiculously strong with it, or actively using it. Vader noticed Luke's strength in the Force only when Luke was talking to Obi-Wan's ghost (in ANH and TESB) or was actively using it (ANH and ROTJ).

Vader doesn't know that he has a daughter until a few minutes before he dies. Leia has no instruction in The Force and knows nothing about her real parents, so how exactly is Vader going to know? Is he going to do a midichlorian test on every Rebel he crosses paths with?

3.) "In Episode IV, [Obi-Wan] still fails to recognize the droids, and has no reason to simply be pretending not to recognize them.”

Twenty years ago, I owned a maroon Subaru station wagon. I haven't thought about Subarus of any kind, let alone maroon station wagons since. If someone were to give me a ride in one I might notice, but I can only remember saying or writing anything about the car twice in two decades (including this post). The idea I would talk about it any more -even when matters of life, death and the fate of the galaxy aren't at stake- is cretinous.

4.) “Leia, through Episodes IV-VI, is ignorant of her heritage … Did nobody in the Empire ask the Organas from where they adopted this girl?”

Why would they? Vader doesn't know he has any long lost kids and both he and the Emperor assume Padme and her fetus died together.

5.) “Biochemical technology is such that in Episode I Qui-Gon can analyze a blood sample and send it over Magic Radio Waves to Obi-Wan on the Queen’s ship, where Obi-Wan can check the blood for midichlorians. Leia is certainly awash in those sparkly little Force germs, germs that apparently can be e-mailed to people.”

Again, no one is looking for Darth Vader's daughter since not even Vader himself knows he has one.

6.) “R2-D2’s butt-rocket came in handy in Episodes II and III and could have also come in handy any number of times in Episodes IV through VI.”

Like when? Maybe that's how he got out of the mouth of that giant worm creature on Dagobah with such velocity.

7.) “[W]hy no mention of midichlorians, no glimpses of all the goofy robots and vehicles exclusive to Episodes I-III, no discussion of how the Empire came to be?”

Midichlorians are only useful if you're a Jedi Knight and trying to find new recruits. The Emperor went to the trouble of killing the Jedi Knights, so he more than likely would get somewhat impatient with anyone checking for midichlorians.

When you watched say, Raiders of the Lost Ark, weren't you annoyed that there was no mention of the Versailles Treaty, the Beer Hall Putsch, the 1933 election or anything else having to do with Hitler's rise to power? When you watched All The President's Men, was it a plot hole when the movie never mentioned Nixon's "Checkers" speech? Or the 1968 October Surprise?

8.) “They also went from tri-wings in Episode II to X-wings in Episode IV.

Huh?

9.)“Why did Obi-Wan take Luke to Tatooine and send him to live with the Skywalkers?”

Why not? No one is looking for Anakin Skywalker's kids. Owen and Beru are the closest thing to family that Luke has at this point.

10.) He also says that motti is an athiest, before citing several brin arguements before finally bitching about how star wars supposedly ruined american cinema.

Proof once again that "plot hole" is a euphemism for "things I'm too stupid to understand". Since the troll who wrote this is one of David Brin's little cockgoblins, I would recommend Darth Wong's essay on the main page, as well as some of the threads about this dishonest little troll in these forums.

the sad thing? Brin's actually more rational (he actually retracted on arguement when presented with evidence, and is somewhat more open). Heck he admitted to liking iv and v.

Mamatas is a shame not just to writers, but to all port jeffersonites (my father grew up in port jefferson around the same time mamatas did).

Honestly, it's okay to not like the films, just don't be a dick about it. mamatas was a dick about it. Mamatas also insulted all EU fans by saying they have no self respect (and no, you don't have to like it. That's fine. What's not fine is implying that everyone who does is a stupid moron.)

Sorry for the late reply. As I explained elsewhere, I'm currently in the PRC and setting up my web-connection here was more difficult than I expected.

On topic.

Wyrm wrote:I say again, the movie is a dramatization/documentary, not a mission spec. You can't expect them to stuff every relevant piece of information into it. That's boring.

I don't see how spending one line on an arranged signal would dramatically hamper pace. Fleet jumps in. Ackbar/Calrissian mention having the go-signal from Han and order the attack. Done.

Why does the presence of jamming, which may be deployed anytime after the shuttle cleared the shield, have anything to do with the "Go/No Go" signal? Remember, the broad shape of the plan is known to the Empire.

Huh? The presence of sensor-jamming is what clues Kalrissian in to it being a trap.

Yet Lando was reasonably sure that Han got through the shield and was not blown up/captured by the Empire before setting foot on Endor. That supports my hypothesis, not yours. Furthermore, the purpose of the jamming was to confuse the Rebel fleet long enough for the Imperial fleet to move in. Once the Rebel fleet was trapped, it had served its purpose.

The jamming was what immediately tipped the Rebels off. So if that was the plan of the empire it failed.
Have you forgotten that they were scanning for shield activity? Here are the lines from that scene:

95 INT MILLENNIUM FALCON - COCKPIT 95

Lando looks worriedly at his alien copilot, Nien Nunb, who points
to the control panel and talks to Lando.

LANDO
We've got to be able to get some kind of a
reading on that shield, up or down. Well, how
could they be jamming us if they don't know
if we're coming.

Lando shoots a concerned look out at the approaching Death Star
as the implications of what he's just said sink in. He hits a
switch on his comlink.

LANDO
Break off the attack! The shield is still up.

You're a moron. If the "go" signal was sent, it was obviously sent before the Rebel band even began their offensive on the shield generator — Palpy's precognition can easily have shown him that the fleet and the band were moving in at much the same time, to shorten the time between the shield falling and the fleet arriving as much as possible. Because remember the Imperial fleet can move in and protect the incompleted Death Star and make the Rebel's mission much harder if the time between the shields falling and the fleet arriving is sufficiently long. A surprise attack works because things happen too fast for you to react to the changing situation, so a tight sequence of events is expected.

The Rebels thought they had only to deal with the Executor and a few Star Destroyers at most. They thought the rest of the fleet was off on a wild-goose chase spread throughout the galaxy.

MON MOTHMA
The data brought to us by the Bothan spies
pinpoints the exact location of the Emperor's
new battle station. We also know that the
weapon systems of this Death Star are not yet
operational. With the Imperial Fleet spread
throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to
engage us, it is relatively unprotected. But
most important of all, we've learned that the
Emperor himself is personally overseeing the
final stages of the construction of this
Death Star.

Excuse me, but I think, what, five minutes to blow the installation sky-high would make that much of a difference when one goes from such intel.

That's why working overtime to get the Death Star's own shields going instead of the main weapon would have been the nastier surprise and made whatever happens on the Sanctuary Moon irrelevant.

And now your an expert on Star Wars technology now, huh? That's nice to know. It may not have been possible to have a self-shielded Death Star, because of time constraints, or even because the skin of the DS had not yet been completed.[/quote]Don't tell me completing a planet busting superlaser is somehow less difficult than just putting enough shield around the station to ward off fighters. Neither of us are SW tech experts BTW. I see however no reason to say that shielding at least the vulnerable (and quite obvious) entry points to the DS2's core would be more of a hassle than working the construction crews overtime to complete the primary weapon.

Um, where? Because I don't remember that or anything to that effect from the movie.

That's their plan according to what happens on-screen.[/quote]Nothing even remotely like that was said. What we got was a bare-bones plan, as appropriate for a mission briefing. They're called "briefings" because, well... they're brief and omit a lot of important detail.[/quote]Like the one most crucial aspect, whose existence would turn a retarded bullrush into a trap into a way more sensible operation? Your continued Appeals to Ignorance don't do your argument much good.

[quotePut down Occam's Razor, sport. You obviously don't know how to use it and will only hurt yourself. Occam's Razor only works on two theories that work equally well in explaining the phenomenon in question. By definition, your explanation of how things played out in Jedi does not work as well as my explanation, as yours points to holes in the plot that my explaination explicity fills.[/quote]My explanation (Stupid plan) flows directly from what's shown in the movie. Your explanation (signal was incorporated) flows purely from after the fact rationalizations and from presupposing that the rebel plan couldn't possibly have been half-baked. So add Begging the Question to your repertoire of logical abuses. As for the rest...well, that's just you empathically repeating your assertions.

Why's that itching you so much? Plenty of summer action blockbusters involve the heroes or the villains behaving in stupid ways. Why should SW be exempt?

they didn't know the empire was waiting for them. if a signal was released the empire could call for backup. and how do you know there weren't any ships that were close enough to be recalled should an attack come? Therefore Wyrm does have a point.

Darth Yan wrote:they didn't know the empire was waiting for them. if a signal was released the empire could call for backup. and how do you know there weren't any ships that were close enough to be recalled should an attack come? Therefore Wyrm does have a point.

Excuse me? Wyrm is the one arguing that the Rebel plan incorporated an in-movie unreferenced go-signal for the rebel assault task force, not me.

A better explanation is that Han's team would send a signal only if the mission was aborted.

Elfdart wrote:A better explanation is that Han's team would send a signal only if the mission was aborted.

Thing is, if they have to abort their mission they're most probably already compromised and the Empire will most likely jam their transmissions like crazy.

Perhaps the Empire just didn't want to take the risk of them getting a signal off by chance. Besides, there are still hyperspace message pods, like the one from the Truce at Bakura, I think.

Srelex wrote:Perhaps the Empire just didn't want to take the risk of them getting a signal off by chance. Besides, there are still hyperspace message pods, like the one from the Truce at Bakura, I think.

Thing is, what choice did the Rebels really have? Either make an attempt at the Death Star in the off-chance it might work out despite being a trap (and exploiting that Palps was really dumb enough to actually put himself so close to danger) or miss the one chance they have to get at that thing and the Emperor while they're relatively vulnerable and leave the Empire with the ultimate weapon of terror. Simply building that thing was enough for the Empire to start the endgame of the Civil War.

Metahive wrote:I don't see how spending one line on an arranged signal would dramatically hamper pace. Fleet jumps in. Ackbar/Calrissian mention having the go-signal from Han and order the attack. Done.

You're imagining the editor has the same criteria for what he considers important parts of the plot that you do. Yes, it's an important part of the rebel plans, but it is not an important part of our enjoyment — even if it was orginally part of the script. Again, just because it's not in the movie does not mean it wasn't done. Han is never seen (nor planned to be seen) going to the bathroom, either. Does that imply he doesn't have an asshole?

Metahive wrote:

Why does the presence of jamming, which may be deployed anytime after the shuttle cleared the shield, have anything to do with the "Go/No Go" signal? Remember, the broad shape of the plan is known to the Empire.

Huh? The presence of sensor-jamming is what clues Kalrissian in to it being a trap.

Which we all agree was the case, so what's the point of this?

Metahive wrote:The jamming was what immediately tipped the Rebels off.

Liar. The fleet jumped in at several planetary diameters and its significance wasn't realized until they were in spitting distance of the Death Star. You're going to be scanning the Death Star in any event, because in a tight sequence of events like in a surprise attack, certain steps are bound to happen out of order — like the fleet arriving before the rebel band can take out the shield generator.

Notice that this is what happened.

Metahive wrote:So if that was the plan of the empire it failed.

So now you're an expert on Imperial tactics now, huh? The jamming delayed realization that the shield was up long enough for them to be confined to close quarters with the Death Star.

Metahive wrote:Have you forgotten that they were scanning for shield activity?

No. Have you forgotten "trust, but verify"? As I pointed out above, in a tight sequence of events like a surprise attack, certain events can come out of order. You put checks like this in to make sure that you don't bull right ahead into the attack when the rebel band hasn't quite got to taking down the shield.

Metahive wrote:The Rebels thought they had only to deal with the Executor and a few Star Destroyers at most. They thought the rest of the fleet was off on a wild-goose chase spread throughout the galaxy.

MON MOTHMA
The data brought to us by the Bothan spies
pinpoints the exact location of the Emperor's
new battle station. We also know that the
weapon systems of this Death Star are not yet
operational. With the Imperial Fleet spread
throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to
engage us, it is relatively unprotected. But
most important of all, we've learned that the
Emperor himself is personally overseeing the
final stages of the construction of this
Death Star.

Excuse me, but I think, what, five minutes to blow the installation sky-high would make that much of a difference when one goes from such intel.

You're a moron still. You only saw the last five minutes of their trek, which could easily have taken hours. The rebel band was trooping through a forest moon of unknown topographby and wildlife. Finding your way through a potential morass is going to put large uncertainties in your mission time. Once they knew they could execute their plan in a set time (if everything went well), then they would send the signal.

And again, the briefing is just that... a brief, abridged description of the mission.

Metahive wrote:Don't tell me completing a planet busting superlaser is somehow less difficult than just putting enough shield around the station to ward off fighters.

No. That's just where their priorities were, because they can't do everything at once. Don't you remember the beginning of the film, where Vader arrives to put the Death Star construction "back on schedule"? This isn't some supposition — it's in the film as evidence!

Metahive wrote:Neither of us are SW tech experts BTW. I see however no reason to say that shielding at least the vulnerable (and quite obvious) entry points to the DS2's core would be more of a hassle than working the construction crews overtime to complete the primary weapon.

Again, don't you remember that Palpy's plan was to use the Death Star's apparent vulnerability as bait to lure in the Rebel fleet?

Metahive wrote:Like the one most crucial aspect, whose existence would turn a retarded bullrush into a trap into a way more sensible operation? Your continued Appeals to Ignorance don't do your argument much good.

Don't you realize that this entire argument of yours is exactly that, an Appeal to Ignorance? You're saying "I can't imagine how such an important part of the plan can be left out of the briefing, so it must not exist!"

Metahive wrote:My explanation (Stupid plan) flows directly from what's shown in the movie.

Your "stupid plan" explanation fails by hypothesis, because you admit that its existence is a plot hole, not merely an oversight. Sure, yours only takes into account what happens in the movie, but that's exactly what its problem is. It ignores obviously relevant background data, like the Rebellion is a halfway competent military organization — it was able to fend off a much better equipped and manned Imperial military for years. What we know about halfway competent military organizations is that they conduct missions in exactly this way. You're still using Occam's Razor in the wrong way.

Metahive wrote:Your explanation (signal was incorporated) flows purely from after the fact rationalizations and from presupposing that the rebel plan couldn't possibly have been half-baked.

As most theories are.

And mine works.

Metahive wrote:So add Begging the Question to your repertoire of logical abuses.

Another fallacy you don't know how to use. To assume a priori that what you see is logically consistent with itself is not a very stringent requirement; to assume a priori that two advanced militaries facing each other would know how to conduct missions is not a stringent requirement; to assume a priori that a precog will foul up an otherwise satisfactory plan is not a stringent requirement.

Metahive wrote:As for the rest...well, that's just you empathically repeating your assertions.

Mere posturing, boy.

Metahive wrote:Why's that itching you so much? Plenty of summer action blockbusters involve the heroes or the villains behaving in stupid ways. Why should SW be exempt?

Because we're discussing SW in this thread, not any other summer action blockbuster. Do try to keep up.