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Lord Revan wrote:well at least it's not yet gone to the "need ICC25 heroic gear for lvl 80 normals" what it was during the late Wrath (on my realm at least).

Good god, that sucked. When I started Wrath, my Death Knight was prime Heroic DPS with a few purples and some Icecrown blues, swinging a Titansteel Destroyer. 1400 DPS? You're in. By the end, if you weren't in ICC25 gear and tagging the Kingslayer title, you couldn't get shit. It was pathetic, and it's carried on into Cataclysm.

I'm glad I left WoW behind. It stopped being fun (or even being about fun) a long time ago.

Melchior wrote:You had gearscore installed and criticize me for checking people up in the armory?

Demanding ICC gear for fucking Nax when you're running around in relentless PVP gear and 213s? Fuck yea I'd criticize you. Demanding ICC gear for Nax, period? And no, I don't have gearscore installed, I'm capable of typing in a URL rather than cluttering up my UI.

If I have multiple people whispering me for spot, choosing the most qualified players seems the most correct thing to do. Having the achi is a guarantee of at least a modicum of skill (managing to not wipe a raid during a kill, so you know that he won't taunt the boss or something and will at worst die in the fire in a corner while being carried).

Oh wow. "Qualified." PUGs..... qualified. You win, I literally have no counter for this argument. Except for "don't be a dick to the tank you whispered to run your little pre-employment application."

Being (hilariously) unreasonable about it would be asking for unrelated proofs of skill ("LFM Baradin Hold, link your Firefighter" and then checking the date), but even this would frankly make me smile, not rage and be rude to people (maybe because I don't feel insecure about my skills).

Because the two raids I mentioned in my posts are all about skill and not over-gearing for the fight or not being a complete retard? I swear, some people think the ability to hit buttons and avoid blue flames deserves a fucking medal or something. Like I said in the original post: This wasn't fucking 7/12 ICC.

But your attitude is pretty much par for the course for the average wow player: "Guy is tired of idiots bothering him, he must suck. I have to hit all of 3 buttons to pull 12k. This game is hard."

Anyway, if you don't have the 20 minutes to farm a stack of elementium. Don't worry, Blizzard has your back. For the mere cost of running HoO heroic 4 times, you can still be short 40 JP of buying one stack of elementium from a vendor. That shit right there is comedy gold.

Just a note on gear vs. skill etc.:

I ran my first Cataclysm-level dungeon yesterday, Blackrock Caverns. Since i had pretty bad gear (i never got any WotlK-heroic gear or anything like that), so i thought that i should at least check the basic tactics for the bosses.
Well, we got the first boss without me explaining any tactics, because his only tricks are an obvious chaining-spell that has to be damaged to be destroyed and an area-effect with a long warning time.
Now, the second boss: Spoiler I knew that it would not be that easy, so i just said "okay, we need some easy tactics here, please let me explain". Well, the Hunter in our group "countered" with "You don't need tactics for 5-man non-heros, let's just attack". Okay, i was a bit of an asshole then and just went with that - and predictably we wiped. I actually managed to pull of a countdown "wipe in 10. 9. 8....3. 2. 1. WIPE", which was quite funny IMO.
Okay, so we are running back into the dungeon. The Hunter is bitching about how it was all the fault of too little damage, despite the Hunter only dealing about 8% more damage than the two other DDs - and the boss was at about 40% when we wiped anyway.
Well, i explained the tactics afterwards, and voila - we killed the boss without any troubles. The Hunter left about 5 minutes later



I must say that i really like Cata-level dungeons. They are not that gear-dependent (at least at entry-levels), but they actually require some thinking and can provide nice challenges, at least to a healer. WotlK-dungeons were really boring compared to that.

Please, the gear vs skill argument has already been settled, just look at any top 50 guild (of which I am a member) and look at when most were raiding.
I personally started raiding, the Friday after the servers went live in the EU, in basically what amounted to the blues and greens I got out of Twilight Highlands, and whatever dungeon blues i'd managed to grind out in a day or two - other players in the top world guilds were doing the same, going into raids very undergeared, but skill carrying them through.

TheFeniX wrote:Demanding ICC gear for fucking Nax when you're running around in relentless PVP gear and 213s? Fuck yea I'd criticize you. Demanding ICC gear for Nax, period? And no, I don't have gearscore installed, I'm capable of typing in a URL rather than cluttering up my UI.

Why are you confusing me with random people on your server? I would never do something like that, it's absurd.

TheFeniX wrote:Because the two raids I mentioned in my posts are all about skill and not over-gearing for the fight or not being a complete retard? I swear, some people think the ability to hit buttons and avoid blue flames deserves a fucking medal or something. Like I said in the original post: This wasn't fucking 7/12 ICC.

As the other, better, player said before me, you can do BH in leveling gear and reputation blues; I know that because I did it and I'm not that exceptional.
EDIT: To be honest we only did failbosses in the first week besides BH (omnitron, halfus, magmaw, maybe conclave but I don't remember), nothing competitive, but still.

TheFeniX wrote:But your attitude is pretty much par for the course for the average wow player: "Guy is tired of idiots bothering him, he must suck. I have to hit all of 3 buttons to pull 12k. This game is hard."

I play a warlock and get decent world rankings weekly on WoL, especially considering my currently somewhat subpar gear. I find funny that you talk about "average wow players thinking that the game is hard" while touting 7/12 ICC as a relevant achievement (hint: nothing in ICC normal modes was really hard except LK while undergeared, even with no buff to carry you).

Melchior wrote:As the other, better, player said before me, you can do BH in leveling gear and reputation blues; I know that because I did it and I'm not that exceptional.

I could probably do it in 333s because I know my cooldowns, but that's because it's on the DPS to average around 10k to beat the enrage, while not getting themselves killed at 66% and 33%.

Are you in charge of the raids? Have you run into an issue with your top DPS who can pull 17k when his pet isn't attacking an immune add and he's busy running into a wall during a boss fight because he "smoked some fucked up shit?" (guy called me a mediocre tank afterward. I almost passed out laughing). Do you rely on a DK to interrupt Shock Blasts, only to die because they routinely fail in that goal? Do you constantly have to remind people to switch adds during the boss fights when you should be more worried about managing your cooldowns so you don't die?

Lord Walden Heroic is a great fight in this regard. It really gives me insight on how little players keep track of what's going on during a fight. Unless the patch is already implemented, it's possible to take next to no damage during this fight. A tank can self-heal through it with little difficulty. But damned if the 3-4 times I've run it my entire team hasn't died and run back in (sometimes more than once) while I just continued spamming RED LIGHT/GREEN LIGHT.

Like I said: DPS is fucking easy mode which is why I've taken a break for the past three days just rolling people in BGs with my rogue.

EDIT: To be honest we only did failbosses in the first week besides BH (omnitron, halfus, magmaw, maybe conclave but I don't remember), nothing competitive, but still.

Being part of an established raiding guild has huge bonuses in the coordination department. News at 11.

I find funny that you talk about "average wow players thinking that the game is hard" while touting 7/12 ICC as a relevant achievement (hint: nothing in ICC normal modes was really hard except LK while undergeared, even with no buff to carry you).

I touted what? Where exactly? There's a reason some people could 5 man (or less) Nax even before cata. It isn't that ICC is terribly hard, it's that Nax couldn't even be called easy. It's "Don't be a dumbass and you'll roll through the whole thing in no time."

You can carry anyone to 6/12 with decent tanks and healers. Putricide is where that ends as you will not make it past (or usually even to) phase 3 if the DPS doesn't have their shit together and pull 5k (without the instance buff). Putricide isn't even that hard, but asking for a GS or checking someone's armory is usually a pretty good indication of if they can pull their weight. It also requires a semblance of DPS coordination, unlike the previous bosses which are almost all on the tanks. I wouldn't pug it (even with KSs) to save my life.

And saying "ICC isn't hard" when you claim to be in a top 50 raiding guild doesn't impress me. If I had 9 other guys/girls I could count on the have their shit together at all times, I'd be in the same boat.

TheFeniX wrote: Like I said: DPS is fucking easy mode which is why I've taken a break for the past three days just rolling people in BGs with my rogue.

I occasionally "lead" raids, but only with guildmates; this mostly means that I'm required to do a few calls like "switch dps", "aura mastery" or "bloodlust" (the tanks call for tank specific cooldowns if they need them, that's normal); I would probably try to avoid having to lead people that don't know what they're doing. Being a raid leader isn't really my calling.
DPS is "easy mode" only in trivial content. Requirements in current bosses are variable, Cho'gall is mostly on the dps, tanks just have to swap and move the add to the correct position, while Chimaeron or Nefarian are harder for them and healers and the dps just have to output decent numbers.
Minischoles is in a top 50 guild, not me; I'm in a decent one, but we're just starting hardmodes, nothing competitive on a global scale.

Melchior wrote:DPS is "easy mode" only in trivial content.

Let's be honest here: that's 99% of WoW content. And you can't press 4 buttons for 99% of a game, then claim your class is that hard because Blizzard finally decided to make you work a bit for that 14k DPS. That 14k DPS which magically drops down to 10k when you're forced to do something besides press those 4 buttons.

Not to say tanking is all that hard really. It's a cake-walk compared to commanding a game of Natural Selection and just as frustrating when people don't listen to orders. But playing my DK or rogue, if you lay your rotation out: just blast away and keep an eye of your feet. The only thing I lose by missing a CD or fucking up my rotation is some damage. Tanks who miss taunts or mitigation cooldowns..... they usually lose the whole raid/party. Same goes for the healer.

Minischoles is in a top 50 guild, not me; I'm in a decent one, but we're just starting hardmodes, nothing competitive on a global scale.

My bad. I got off on a rant there and didn't check my quotes.

Figured I'd get off the raid bitch-fest I've been on as there's a bit of guild drama coloring my perceptions. "When we raiding?" is the general topic of the 3 or so whispers I get upon logging in with my tank daily.

Anyway, part of today's patch notes:

Dungeons & Raids
Level-85 dungeon bosses in Lost City of the Tol'Vir, Grim Batol, and Halls of Origination now drop 30 Justice Points each when killed.
The daily Random Dungeon reward on normal difficulty has been increased to 140 Justice Points, up from 70.
Players no longer need to discover Cataclysm dungeon entrances in order to access them via the Dungeon Finder.

This should alleviate some pressure on people trying to get their gear together. It also means I wouldn't mind tanking a few normals for the rep and now JP. It would be nice to get the extra 200 I need so I can spend 3500 on an heirloom bow for my rogue (wish they had an heirloom throwing weapon... should check Dal again before purchasing). Heroics really aren't that bad, but normals are just tank and spanks for free JP and rep now.

I think the daily random will give 140 valor points, not justice. It gives 70 now.

Says the daily random dungeon, Chewie. Doesn't mention Heroics.

Melchior wrote:Minischoles is in a top 50 guild, not me; I'm in a decent one, but we're just starting hardmodes, nothing competitive on a global scale.

Yeah... that probably puts you in the top 2%-5% of all guilds. I'm betting most guilds haven't even got through any normal mode raids yet, let alone heroics. My guild is just getting our 10 man group geared from heroic dungeons and we haven't cleared any raid bosses yet.

Orc wrote:Yeah... that probably puts you in the top 2%-5% of all guilds. I'm betting most guilds haven't even got through any normal mode raids yet, let alone heroics. My guild is just getting our 10 man group geared from heroic dungeons and we haven't cleared any raid bosses yet.

We're giving BoT a go Saturday (BH if we own TB). I expect us to not beat the enrage on either the pit lord or Halfus. We have the tanks and great heals. The DPS has serious issues though. It boggles my mind that I'm running nothing but crafted 339s and a few 352s on my DK (pvp gear) and I can pull 7k single-target in heroics (which is pretty low for HC). My rotation has not been updated, nor have I spent the time to respec. Yet guys sporting mostly 346 PvE gear are struggling to stay ahead of me. Many of these guys don't have anything enchanted and some don't even have their gear gemmed. Yet they wonder why they keep getting vote-kicked out of heroics.

We'll wipe 3 times and my buddy and I will go back to rolling people in BGs with our rogues. What can I say? I'm an optimist.

TheFeniX wrote:We're giving BoT a go Saturday (BH if we own TB). I expect us to not beat the enrage on either the pit lord or Halfus.

If your dps sucks go do Omnitron instead of Halfus, the enrage timer is incredibly lenient; Halfus with a bad drake setup isn't that faceroll if your raid isn't geared (got one of the worst in the first week, we had to organize a free action potion / interrupt rotation to stop the novas, wasn't pretty).