StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Academia Nut wrote: You could always say that your nation was in a part of space that never had gates, you destroyed them, you figured out a way to turn them off, etc. and simply say that you don't use them and its impossible for anyone else to use them, but that will allow other people to use them if they want to.

... And now, I can't 'stargate blockade' a system I am blockading conventionally.

Christ, even a fairly small stargate would allow the passage of troops. Invasions would have you facing forces from across the empire you are attacking, not just the forces on the planet, thereby reducing the effectiveness of space superiority (which I think should be a major part of warfare in this game. Why are we here, if not to pit fleet against fleet? )

Thirdfain wrote:More to the point, not everyone in the game is familiar with Stargate and their quirks and operations. I sure am not. Why should we all have to contend with them?

You shouldn't have to. My factional declaration was the only one to mention anything close to a galactic stargate network, and resolved the issues that such a network would have brought up rather nicely by saying that the gate network ran out of power and thus became unusable.

The only functioning gate networks anybody should have are extremely localized (and incompatible, if more than one power has built their own gates) networks that were recently established, not trans-galactic gates that let people deposit ambassadors and biological weapons straight to the capitals of other empires.

Matt Huang wrote:

Thirdfain wrote:More to the point, not everyone in the game is familiar with Stargate and their quirks and operations. I sure am not. Why should we all have to contend with them?

You shouldn't have to. My factional declaration was the only one to mention anything close to a galactic stargate network, and resolved the issues that such a network would have brought up rather nicely by saying that the gate network ran out of power and thus became unusable.

The only functioning gate networks anybody should have are extremely localized (and incompatible, if more than one power has built their own gates) networks that were recently established, not trans-galactic gates that let people deposit ambassadors and biological weapons straight to the capitals of other empires.

It does not need be in any declaration, as the game hasn't yet started. We don't even have a definite history of the past.
And given that there once was a "greater" age, a galactic transportation network isn't out of the question.

Edit: In Nitram's original introduction, it says: "When the barrier of Light was finally breached, it ushered in a new Age as each star was interconnected." That could easily mean a network of gatelike artefacts.

Am I the only power with a history that stretches back to the Age of Silver? Knowing Khar being Khar, the Khar Empire of Old if it was anything like the new Khar Imperium is probably at fault for the Final War at the end of the Silver Age...

But then again, that's probably the one achievement (galactic civilization's collapse) that the Khar probably won't want to claim as their own innovation...

MRDOD wrote:Am I the only power with a history that stretches back to the Age of Silver? Knowing Khar being Khar, the Khar Empire of Old if it was anything like the new Khar Imperium is probably at fault for the Final War at the end of the Silver Age...

But then again, that's probably the one achievement (galactic civilization's collapse) that the Khar probably won't want to claim as their own innovation...

My space elves certainly are old, even to that age of silver, in a form at least. But they don't really know how they came to end on their Home World, for it isn't the planet to produce sentient life...

MRDOD wrote:Am I the only power with a history that stretches back to the Age of Silver? Knowing Khar being Khar, the Khar Empire of Old if it was anything like the new Khar Imperium is probably at fault for the Final War at the end of the Silver Age...

But then again, that's probably the one achievement (global galactic collapse) that the Khar probably won't want to claim as their own innovation...

Well my people have a history in the age of silver. They were put in charge of the Grate Library a gigantic research and information center for a human empire which I am yet to name in the middle of the silver age. The Human empire then fell at the start of the age of steel in a war with a magic using empire (possibly a political off shoot that supported the use of magic I am yet to decide) and the Quelectin were forced to flee the grate library as the enemy fleet were closing in on it. They then spent the reminder of the age of steel living on a planet and building an info structure. So yes I have a history that goes back to silver.

When you say "Final War at the end of the Silver Age" do you mean the war that started the age of steel?

Glimmervoid wrote: When you say "Final War at the end of the Silver Age" do you mean the war that started the age of steel?

Yes. In Khar Mythology, the entire Silver Age was ended by the beginning of the Final War, which was 512 years of apocalyptic conflict. Which is likely just hyperbole of what actually happened. Note that 512 is one of the numbers Khar use for "___", like "It must be 1000 degrees out there" or "There's like a million of them!"

The Khar Empire itself ended some time near the end of the Age of Steel when some sort of device destroyed the Khar method of FTL for 1100 years.

Khar history actually stretches back to the Age of Stone, because they have their evolutionary and pre-space history sketched out... sort of, because it mixes with their legends.

MRDOD wrote:Am I the only power with a history that stretches back to the Age of Silver? Knowing Khar being Khar, the Khar Empire of Old if it was anything like the new Khar Imperium is probably at fault for the Final War at the end of the Silver Age...

But then again, that's probably the one achievement (galactic civilization's collapse) that the Khar probably won't want to claim as their own innovation...

Lets see, that was when Avalonians went out and rebuilt their civilization of the Ancestors the first time around, so yeah, your not the only one with a history that stretches to before the Age of Silver.

The Silver Age is myth, legend, and at best archaeology for the people of Bas-Lag.

Thirdfain wrote:The Silver Age is myth, legend, and at best archaeology for the people of Bas-Lag.

That's because you all went and bombed eachother back to the stone age .

Matt Huang wrote: That's because you all went and bombed eachother back to the stone age .

There was ony ever one usage of the Colourbomb on a city, and that was during the Pirate Wars over 400 years ago. Did I mention that until about a century ago and the cold war between the Witchocracy of Tesh and Crobuzon, technology had been pretty much stagnant in New Crobuzon for literally hundreds of years?

I've always assumed that the cultures on Bas-Lag formed after the conflagrations which ended the Silver Age and the Ghosthead Empire, and that the humans on Bas-Lag are not, in fact, the descendents of The Ghosthead.

It's more like they moved in on territory owned by people who had already bombed themselves back into the stone age.

Third's actually got a point. If Stargate useage become common then those that don't adopt them will be at a significant disadvantage, it does effectively force people to adopt them, regardless of wether or not they're declared optional.

I'm not saying no don't use them, but we've got to decide if the effect they're going to have on gameplay is going to be worth it. Also, those of us that have built up pre-oobs based on exploration the return of travel by ship are going to need to do some rewrites.

One way we could potentially make it work is by having everyone declare a maximum of one gate planet, this still allows somewhat for people to cross into each other's territory, but does really render the excercise kind of pointless.

Spyder wrote:Third's actually got a point. If Stargate useage become common then those that don't adopt them will be at a significant disadvantage, it does effectively force people to adopt them, regardless of wether or not they're declared optional.

I'm not saying no don't use them, but we've got to decide if the effect they're going to have on gameplay is going to be worth it. Also, those of us that have built up pre-oobs based on exploration the return of travel by ship are going to need to do some rewrites.

One way we could potentially make it work is by having everyone declare a maximum of one gate planet, this still allows somewhat for people to cross into each other's territory, but does really render the excercise kind of pointless.

Stargates, I presume, wouldn't negate the advantages of space travel. Namely, Ortillery, Lack of a chokepoint, abiilty to reach non-gated areas for travel/expansion, and the like. Spaceflight/Exploration would still occur.

However, If I'm wrong in that, I'll be no party to lessening the power of space superiority.

Extremely tentative OOB coming soon...

Spyder wrote:Third's actually got a point. If Stargate useage become common then those that don't adopt them will be at a significant disadvantage, it does effectively force people to adopt them, regardless of wether or not they're declared optional.

I'm not saying no don't use them, but we've got to decide if the effect they're going to have on gameplay is going to be worth it. Also, those of us that have built up pre-oobs based on exploration the return of travel by ship are going to need to do some rewrites.

One way we could potentially make it work is by having everyone declare a maximum of one gate planet, this still allows somewhat for people to cross into each other's territory, but does really render the excercise kind of pointless.

Any military/trade atvantage a gate provides is instantly cancelled by putting a mass limit of only a few people every X period of time. Four people basically is a diplomatic party. You're not going to stage invasion through THAT. The most military use I can think of is to evacuate heads of state and other VIPs in case of imminent capture/death.

Spyder wrote:Third's actually got a point. If Stargate useage become common then those that don't adopt them will be at a significant disadvantage, it does effectively force people to adopt them, regardless of wether or not they're declared optional.

I'm not saying no don't use them, but we've got to decide if the effect they're going to have on gameplay is going to be worth it. Also, those of us that have built up pre-oobs based on exploration the return of travel by ship are going to need to do some rewrites.

One way we could potentially make it work is by having everyone declare a maximum of one gate planet, this still allows somewhat for people to cross into each other's territory, but does really render the excercise kind of pointless.

I think that gates should be handled as homemade networks with terminals that cost points (representing the cost to power and maintain said network) based on their transport capacity.

Otherwise, sending nasty payloads like biological weapons or antimatter would be possible, and more importantly, some of us would have to rewrite the background for our factions entirely.

Matt Huang wrote:

Spyder wrote:Third's actually got a point. If Stargate useage become common then those that don't adopt them will be at a significant disadvantage, it does effectively force people to adopt them, regardless of wether or not they're declared optional.

I'm not saying no don't use them, but we've got to decide if the effect they're going to have on gameplay is going to be worth it. Also, those of us that have built up pre-oobs based on exploration the return of travel by ship are going to need to do some rewrites.

One way we could potentially make it work is by having everyone declare a maximum of one gate planet, this still allows somewhat for people to cross into each other's territory, but does really render the excercise kind of pointless.

I think that gates should be handled as homemade networks with terminals that cost points (representing the cost to power and maintain said network) based on their transport capacity.

Otherwise, sending nasty payloads like biological weapons or antimatter would be possible, and more importantly, some of us would have to rewrite the background for our factions entirely.

"Entirely"? I don't think so...
And, as I pointed out, the original piece by Nitram already included the galactic "gate" network.

As for "nasty payloads": That's what an Iris is for, as well as sensible location of your gate. Only idiots would put it in a position where everyone would come and go unscanned. additionally, the mass limit would clearly reduce the amount of stuff you could get through. If it would be antimatter, you'd lose a small area of land, but nothing important or vital. And to remove the biological threat, we can simply assume a "bioscanner" like in Star Trek...

Dahak wrote:As for "nasty payloads": That's what an Iris is for, as well as sensible location of your gate. Only idiots would put it in a position where everyone would come and go unscanned. additionally, the mass limit would clearly reduce the amount of stuff you could get through. If it would be antimatter, you'd lose a small area of land, but nothing important or vital. And to remove the biological threat, we can simply assume a "bioscanner" like in Star Trek...

50kg of antimatter is enough to ruin alot of people's day for quite some distance. It is, after all, more than a gigaton of energy. (50kg being 1/6 of 300kg, which is 4 people at 75kg each, which is probably slightly less than average weight, but good enough for this back of the envelope calcuation)

It's not just antimatter-payloads for mass-destruction. You can use a small amount of antimatter to breach the Iris, then send through whatever payload you wish, be it biological weapons or more antimatter.

Matt Huang wrote:It's not just antimatter-payloads for mass-destruction. You can use a small amount of antimatter to breach the Iris, then send through whatever payload you wish, be it biological weapons or more antimatter.

Which will not work, if we go by "Stargate" iris, nothing, including antimatter, will have time to rematerialise, so it will not do anything to the iris.
And again, if you're stupid enough to let the gate stand where "bad stuff" coming through will cause mass havoc, you probably deserve it, too...

Dahak wrote:Which will not work, if we go by "Stargate" iris, nothing, including antimatter, will have time to rematerialise, so it will not do anything to the iris.

In episode 218, Sokar fires a particle beam through the Stargate and the particles rematerialize on the other side, heating up the iris. An antimatter particle beam would simply blow up the iris. This probably wouldn't work against the Atlantis energy-iris.

And again, if you're stupid enough to let the gate stand where "bad stuff" coming through will cause mass havoc, you probably deserve it, too...

Dump enough antimatter through the gate and there aren't too many safe places.

phongn wrote:

Dahak wrote:Which will not work, if we go by "Stargate" iris, nothing, including antimatter, will have time to rematerialise, so it will not do anything to the iris.

In episode 218, Sokar fires a particle beam through the Stargate and the particles rematerialize on the other side, heating up the iris. An antimatter particle beam would simply blow up the iris. This probably wouldn't work against the Atlantis energy-iris.

And again, if you're stupid enough to let the gate stand where "bad stuff" coming through will cause mass havoc, you probably deserve it, too...

Dump enough antimatter through the gate and there aren't too many safe places.

Which is why we can simply say that nothing will be able to affect this iris. We don't have to use THE stargate, just the rough concept of it. It's not like we cannot create rules that will prevent it...

"Enough" depends on the allowed max mass transit limit. And, say, putting it on a moon or in space behind the blind side of your moon will negate that...

Once again, why is this even vaguely necessary? Let's keep this game as a 4X space exploration game, as opposed to a huge episode of SG1.

It's amazing how much of a fuss the merest suggestion that there be a solid link of backstory linking all these groups causes.

*Shrugs* I'll stick to having my own network. What other people do is what other people do.

Thirdfain wrote:Once again, why is this even vaguely necessary? Let's keep this game as a 4X space exploration game, as opposed to a huge episode of SG1.

For one, it gives more feel to the backstory everyone seemed to like so much (except this "all stars were interconnected" part, which somehow people seem to think as death incarnate or something...).
And it also makes all this diplomatic "Oh, I just suddenly encountered you, let us exchange diplomats, whose transfer and arrival in ships has to be described in excruciating detail for pages over pages, even though nothing of true interest or value has been done" shit less frequent and long-winded?
And it also is different... From Nitram's initial post, I thought *this* STGOD would have another feel to it, would be different. Instead it seems to come down to the old STGOD, just warmed up...

*throws in 3.4-ish cents*

Frankly, I don't mind the idea of having some stargates lying around. Just, I dunno. leave them on the moon, or in a particle accellerator, and you've got no worries. If all else fails, just bring along a deployable one with your first diplomatic fleet.
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