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GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Earth has become this sort of demon killing machine, where live demons go in, and come out as bloody, very dead, giblets.

I absolutely DEMAND that this make it into the fic!

I'd think Abigor is smart enough to realize that they could have easily killed him from a distance when he encountered them at the Hellmouth, but instead closed and tried to intercept him because they wanted him alive, and knowing that, easily decide that he would have a good chance of keeping himself and his people alive by offering to cooperate with them.

XaLEv wrote:I'd think Abigor is smart enough to realize that they could have easily killed him from a distance when he encountered them at the Hellmouth, but instead closed and tried to intercept him because they wanted him alive, and knowing that, easily decide that he would have a good chance of keeping himself and his people alive by offering to cooperate with them.

He's seen, and undoubtedly heard of humans in their vehicles turning demons into tread grease for their iron chariots, and having apparent contests to see who could kill more demons. He was expecting to die horribly at the hands of human mages before he made it back to the (relative) safety of Hell. And they tried to use him as artillery practice earlier. The conclusion that the humans might've wanted to have a bit of sport in killing him is probably a more somewhat more logical conclusion to reach than "Humans are showin' me mercy and want me alive, after wiping out over 99% of my army with a distinct lack of either characteristic prior, so let's try surrendering next time!"

He's either going to have to get really lucky, or he's going to have to start pulling humans out of the swamp and questioning them critically in a bid to gain more insight into them.

People, Abigor has two Wikipedia Pages:

Page One

Eligos (also Abigor or Eligor), in demonology, is a Great Duke of Hell, ruling sixty legions of demons. He discovers hidden things and knows the future of wars and how soldiers should meet. He also attracts the favours of lords, knights and other important persons.

He is depicted in the form of a goodly knight carrying a lance, an ensign and a sceptre (a serpent to some authors, most notably Aleister Crowley).

Alternatively he is depicted as a ghostly spectre, sometimes riding a semi-skeletal (sometimes winged) horse, or the Steed of Abigor. This is a minion of Hell itself, and was a gift from Beelzebub. It was created from the remains of one of the horses of The Garden of Eden.

and

Page Two

Abigor is an Austrian black metal band formed in 1993 by Peter Kubik and Thomas Tannenberger.

Is this page getting a bit too slow in responses; should we lock this, and create a new page for "Armageddon (31 to )" I don't think a thread on SDN has ever hit this level of pages before...

MKSheppard wrote:Is this page getting a bit too slow in responses; should we lock this, and create a new page for "Armageddon (31 to )" I don't think a thread on SDN has ever hit this level of pages before...

That's not quite true....

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Asmodeus, Beelzebub, and DAGON? We're fuxored in the short term. Short of tactical nukes, there's no way we can hold the portal against those kinds of numbers. The positions would be overrun.

I doubt it, not with potentially 1,000 US-UK-Iranian AFVs with direct fire weapons defending it. In fact that number could be way higher if the Israelis, Jordanians and Syrians deploy major forces. Also remember, MLRS kills everything it lands on but the first army wouldn’t have been big enough to fully fill the elliptical shaped impact zones (120-200,000 m/2 per twelve rocket salvo!). Now that the demons are coming out into a small kill zone and in a literal huge mass, every bomblet is going to contribute to killing. What’s more it would take hours for all the demons to actually physically march out to be killed, more then enough time to rustle up B-52s.

I don’t think will Abigor defect, I’d stand by my original guess, he’ll try to usurp the throne once Satan is further weakened… if he can survive.

Stuart wrote: I agree on the barrel issue; barrel production is going to be the limiting factor in arms production and that's going to be the death of gatling-type weapons. Not only would an Infantry gatling be out but so would aircraft gatlings - I expect to see the relatively low-velocity, ultra-high rate of fire M61 style gatling replaced by a lower rate-of-fire but much higher velocity single barrel weapon. For example, one of the Russian 30mm guns may be a good choice or the Oerlikon 30mm gun - IIRC the Oerlikon aircraft 30mm is the KCA and its a thoroughly nasty beast. We might well see the Oerlikon 35mm KD series guns coming in - they are superb weapons and will blow CHUNKS off baldrick and angel alike.

I wouldn’t exactly call the M61 low velocity, its shells just don’t retain velocity well and the burster is tiny. A big problem exists with those higher end guns though, the barrel life on them tends to be not much bigger then one magazine fill worth of ammo. The Bk.27 for example is rated at something like 250 rounds, with a 150 round magazine.

The main Oerlikon aircraft guns are the KCA revolver cannon firing 30x173mm, and the KDA (also known as KDB/C/F depending on use) which is a conventional gas operated gun firing 35x228. They also have several 25-35mm AFV an anti aircraft guns, a few of which may be suited to aircraft use and which would have much higher barrel lifes. The KBB for example is a conventional gas operated gun firing 25x184 with duel belt feed and 800rpm rate of fire.

The high velocity version of the Aden revolver gun firing 30x113B would be well worth looking into. It fires the same cartridge used by the M230 cannon on the Apache but at about 1,200rpm, however velocity isn’t super high, about 800m/s, which should help barrel life a great deal vs. the 1000-1400m/s guns. Shell weight is nothing too big for a 30mm roun , but still about twice that of a 20mm round from an M61. I’d say adapt the Aden gun as a low end weapon, the Hawk 200 can already carry it in podded form and the T-45 swarm should be able to do the same. No reason to use anything else that I can see.

As a high end gun for attack planes the KDA looks awesome, the muzzle velocity is a bit high, but it fires at 600rpm so barrel burnup shouldn’t be THAT bad. It would also have the advantage of sharing the same cartridge as the Bushmaster III 35mm chaingun, which will likely be adapted for Bradley production. Its been tested on Bradley’s already, and swapping the bolt and barrel lets it convent into a 50mm weapon in the event even tougher targets show up. 35mm shell weight is three times that of the 25mm rounds currently used, that should more then make up for the reduction in ammo load, which isn’t that bad anyway. What’s more, the Germans already manufacture time fuse airburst 35mm shells.

As a midrange do it all fighter gun there are an awful lot of choices of 30mm cannon to pick from, the Russias have no less then eight different 30x165mm guns (counting AFV and AA weapons) but most of them would have big barrel life issues owing to very high rates of fire. The GSh-301 is the current standard for Russian fighters, so that’s the main one to consider. The KCA is certainly an option, and it shoots slower then the GSh-301 by about 500rpm (which still makes it a 1,300rpm gun!) so its probably one of the better choices around.

I’m really not sure how feasible it is to adjust the rates of fire of revolver cannon without causing reliability problems. If muzzle velocity and rate of fire can be reduced hand in hand, and heavier barrels certainly can be adapted, then just about any 30mm cannon should do as standard armament for fighters.

The real limiting factor for how much kill can happen in the next few weeks is weapons stores. Missiles, shells, bullets, all are being expended at a huge rate against Baldrick forces. Once these lines of production shake of the dust, it won't be as bad, but until then the situation's dicey. But on the other hand, demonic forces are unlikely to make any moves before these problems start to clear up. Let's not forget the fact that the US, Brits and Persian militaries are all probably throwing up earthworks miles deep around this portal. Smell the diesel fumes as D-9s cut into the earth, watch as every ounce of available concrete in Iraq cures into reinforced bunkers and see the glistening lines of razor wire that cover the land like tinsel.

Clausewitz said that defensive warfare is superior after all.

I think I've just found Stuart's alter ego

He is depicted as a man riding a winged horse, and is said to be beautiful.

Does that ring any bells, Stu?

Btw the General Abigor is modeled on has been revealed elsewhere. I won't reveal it (I'll leave that to Stu), but it would have been the last person I'd have guessed.

Ooh... is it Patton?

Think of the circumstances Abigor is under. None of Bradley, Zhukov or Patton quite match it.

phongn wrote:Think of the circumstances Abigor is under. None of Bradley, Zhukov or Patton quite match it.

Robert E. Lee, maybe?

While reading this, two (previously unmentioned) thoughts have occured to me.

1. What if Heaven gave up on Earth, not because it has enough souls, but because of 'domestic problems', so to speak? Supposedly, only the super-devout make it into heaven, but I could still see some issues being created from that. What if, say, the soul of a Super-Devout WASP ran into the soul of a super-devout Pope or stereotypical Southern Baptist? Could, perhaps, heaven have an influx of souls that aren't behaving because of biases or predjudices? Along the same lines, could fanatics of other religions (particularly Mosiac ones, like Islam or Jewdaism) go to heaven?

Or, on the opposite side, Heaven is actually running out of souls, since people aren't as devout or accuratley devout enough to qualify? Could Heaven be goading Hell into putting the fear of...well, hell, back into the people?

2. Do tatoos survive onto the afterlife?

Ooh... is it Patton?

I initially though that too, Chewie, but it's not. It's not Lee either.

If Satan is to push out an army of about 5 million, I am not sure that Stuart will initiate any nuclear devices to squash them.

USAF B series aircraft are yet to do their stuff. Let alone the probably increasing numbers of tube and MLRS artillery that are turning up in theatre together with fighter bombers and better infantry weapons.

Dealing with an army of that size is a matter for modern industrial warfare, for which the assets are available and being collected as long as Satan co-operates by using that one hell mouth.

Jonathan

Academia Nut wrote:Of course, the blind bum fucking panic when an entire army vanishes under a nuclear fireball would be even worse for the baldricks I would think.

I think it'll be a while before nukes are authorized-- they're as deadly to us as they are to demons, after all. Of course, a MOAB or the Russian "Father of All Bombs" should do the trick without threatening human infantry with radioactive fallout.

JN1 wrote:

He is depicted as a man riding a winged horse, and is said to be beautiful.

Does that ring any bells, Stu?

Btw the General Abigor is modeled on has been revealed elsewhere. I won't reveal it (I'll leave that to Stu), but it would have been the last person I'd have guessed.

General Joseph Hooker?

Hmm...in my random thoughtmeandering, an amber flag came up that I might just have to write some DIMO(N) research into once the whole 'harvested for energy' bit comes to light in-character. Energy isn't just a separate entity, it's got to be stored as something...so where's all this siphoned energy going? It's not food, demons eat meat, not Duracell. Is there the mother of all chemical batteries somewhere? Is it thermal, HEATING Hell? This bears some thought once the characters know enough to ask the question

KlavoHunter wrote:General Joseph Hooker?

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Robert E. Lee, maybe?

Er, neither of them served in WW2, tank names notwithstanding.

I'd guess the general would have to be from the authoritarian side of the war for it to fit in with the whole reporting to Satan thing.

One of Hitlers Generals?Guderian?

Belisarius?

Oh, WW2 general... Guderian sounds good

Since nobody's explicitly denied Rommel yet, I'm going to cast my vote in for him. I mean, he was in almost the same situation as Abigor, albeit on a much lesser magnitude. He was eventually forced to concede the African campaign and, upon reporting to Hitler, was re-assigned to the Western front.

Again, it was all many orders of magnitude less than what Abigor went through, but their experiences run along the same lines.