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I know damn well if I didnt capitulate you would have those peasants riot.

No more than college kids did in the U.S. in the 60s.

Unlike, say, the Floaters...

You were fucking well putting down riots with armored vehicles and dragons, and CHEERING about it. What did you expect?

We were damn well putting down riots because they were attacking us with God damned assault weapons! Are the Floaters really so dumb that they can't tell the difference?

Edit: Cheering? What the hell? I never posted any cheering at all.

I insist however that you edit your post. Magic is not innate, nor do even the magically barren live in anything that could be considered squalor. Nor are mages in sealed in invisible fortresses.

Not only that, but the modern conveniences(magical tap lights etc) can be used by anyone, and we do have magical speakers.

We were damn well putting down riots because they were attacking us with God damned assault weapons! Are the Floaters really so dumb that they can't tell the difference?

Mostly rocks and homemade weapons. Remeber, the guns were in the hands of the Ouster-supplied Mujahdeen, who were seeded in the crowds. Most crowds didn't have armed troops in em, besides whatever was in hand. It was a brutal occupation, clearly. So, some of the resistance fighters were well equipped- so what?

They can tell an unwanted occupation when they see it, and they can see a completely immoral blanket response, such as the Aquarian shift from stink-cloud spells and crowd control to dragonfire.

Edit: Cheering? What the hell? I never posted any cheering at all.

Yeah, but Alyrium did. The crowd went NUTS when Karsus told them how they'd smash the resistancce.

I insist however that you edit your post. Magic is not innate, nor do even the magically barren live in anything that could be considered squalor. Nor are mages in sealed in invisible fortresses.

Of course the magees aren't literally sealed in invisible fortresses- he was referring to what was, until recently, a shadow council. As for not living in squalor, I ask, what do disenfranchised, "stupid" people live in in a completely libertarian society? Trust me, I'm a hardcore libertarian. There IS no Libertopia, and it has it's underclasses like any other governmental system- and the magicless are clearly gonna be a big part of the underclass.

Aquarian shift from stink-cloud spells and crowd control to dragonfire.

No.. we used DragonFEAR. Dragons radiate an aura of near-irresitable fear

Mages may have been killed, but the bulk of the command staff was still alive and they cut through the undisip0lined mob like a whirlwind. Spells and sword working in tandum.

OBIDAN NE TRAuck VLASS!!

This was screamed by a mage and a chainlightning sprell was cast, seinging lightning cascading forth from his fingers. Striking down a massive section of the croud

"READY! LOOSE"

Arcane archers standing on what was left of the wall opened fire, picking their targets with a deadly rain of arrows.

Between the Arcane mages and the Nashtaran marines, the mob dispersed and fled, but there were hundreds of bodies laying on the pavement.

Not precisely dragonfire, but close enough forr the TV cameras.

Thirdfain wrote:

I insist however that you edit your post. Magic is not innate, nor do even the magically barren live in anything that could be considered squalor. Nor are mages in sealed in invisible fortresses.

Of course the magees aren't literally sealed in invisible fortresses- he was referring to what was, until recently, a shadow council. As for not living in squalor, I ask, what do disenfranchised, "stupid" people live in in a completely libertarian society? Trust me, I'm a hardcore libertarian. There IS no Libertopia, and it has it's underclasses like any other governmental system- and the magicless are clearly gonna be a big part of the underclass.

Even in a system like Hong Kongs(as libertarian as you can get) there are underclasses, but they can open up a business and do whatever they want. There ares killed craftsmen who make things without the use of magic, they are the weaponsmiths the furniture makers.. SOme things just can be made with magic. Anything that must serve as a vessell for a spell must be pure of enchantments. Mages pay top dollar for the basic materials upon which they cast their spells.
If a "fortress" is built it must be constructed using "standard" methods, that emplys workers etc etc etc.

Even in THIS economy there are high paying jobs for the magically barren. They still form a much needed part of society.

I never denied that our soldiers defended themselves. But we dont shoot first. If we get fired at, we shoot back and make an example of those that fire at us.

I've been to Hong Kong. There are plenty of slums, and whether they have jobs or not, it's the rift between them and the shining mirrored towers moreso than any disgruntledness with their own condition. It's a real effect, and we can see it throuhout history.

I will give you that.

I never denied that our soldiers defended themselves. But we dont shoot first. If we get fired at, we shoot back and make an example of those that fire at us

Right. No-one wants to have to do it. It's still a simple fact- you cast chain-lightening on a protesting crowd. You didn't assassinate the preists egging them on, or break them up with wide-area fear spells and gas, you cast chain-lightening on them and started shooting them full of arrows. Clearly the sort of thing the international media will sensationalize and plaster all over the channels.

Warning, big rant ahead.

Rogue 9 wrote:True. Also the ability to influence people, which, surprise, this guy seems to be doing very well. I seriously doubt he'd be unable to become a sorcerer if he can really whip up this crowd like that.

Actually, if you'd like, I could read you the class description of sorcerers. It's an INNATE ability, it can't be taught. It is just unlocked and harnessed. If you are born without the ability, well, too bad, so sad.

And once more, we come to the crossroads where we have to decide if we can use the D20 rules (which always seem to get twisted somehow from the version I've always seen), or if we decide to move on and become independant of the crutch that D20 is here. Nobody else is going to respect D20 rules, and I'm sure as heck not going to start making up D20 stats for all my ships, equipment, and people, just so I can compete with Alyrium.

The fact of the matter is this: a portion of the population in the Arcane Empire are made up of people who have no say in matters of government.

If you want to look at it further, NOBODY seems to have a say in matters of government. Only one head of state is made public, which means the public can't possibly know who RUNS, much less who WINS. And then there's Alyrium's psionic head of state was certainly publicizing his existance and position, and was even commenting on how much the people loved him and begged him to be re-elected (wow, how did they know if it's such a well-kept secret?)

On top of that, the single most powerful mages in his nation seem to somehow be the ones who are elected, constantly. I haven't heard of any changes in the heads of states yet...so far they seem pretty static. And the people sure LOVE their heads of state.

But I digress...you argue that the only people who don't know magic are the ones who can't learn because they are too ugly and stupid to learn any spells at all. Okay, so 90% of Alyrium's nation is above average intelligence. Whatever. There's still a D20 rule loophole that Alyrium has forgotten about.

Level advancement stat bonuses. Someone "born" with less than average intelligence or charisma can improve their attributes by tilling a field for long enough. Whoops, there's the worker revolt as Ugly Jimmy suddenly jumps from CHA 9 to CHA 12.

But, as I said, D20 is a crutch. One that is being used poorly. It needs to be dropped, soon, for the sanity of the STGOD.

Oh, and Alyrium? If your average INT and CHA is 16 (which is prodigy level), pray, tell, why is your civilization locked at 14th Century tech? If that was the tech level when you discovered magic, and you've had 15,000 years of improving your intelligence and creativity...why did nobody discover how to make any advancements in technology at all?

I mean, seriously, for crying out loud, by your own admission, your AVERAGE person is roughly equivilant to Newton or Darwin...and out of your entire population, nobody, not one, every thought to make any advances in technology, at all.

Just so you can have uber-twinked D&D mage society, which you slap on a few buzzwords to so you can make it "current".

Well you have to deal with some harsh facts of life. The gold standard you use? It's going to kill your economy with other nations. You can't rely on NPC nations in order to gain the trade you need to expand at the rate you're going, it's just not going to work. You refuse to raise your taxes in a time a crisis, that just means you're going to go broke faster as your spending increases. Your libertarian democracy clearly isn't either, and a minority that feels it is being oppressed is going to act out in some way, shape or form.

Right now, when I see your nation, all I see is a race of uber-twinked magic-using brainwashed zombie clones. Every single ship has a bare minimum of a 17th level (LEGENDARY) mage on board in order to cast Mord's Disjunction (which doesn't remove spellcasting ability, as I have previous mention, except in very rare occasions), and Prismatic Sphere, and who knows what else.

Your nation is reliant on a group of people to keep things running. These people always seem to avoid harm. Always. There doesn't seem to be a way to kill them, and there's no promise that if we do manage to kill off a large number of mages, that you won't just bring them back with a bunch of True Ressurection spells, since you gave yourself clerical magic too. No harm, no foul.

In fact, you seem to have given yourself everything in D&D to play with. What next, Avatars of Mystra and dropping a Tarrasque on a world you don't like?

That's the next part, the immunity stuff you keep bringing up. Yeah, it's a part of D&D, that doesn't mean it should be something you bring here. You want to say something is immune to HEAT damage? I see that as you've got tough HEAT resistant armor, personally. The problem is, there are no limits. You can be good at anything, because you lack the biggest restrictions mages face: YOU DON'T DECLARE SPELLS BEFORE YOU GET INTO COMBAT. You could cast any spell you want and justify it by saying you had it memorized earlier that morning, and that's unbalanced. If I pull something out of my sleeve, I have to justify it. You, with your magic, don't.

And yes, I know about how Sorcerers don't have to memorize spells, but guess what, they're also very limited in spell selection. That's the price they pay, they can't have as wide or varied a repitoire as a solid book mage.

Now I'll say this one last time so I am perfectly clear, and I will put it in nice, large, shiny letters so the point is not missed:


I DON'T CARE IF YOU WANT TO BASE YOUR MAGIC ON D&D, BUT YOU CANNOT USE IT TO BREAK THE DS9 TECH LEVEL OR GAME BALANCE.

The more you rely on D&D, the more unbalanced you become. Don't pull spells straight from the player's handbook. Look at the capabilities in the STGOD, and find ways to MIMIC them through magic. Don't assume your spells work all the time, every time, just because it's magic (which you do, a LOT), because that's clear godmoding. I don't care what the D&D books say, I'm looking at what's possible in the STGOD, and the ability for one person to do half the things your uber-mages do, it's unbalanced. Why? Because your AVERAGE citizen with 16 INT and 16 CHA can cast your highest level spells, eventually, and your people have long, long lifespans, and you have a LOT of people. So that's a very large portion of your population which have more power than most nations special forces. I'd really, really like to know how that's NOT unbalanced.

Not precisely dragonfire, but close enough forr the TV cameras.

At that point the crowd had just set off what any technological (ie: Floater) people would take to be a HUGE ASS BOMB. They really think we should stand around and get blown up while asking them if they would pretty please stop? I say again, are they stupid?

sweet fancy jesus.

What? Didn't you notice that the Arcane CP had just gotten blown to smithereens right before that happened? Before Tycho edited his post, he had a wave of magical energy sweeping through the city and killing every offworlder in the city, my Marines a mile away on the outskirts included! The Floaters seriously don't see a counterattack as a viable option in that scenario?

At that point the crowd had just set off what any technological (ie: Floater) people would take to be a HUGE ASS BOMB. They really think we should stand around and get blown up while asking them if they would pretty please stop? I say again, are they stupid?

Absolutly, it was a huge ass bomb. No question. But the T.V. cameras (some of which, BTW, are indirectly controlled by Ouster intelligence) would not hesistate to focus more on the massacre of civilians. You need look no further than the nearest TV to see the problems with the Nashter/Arcanist occupation and why it will not go over well with the more liberal nations (and Floaters are pretty fuckin liberal.) Iraq is a very similar situation, but you'll note that the two major focuses of the coverage are U.S. casualties and U.S. breaches of human rights. If you aren't from the U.S, the casualties won't interest you half as much as the human rights breaches- and even if you ARE from the U.S, the human rights problems have a pretty good chance of being more important to you.

Replace "U.S" with Arcanist, and there you go.

What? Didn't you notice that the Arcane CP had just gotten blown to smithereens right before that happened? Before Tycho edited his post, he had a wave of magical energy sweeping through the city and killing every offworlder in the city, my Marines a mile away on the outskirts included! The Floaters seriously don't see a counterattack as a viable option in that scenario?

The magical energy thing was bullshit and stricken from the records.

As for the bombing of the CP, see the previous post. People will care more about the Arcanist's breaches of human rights than their casualties. Note that Karsus' speech suggests that this sort of response is to become the norm, and that was the catalyst which lit off the Floater escape.

Alyrium's psionic head of state was certainly publicizing his existance and position, and was even commenting on how much the people loved him and begged him to be re-elected (wow, how did they know if it's such a well-kept secret?)

Because people on the COuncil of Seven are Dual members of the COuncil of Mages. They have to run for re-election at the local level just like everyone else.

On top of that, the single most powerful mages in his nation seem to somehow be the ones who are elected, constantly. I haven't heard of any changes in the heads of states yet...so far they seem pretty static. And the people sure LOVE their heads of state.

You realize that we have been in game for maybe a few mpnths to a year right?

Level advancement stat bonuses. Someone "born" with less than average intelligence or charisma can improve their attributes by tilling a field for long enough. Whoops, there's the worker revolt as Ugly Jimmy suddenly jumps from CHA 9 to CHA 12

.

He would have to be a level 12 peasant to do that....

Oh, and Alyrium? If your average INT and CHA is 16 (which is prodigy level), pray, tell, why is your civilization locked at 14th Century tech? If that was the tech level when you discovered magic, and you've had 15,000 years of improving your intelligence and creativity...why did nobody discover how to make any advancements in technology at all?

We do the exact same shit, with a different mechanism. That is our MECHANICAL tech level. A peasant building contractor for example would own a golem that lifts heavy things.

We know of chemistry, and evolution and special reletivity, we utilize all of it... in spells rather than machines. If we want to alter genetics, we cast spell that allow us to view and change a nucleotide sequence rahter than use a computer.

In fact, you seem to have given yourself everything in D&D to play with. What next, Avatars of Mystra and dropping a Tarrasque on a world you don't like?

Nope, wouldnt do that, game balance.

That's the next part, the immunity stuff you keep bringing up. Yeah, it's a part of D&D, that doesn't mean it should be something you bring here. You want to say something is immune to HEAT damage? I see that as you've got tough HEAT resistant armor, personally. The problem is, there are no limits. You can be good at anything, because you lack the biggest restrictions mages face: YOU DON'T DECLARE SPELLS BEFORE YOU GET INTO COMBAT. You could cast any spell you want and justify it by saying you had it memorized earlier that morning, and that's unbalanced. If I pull something out of my sleeve, I have to justify it. You, with your magic, don't.

Was my demon immune? no, it lost a leg and eventually fell.
Have you checked my OOB? I have detailed spells you can expect to see. There. Did that in the first place. I dont often use telepathy or psionics in combat.

Don't assume your spells work all the time, every time, just because it's magic (which you do, a LOT), because that's clear godmoding.

Where? Where have a claimed to be immune to jamming? Where have I claimed to be immune to enemy shields or to be able to pass through them? Where have I claimed to be able to instantly decipher scripts?

Yeah, my average person has 16 INT.. becaused 15k years of what amounts to selective breeding will do that to a group of people. Most people know the rudiments of spallcasting, and many dont advance in it.

Elves have anaturally long lifespan, so do everyone but the humans. But guess what? Not every human lives that long. People that are capable of epic level casting yeah sure, people in government live a while.

And True ressurection is outside the tech level, so I wont use it.

I'd like to point out that the prism shield, which make your ships invul, is just really, well, lame. Basically, as long as you don't lose or force your opponent to retreat, your losses are greatly lessened. And of course thanks to magic it won't take long to fix those ships, thanks to magic you can just summon an army of repair demons and have the whole thing done in a single afternoon.

It takes just as long for me to fix those ships as it will take anyone else.

It is for the crews protection more than anything, the ships that out that up are unusable for a while...

Besides, some of us are looking for ways to handle that lil' problem

Silly Rogue! that;s just where the meeting took place. Do you REALLY think the disparate pirate groups would all work out of a single base?

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

Alyrium's psionic head of state was certainly publicizing his existance and position, and was even commenting on how much the people loved him and begged him to be re-elected (wow, how did they know if it's such a well-kept secret?)

Because people on the COuncil of Seven are Dual members of the COuncil of Mages. They have to run for re-election at the local level just like everyone else.

Again, why the secrecy, if this is supposed to be an open Democracy? It makes no sense.

You realize that we have been in game for maybe a few mpnths to a year right?

Yes, and you've made direct reference already to one council member basically being a council member for life, serving hundreds of years in office. Term limits, anyone?

He would have to be a level 12 peasant to do that....

Yeah, so? You're chock full of Legendary and Epic level characters all throughout your empire, and you've got a large population. Are you saying there are no highly experienced peasants?

We do the exact same shit, with a different mechanism. That is our MECHANICAL tech level. A peasant building contractor for example would own a golem that lifts heavy things.

We know of chemistry, and evolution and special reletivity, we utilize all of it... in spells rather than machines. If we want to alter genetics, we cast spell that allow us to view and change a nucleotide sequence rahter than use a computer.

Still, there is no logical reason your "mechanical" tech level would suck so much, given that you clearly have the means to improve it, and quite quickly. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Nope, wouldnt do that, game balance.

But mass charm, prismatic sphere, et al are perfectly acceptable. You already summoned an Astral Deva, and referenced the Forgotten Realms Pantheon as having granted powers to your specfor. Pray, what are those analogs to?

Was my demon immune? no, it lost a leg and eventually fell.

Yeah, to kinetic damage from the penetrator. You never said it had any burn damage, now did you? You're evading the point.

Have you checked my OOB? I have detailed spells you can expect to see. There. Did that in the first place.

Yes, yes, you stated the spells you can expect us to see, from mageblades, and a handful of other spells...however, you still reserve the right to pull something out as you need it. For example, I didn't see hold person on your list, yet you obviously have it. You also don't list metamagic feats, but yet you obviously have them.

I dont often use telepathy or psionics in combat.

Mind affecting spells are mind affecting spells.

Don't assume your spells work all the time, every time, just because it's magic (which you do, a LOT), because that's clear godmoding.

Where? Where have a claimed to be immune to jamming? Where have I claimed to be immune to enemy shields or to be able to pass through them? Where have I claimed to be able to instantly decipher scripts?

Where did I claim you did those specific things? Oh, right, I didn't. Oh, but wait, you did auto-charm entire worlds. And you auto-held those Jaffa at the Alpha Prime conference.

Yeah, my average person has 16 INT.. becaused 15k years of what amounts to selective breeding will do that to a group of people. Most people know the rudiments of spallcasting, and many dont advance in it.

Really? Let's talk numbers, shall we? How big is your army? How many of them use magic, all of them? What's the minimum casting requirement before you see active duty?

Elves have anaturally long lifespan, so do everyone but the humans. But guess what? Not every human lives that long. People that are capable of epic level casting yeah sure, people in government live a while.

Which just brings us back to the original point, your government is clearly not a democracy. In a democracy, anyone can apply for office, not just the elite of the elite spellcasters. In fact, the elite of the elite spellcasters are better off in industry, research, and education for the most part. What part of locking yourself in a library with a bunch of dusty tomes makes you a more qualified leader?

And True ressurection is outside the tech level, so I wont use it.

There's a difference between outside of the tech level, and outside of game balance. If you had a nation which had all the techs of all the nations here combined, and had them at the same level, it would still be inside the tech level, but it would not be inside of game balance.