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But that's the thing about an A-10; it's got good armor compared to normal aircraft. Not as much as a tank, true, but I'm thinking once the Warthog has an Angel in its sights, the monster gun they call the GAU-8 Avenger would be winning the argument conclusively.

Considering it's a GAU-8, a paper airplane that could somehow fly with one of those would kill anything that gets into its sights, though.

The A-10 probably isn't going to be able to take angelic trumpet blasts, though. Those things are ludicrous overkill for conventional aircraft; supposedly they can take out stone walls, and they can rattle tanks. So... even with the armor, I don't think the airframe can take it.

It's an A-10 though, it'll be shaken to peices but parts of it will still fly!

I wonder if the 30mm round would survive a trumpet blast though?

Edward Yee wrote:I wonder if the 30mm round would survive a trumpet blast though?

It might be able to deflect one round. But not all of them. Word of Stuart says that trumpeting works on a resonance frequency sort of deal, so each bullet would have to be targeted individually, and angels ain't that fast.

Sorry, but not quite. The bullets are all identical; they'd have the same resonance characteristics.

Not really. No manufacturing process is that good. OTOH, they will be very similar, possibly similar enough that one trumpet blast can take out most of a burst. But if the rounds are big enough, it only takes one to get through and hit to really ruin an angel's day.

If their size scales with rank the way the daemons do, most of them won't be nearly as big as Uriel or Michael.

I think that instead of neutralizing the bullets, resonance would break them in smaller parts, creating a shotgun effect.

The momentum certainly wouldn't go away, yes. But wind resistance would dramatically increase, so if the pieces are far enough away they'd still end up harmless.

If not.. yes. Shotgun.

PaperJack wrote:I think that instead of neutralizing the bullets, resonance would break them in smaller parts, creating a shotgun effect.

Resonance doesn't mean that anything and everything gets shaken to bits. An object's resonant frequency is the frequency at which the object best absorbs the energy of an incident wave. Waves at other frequencies tend to propagate within the object in ways that result in themselves canceling each other out in the long run. The resonant frequency of an object is not constant: it can change based on the direction the wave comes from, the ambient temperature, and a host of other variables. Most objects will resonate on a very tight band - the resonant frequency is just the peak of the frequency response graph. E.g. if a bullet has a resonant frequency of 4kHz, it will probably also respond pretty well with a signal at 3.98kHz or 4.03kHz. However, this margin of error, so to speak, will be very small for most objects. Another thing to consider is that the height of the resonant peak varies among objects: for a very good oscillator, such as the driver in a speaker (or certain bridges ), the peak will be relatively high, meaning that it will vibrate vigorously when driven. On the other hand, a block of foam will have a very low resonant peak - it vibrates a little more to certain frequencies, but even then not much at all. Obviously, most objects fall somewhere in the middle.

Since the angel's trumpet is an extremely pure note, it is essentially emitting an audible sound wave containing precisely one frequency. Thus the bullet(s) will be encountering a sine wave of pressure at a single precise frequency in the audible range. Now, if I recall correctly, the HEA decided that high explosive rounds work best against superhumans, because armor piercing rounds just went right through doing minimal damage. Thus the 30mm rounds would essentially be a hollow steel or depleted uranium shell, with some explosive charge contained in the core. If we assume that the angel is able to miraculously tune their trumpeting to somewhere in the narrow resonant band of the shell, it is very unlikely that it will be shaken apart: metals tend to be very soft, which means they can bend very well. More likely is that the distortion experienced by the casing could cause the bullet's orientation to destabilize, sending it into a spin, and thus greatly decreasing the effective range and accuracy. However, since modern bullets are shot from rifled barrels, the bullet already has a spin along the axis in which it is shot, gyroscopically stabilizing it. My knowledge of aerodynamics is insufficient to really analyze whether the bullet would actually become destabilized. My instinct says that if an angel were attempting to trumpet an oncoming bullet, this scenario is unlikely, but if the trumpet came from another angle, it might be possible. Another possibility is for the resonance to somehow trigger the explosive charge early. I don't know anything about how HE rounds are detonated, so I can't make a meaningful comment about it. All of this, of course, assumes that the angel is somehow able to predict a projectile's resonant frequency, AND tune its trumpet to that frequency AND hit the projectile.

(if someone who knows more about munitions than I do wants to correct/qualify/clarify any statements in this paragraph, please do)

Another thing to consider is that, because the trumpet can travel large distances and retain much of its strength, we can surmise that the dispersal pattern must be relatively tight. Furthermore, since it emits from the angel's mouth, the cross sectional area of the wave along the axis of propagation can't be any larger than the mouth opening when it leaves the angel. Given this, the cross section is unlikely to get very large until quite far along the trumpet's trajectory. Thus the trumpet blast is unlikely to be able to fully intercept a spray of bullets. Given all of these factors, my opinion is that trumpeting would be quite ineffective at suppressing bullet fire.

You pose a good point. How are the angels istantly going to figure out the resonant frequencies of human weaponry before becoming swiss cheese ? Are there any limits to their sound making ability's frequencies ?

I think it was stated that angels first send out a weak burst of sound, sort of like echolocation, to figure out what frequency to use. If I'm remembering that right, then that would mean that trumpeting is utterly ineffective against anything going above the speed of sound, IE bullets. By the time the echolocation burst gets back to the angel, the bullets will be there too.

PaperJack wrote:You pose a good point. How are the angels istantly going to figure out the resonant frequencies of human weaponry before becoming swiss cheese ? Are there any limits to their sound making ability's frequencies ?

I would imagine they can only calibrate their blasts AT the speed of sound. That is, an initial beam hits, they get some sort of read on the reflection, and then tune accordingly.

Vifee wrote:I think it was stated that angels first send out a weak burst of sound, sort of like echolocation, to figure out what frequency to use. If I'm remembering that right, then that would mean that trumpeting is utterly ineffective against anything going above the speed of sound, IE bullets. By the time the echolocation burst gets back to the angel, the bullets will be there too.

Not to mention, such feedback would be essentially impossible in an environment as noisy as a battlefield.

It's magic. They calibrate their blasts by magic. Their magic blasts.

Let's be honest, in no sane universe would their trumpeting work. There's limited usefulness in trying to limit it with science, since science says nothing should happen in the first place.

Baughn wrote:It's magic. They calibrate their blasts by magic. Their magic blasts.

Let's be honest, in no sane universe would their trumpeting work. There's limited usefulness in trying to limit it with science, since science says nothing should happen in the first place.

But it's fun to apply science to magic!

Baughn wrote:It's magic. They calibrate their blasts by magic. Their magic blasts.

Let's be honest, in no sane universe would their trumpeting work. There's limited usefulness in trying to limit it with science, since science says nothing should happen in the first place.

That's a ridiculous assumption, since it marginalizes about half of the most interesting things in these stories. The various daemonic powers were "magic" at first blush, but human ingenuity and science broke them down and figured them out, and it was not only significant to advancing the plot (i.e. how do we kill them / work against their powers) but also symbolically significant (i.e. even the angels and daemons think of their powers as "magic", but humans know better using science and reason, the main reasons why we're winning this war in the first place).

In addition, science NEVER says something should not/never happen. We are limited to our current scientific perspective, and from that we can make assumptions, hypothesize, and predict, but science never dismisses something outright. If something new pops up that violates some existing law or contradicts what science "knows", it adjusts to the new knowledge and broadens that perspective. So to say that there is limited usefulness in applying science and reason to something that was previously believed to be impossible is in itself antithetical to the very foundations of science.

at what my simple one-sentence question has caused...

It's right... up until it isn't.

Speaking of Erra's take on science, I thought this was an interesting take -- a fundie who so accurately finds the underlying concept behind science.

Erra wrote:In addition, science NEVER says something should not/never happen. We are limited to our current scientific perspective, and from that we can make assumptions, hypothesize, and predict, but science never dismisses something outright. If something new pops up that violates some existing law or contradicts what science "knows", it adjusts to the new knowledge and broadens that perspective. So to say that there is limited usefulness in applying science and reason to something that was previously believed to be impossible is in itself antithetical to the very foundations of science.

I think he meant from an out-universe perspective, i.e. it wouldn't work realistically so the properties can be more or less treated as a matter of authorial fiat because it runs on handwavium anyway.

Junghalli wrote:

Erra wrote:In addition, science NEVER says something should not/never happen. We are limited to our current scientific perspective, and from that we can make assumptions, hypothesize, and predict, but science never dismisses something outright. If something new pops up that violates some existing law or contradicts what science "knows", it adjusts to the new knowledge and broadens that perspective. So to say that there is limited usefulness in applying science and reason to something that was previously believed to be impossible is in itself antithetical to the very foundations of science.

I think he meant from an out-universe perspective, i.e. it wouldn't work realistically so the properties can be more or less treated as a matter of authorial fiat because it runs on handwavium anyway.

I understand that, and in any other story I would say that that is enough. However, this serie's very groundwork is based on human reason and science overcoming what would usually be allocated to handwavium and magic. It doesn't fit as a part of the literary theme for an integral unknown power to go unexamined and given an at least fictional explanation.

Imagine the music (and weapons) we could make if we knew how to create pure notes and resonance frequencies.

Erra wrote: Imagine the music (and weapons) we could make if we knew how to create pure notes and resonance frequencies.

Like the "brown note" in South Park?

Erra wrote:Imagine the music (and weapons) we could make if we knew how to create pure notes and resonance frequencies.

Heavy metal that literally BLOWS YOUR MIND?

Yes, that would be awesome indeed, but it would be useful for crowd control purposes.

Scorpion wrote:

Erra wrote:Imagine the music (and weapons) we could make if we knew how to create pure notes and resonance frequencies.

Heavy metal that literally BLOWS YOUR MIND?

I've heard of death metal, but that's ridiculous!