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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:

DarthShady wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Shady, did you notice the mention of mass graves found in the Sargonian capital?

Yes. And you will have my reaction within a few moments. Mass graves bring up some bad memories, I was hoping such things could be avoided here.

Oh.. I actually avoided putting up pics because of potential bad taste. Sorry.

The Genie is out of the bottle now.

Ah, Stas, you magnificant bastard.

So... Shady, do you want to shell the capital Grozny style or...?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:So... Shady, do you want to shell the capital Grozny style or...?

Something like that, or perhaps send in special forces to take out Marek.

I'm off for the night so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

Also: SNC Guys I have a suggestion. To discuss internal alliance politics and stuff perhaps it would be a good idea to use ICQ(MSN?) or something like that. It would allow us to work together on stories, cooperation is good.

Oh yeah I was reminded of this commercial. For some reason it seemed very apropos, though of course Astaria lacks the racism inherent to this.

P.S. Pezook take note!

The time difference would force me to chat from work, which is a no-no (I am already risking a lot by posting here )

Anyway, I advise against shelling Zagor's capital. Let's organize a hit by intelligence agencies.

DarthShady wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:So... Shady, do you want to shell the capital Grozny style or...?

Something like that, or perhaps send in special forces to take out Marek.

I'm off for the night so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

Also: SNC Guys I have a suggestion. To discuss internal alliance politics and stuff perhaps it would be a good idea to use ICQ(MSN?) or something like that. It would allow us to work together on stories, cooperation is good.

Well, I'm sleeping.

But I would suggest something more tactful: Send in spec force troops to bring Marek out ALIVE. We want to have the spectacle of a court, then summary execution. Do note also, that there is a massive clean up and rebuilding op, and there's potentially another aggressor that might be getting the wrong ideas, but now a bit more.. reluctant to take any action after seeing the amount of firepower we brought to bear.

PeZook wrote:What about MAD detectors? A 40 000 tonne sub is going to produce a lot of magnetic interference, especially with a fully electric drive.

Doesn’t really matter if the sub is 2000 tons or 50,000 tons, MAD sucks, and is actually being removed from the latest US upgrade of the SH-60R. Basically MAD has a detection width is maybe a 150 feet to each side of the sub under ideal conditions, not very useful for searching an area. Meanwhile the false alarm rate is enormous because the magnetic field of the earth and no doubt SDN world, varies greatly in strength from area to area and can be affected by all sorts of shipwrecks, underwater iron deposits and that kind of thing. The result is MAD can be used to localize a contact already detected through other means, like say you need to sink a diesel sub that you saw snorkeling, and which is now hiding on the bottom, but you are not going to find a nuclear submarine hinding in the deep ocean with it.

This issue of varying magnetic fields BTW is why no ones magnetic torpedoes worked reliably in WW2. You could set the torpedo fuse to function for the magnetic conditions of any one region, but they wouldn’t work anywhere else. The post WW2 solution was to make an active magnetic fuse, which actually emits its own magnetic field and senses changes in THAT, rather then sensing distortions in the earths overall field.

Currently subs are only detectable with MAD if they are close to the surface, but I wonder if it would be possible to build a network of anchored underwater MAD detectors?

They did something like that in WW1, its call an indicator loop, and it’s simply a cable laid on the bottom. However such a system can only tell you that ‘something’ is passing over a part of the cable, and they can’t be strung any great distance, nor will they work in very deep water. Its basically something you can use to guard a harbor mouth, in WW2 they where commonly used to cue command detonated minefields for those purpose, or other coastal waterways with restricted access.

Or drop them like sonobuoys?

That really won’t work. A MAD is not like a hydrophone that can simply sit in the water and detect stuff passing all around it.

Another way to counter these subs is to continue development of torpedo countermeasures, like sonar jammers.

The impression I’ve gotten is that sonar jamming just doesn’t work, but decoys can and do. A couple avenues of approach are open for hard kill torpedo defence systems but ranging and precise location of the incoming torpedo remains a very difficult technological hurdle.

Also, another idea: drones? From torpedo-armed Predators able to react instantly to a sub firing a torpedo spread, to recoverable minisubs using AIP sailing around a convoy or battlegroup, acting like a mobile sonobuoy. They'd be periodically recovered and refuelled by aircraft, and would be armed with a single torpedo (or not at all, with actual attacks being handled by the ships and aircraft)

Those ideas would be preposterously expensive to implement, and not very effective. The ocean is huge and small subs that can maintain fleet speed would have to be nuclear powered. If they snorkel on adiesel they’ll here nothing, and be heard by enemy subs 100 miles away. I suggest ocean surveillance ships if you want to have a specialist submarine detection platform. Those things are basically mobile SOSUS coverage.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Those ideas would be preposterously expensive to implement, and not very effective. The ocean is huge and small subs that can maintain fleet speed would have to be nuclear powered. If they snorkel on adiesel they’ll here nothing, and be heard by enemy subs 100 miles away. I suggest ocean surveillance ships if you want to have a specialist submarine detection platform. Those things are basically mobile SOSUS coverage.

Are there examples that are currently deployed? How do those compare against the sonar mounted on current destroyers and frigates/corvettes?

No ocean surveillance ships are currently deployed, only the USN ever had them in the 1980s and all were retired at the end of the Cold War. Designated Stalwart class T-AGOS. The sonar was an enormous towed array 8,000 feet long pulled at 3 knots on additional 6,000 feet of cable. Sonar range was out to the third or possibly forth convergence zone, which is similar to the capabilities of a normal towed array (well 3rd zone is) but with much greater probability of detecting a contact at any given range. This was a combination of the huge sonar footprint, and the fact that at 3 knots the ships generated almost no self noise.

The idea was a series of them would slowly sail back and forth across the Atlantic covering convoy routes, as fixed SOSUS sites could not be expected to survive Soviet attack. They had no real defensive weapons; the idea was to hide amongst other shipping while making no noise and generating no emissions save a secure satellite uplink to send all the sonar data ashore.

British Type 22 and especially Type 23 frigates had a mildly similar role in terms of being highly specialized towed array ships. To allow for optimal sonar performance a Type 23 actually cruises on diesel engines located above the waterline to reduce self noise.

Jesus tittyfucking Christ. I'm gone for two days and all hell breaks loose in Frequsque, including people I thought were in the FTO not being in the FTO and a bunch of other bullshit. My initial reaction, having skimmed things, is the FTO is rapidly becoming pointless. Some members want to be full members of other alliances (meaning if they went to war, we'd all have to go to war to protect the other alliance.) and great powers are in Frequesque doing god knows what.

Edit: Well Great . Frequesque is becoming the host for pissing matches between the Great Powers. Just what I didn't want. Now time to figure out how to salvage things somewhat.

A map of the region-in-conflict;

Czechmate, for the record Indhopal is mightily pissed at your nation inviting in Tian Xia to be your protector here. Having them around is pretty much completely contrary to Indhopal's foreign policy goals, which are to have no foreign military presence in Frequesue at all. (I'm not happy with the foreign naval base in the Vineyards either, and before the current shit storm I was hoping that through diplomacy and such I could convince them to get rid of it.) So consider any offers of aid from Indhopal withdrawn unless you change your position with Tian Xia and ask their troops to leave.

Edit: I've also now sent PM's to all FTO members reagrding Indhopal's tentative plan of action on the current crisis. If any FTO members didn't get one, please let me know.

Sure! I'll totally give up protection and economic support from a major world power in exchange for being just another limp-dick state in Australia besieged by a neighbor the world's largest socialist state insists on supporting!

Jeez, dude. Remember how realpolitik works.

/rant

My good man, the entire point of the FTO is to enable all the nations of Frequesque to survive and prosper without the interference of foreign powers. Where's your backbone, sirrah? How can you look at yourself in the mirror, knowing that you've sold you nation's soul to an imperialist power?

/rant

EDIT: Thanks for the message, Raj.

To add some stuff to Skimmer's proposal - Russia uses Vignette-EM towed arrays, Europeans use ATAS, CAPTAS, etc.

Also, just what do you have in the area Beowulf?

And could someone fill me in on what does Westchester field, in terms of Army/Navy?

Another round of PM's as the crisis is discussed over the secure FTO hotline. This round is quite important so please respond quickly!

Why do you ask, Stas? Surely you're not planning outright military action against Tian Jiao?

PS: Beo's OOB is at the bottom of page one of the country thread, mine's about midway through page 2.

Navally speaking I field, if I'm at Oh Dear God Emergency funding level, the following. Keep in mind this is the senior service.

-1 Shortdeck CV (late model Midway-class)
-2 STOBAR CVS-variant CVLs ('Wake Island-class')
-4 DDGs (Arleigh Burke Flight III)
-7 FFGs (Modernized Oliver Hazard Perry-class)
-4 SSIs (Type 212-class)
-3 T-AOEs (Supply-class)
-1 LHA (Tarawa-class)
-1 LSD (Whidbey Island-class)
-2 LPDs (Austin-class)

On the ground I field five brigade combat teams plus a Marine regimental combat team.

The airforce is a couple hundred planes of various types, but half its' number is swing-wing F-110-engined F-4 Phantom reserve planes.

Czechmate wrote:Sure! I'll totally give up protection and economic support from a major world power in exchange for being just another limp-dick state in Australia besieged by a neighbor the world's largest socialist state insists on supporting!

Jeez, dude. Remember how realpolitik works.

Well what can Tian Xia give you right now? How many troops? They have to bring all their crap in on ships. The FTO can simply send men in via road and rail and possibly open a second front on your enemy right now if you were a member (That isn't an offer that we would do so btw, as they would be up to the Vineyards.)

Oh, how many planes has Tian Xia committed? The FTO has hundreds in position which could begin striking against your foe right now.

Also the goodwill of your neighbors is something to consider. You went and made yourself a protectorate of a great power on a continent which is dominated by an alliance which holds as a amjor tenat they don't want Great power politics in their backyard. Whoops. Looks like you might have just fucked trade with all your neighbors, and perhaps the FTO would see you as part of the problem now. Indhopal certainly does.

Oh, Beowulf's entire OOB is not what he currently fields in there... which is presumably, nothing, right?

Yeah, but the FTO is an alliance of tiny duchies and, like, one principality. put together, you -might- equal one Tsardom. and 'protectorate' is the wrong term. Tian Jiao is now an autonomous province of the Empire of Tian Xia and as such is essentially sovereign Tian Xia territory administered by a colonial government.

I wasn't particularly counting on any of the FTO for help anyways. The PRSF's invasion is just part of a whole arc with a specific end result. Those of you who look down upon Tian Jiao for their actions in the face of invasion by an enemy with an army easily ten or twelve times theirs in size; you would be best served keeping to yourselves. The FTO is a pointless endeavor. If the Great Powers want to involve themselves, there's nothing you can really do to stop them.

EDIT: Stas, Beo will be posting his deployed forces in this thread within the next hour or so.

Stas Bush wrote:To add some stuff to Skimmer's proposal - Russia uses Vignette-EM towed arrays, Europeans use ATAS, CAPTAS, etc.

Also, just what do you have in the area Beowulf?

And could someone fill me in on what does Westchester field, in terms of Army/Navy?

Southeast of the conflict zone, there is:
The Vigilant Carrier Strike Group:
1 Ford-class carrier
3 DGN-52s - essentially nuclear Flight III Burkes
2 SSNs
1 Carrier Air Wing:
32 F-14E
32 A-7F
6 S-3B
4 E-2D
2 C-2B
+helicopter support

Just deployed to eastern Tian Jiao:
1 F-15C Wing (57 aircraft)
1 F-15F Wing (55 aircraft)
1 F-16DJ Wing (56 aircraft)
1 squadron EC-42B (8 aircraft - AEW&C)
1 flight EC-42C (4 aircraft - JSTARS equivalent)
1 KC-42A Wing (40 aircraft)
3rd Airborne Assault Division

Missing components of the wings will trickle in as the conflict progresses. This does not include forces that can strike, but are not based in the area, nor forces which are deploying to the region, but are not there yet.

Czechmate wrote: I wasn't particularly counting on any of the FTO for help anyways. The PRSF's invasion is just part of a whole arc with a specific end result. Those of you who look down upon Tian Jiao for their actions in the face of invasion by an enemy with an army easily ten or twelve times theirs in size; you would be best served keeping to yourselves. The FTO is a pointless endeavor. If the Great Powers want to involve themselves, there's nothing you can really do to stop them.

So Tian Xia's military on the other side of the world helps you how against your adversary? You'd be pulverized before they could shift any significant forces to you if you really are outnumbered that much.

Also go fuck yourself on your opinion of the FTO. Our response to the crisis has yet to really be revealed as no one man makes decisions for it and with serious possible repercussions any course of action here must be discussed.

Look. The FTO shouldn't be involving itself, especially regarding the CSR presence. As much as your help would be appreciated (and you seem to be the only FTO member unwilling to help), you'll just be risking yourself. I still might not be able to hold the western side of the country.

Nonetheless, the forces already deployed by San Dorado and Coilerburg are welcome to contribute and will be included in planning. Indophal and the Vineyards may do as they wish.

EDIT: Thanks for posting your stuff Beo. As far as I can tell, the air advantage belongs to TJ/TX, the ground advantage to the PRSF, and the naval situation remains undecided, despite Stas' interference.

Stas Bush wrote:To add some stuff to Skimmer's proposal - Russia uses Vignette-EM towed arrays, Europeans use ATAS, CAPTAS, etc.

Also, just what do you have in the area Beowulf?

And could someone fill me in on what does Westchester field, in terms of Army/Navy?

It will take one heck of a crash program to deploy something like that.