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Czechmate wrote:Four things.

1) Estovakia is high second world; the per-capita income is approximately 34,000 dollars. The bar for First World is 35k per capita. To answer your question, the budget is somewhere between a duchy and a principality.
2) I wasn't aware the point of playing this game was to constrain yourself to bullshit levels of power and budget rather than to write interesting story arcs and, I don't know, enjoy yourself.

Follow the rules established in the OP.

3) Estovakia is an island nation with a large navy and the correspondingly large naval budget fraction. Who are you to say that a country with a strong seafaring tradition doesn't have a dock capable of constructing a Kuznetsov?

Australia is an Island nation with a strong maritime tradition, and they were never able to build carriers while struggling to maintain the CVLs they got second hand from the RN. They best they could build are the new LHDs.

4) I am not justifying any more of this to anyone. None of you are mods. Play your own countries and stop bothering me about mine.

Bullshit. Sorry Czechmate, but a certain amount of realism has to be expected, at least from a socio-economic point of view. Everyone followed the rules put forth when the game started, you do to.

What's so weird about Ryan? He's almost exactly analogous to Sweden, the only thing different is lower population density. Sweden has a small army, too - barely one division strong in total.

EDIT: Oh, and 34 000 dollars per capita is not "high second world", it's definitely First World. If 35 thousand was the border, it woul mean France is a second world country

PeZook wrote:EDIT: Oh, and 34 000 dollars per capita is not "high second world", it's definitely First World. If 35 thousand was the border, it woul mean France is a second world country :D

Using the Population Declared on the Wiki Page (~21,200,000) x a 34,000 Per Capita gains you 720.8 Billion, more than a Principality, so yeah. Fuck no.

Okay, Czech; look at Miratia. You see what I got to work with? Yeah, you're gonna end up like that, one way or another. You're just gonna be really small, so you'll have a somewhat easier time of it. You aren't going to start with a country that can fuck around with the likes of mine, and there's no way in hell you're going to be fucking around with countries like Tian Xia. Just accept it, will ya?

I get a feeling you may find this informative.

Czechmate, I'm trying to be nice to you, but you're pushing it.

Follow the rules or cease to exist. The choice is yours.

SiegeTank wrote:

Ryan Thunder wrote:Dude, I had to deal with it too. My population density is lower than friggin CANADA for crying out loud, if I've got the scale right.

Well yes, but to be frankly honest your country's population is hilariously low; you're a duchy like San Dorado, but you have what, 8 million citizens? Versus San Dorado's 24 million inhabitants? It's one thing to sacrifice population density for a First World per capita GDP, but hell--you're pushing it pretty far .

Yeah, I realize that, in retrospect. But it's a little late to have an additional, uh... seven million people just appear out of nowhere to knock the numbers down to borderline first-world levels...

Thank you for codifying what should have been policy, but I think Lord Gero is too low, we need to go to the moon to be truly safe from dastardly revolutionaries.

Or you could, you know, have actually competent police that won't let dozens of people toting MANPADS run around your planned route

PeZook wrote:Or you could, you know, have actually competent police that won't let dozens of people toting MANPADS run around your planned route :P

This is Frequesue, it would be out of place for there NOT to be heavily armed people.

Seriously though, the two places helicopters were shot down were a society that relied on its civilians to be heavily armed, and a shithole that was broken the day it was opened, both places a civilized nation shouldn't worry about (edit: That is to say, they should not worry about getting shot down in Frequesue, as long as you stick to travelling cross country by boat and stay near the cities and not destroyed nations.) .

PeZook wrote:Or you could, you know, have actually competent police that won't let dozens of people toting MANPADS run around your planned route

It doesn't help that the police and military are outnumbered by state sanctioned mercenaries who have main battle tanks and a willingness to work for virtually anybody .

Raj, you might want to be a bit more clear on the losses you're taking and the opposition you're up against. The way your campaign is starting to look, it's a tad lopsided.

Ryan Thunder wrote:

SiegeTank wrote:

Ryan Thunder wrote:Dude, I had to deal with it too. My population density is lower than friggin CANADA for crying out loud, if I've got the scale right.

Well yes, but to be frankly honest your country's population is hilariously low; you're a duchy like San Dorado, but you have what, 8 million citizens? Versus San Dorado's 24 million inhabitants? It's one thing to sacrifice population density for a First World per capita GDP, but hell--you're pushing it pretty far .

Yeah, I realize that, in retrospect. But it's a little late to have an additional, uh... seven million people just appear out of nowhere to knock the numbers down to borderline first-world levels...

Actually, while we're on the topic, I've been trying to think of a good excuse to bump up the population a bit with immigrants and what have you. We're not nazi-nationalists, just... paranoid-of-non-Frequesuan-administrations-nationalists.

Does anybody have any plausible ideas?

Steve wrote:Raj, you might want to be a bit more clear on the losses you're taking and the opposition you're up against. The way your campaign is starting to look, it's a tad lopsided.

Well the Regular' in Klavostan field only 16 fighter aircraft; I'm assuming they're all piloted by the Janissary Corps. The Jannasaries Have 5k infantry with associated heavy support. I'm figuring pretty much the entire "Regular" army is actually the Janasaries come to think of it. They are all pretty much fighting. Their problem is the were taken pretty much by surprise by the coup plotters, with perhaps some of their depots being seized early on.

At most I'd say the APS are fielding 1/4 of the merc total tanks and AFV's (30 MBT's 80 AFV's), the rest being used on contracts or by fence sitters. I'd say 5,000 infantry are involved in the coup. Air support wise wise they only manaage to round up 6 Gripen's and 20 Viper gunships.

Basically The Janissary Corps has more heavy equipment, beating out the coup plotters by about 2:1 in tanks and AFV's. This is evened out abit by advanced ATGMs provided to the APS via San Dorado. The two factions have about the same number of infantry.

Klavostan doesn't have that extensive of an air defense network. It seems to consist mainly of 48 units of patriot missiles. Given the probably fucked situation of Klavostans Command and control these wouldn't be operating in a well coordinated fashion I'd Imagine.

Indhopal is committing 12 F-22's 60 Gripen's and about half my bomber force using cruise missiles to the attack, with full AWACS support and limited involvement of cheap as shit drones to draw missile fire. Once the air defenses are down over the target areas (mostly around the capital, no need to waste resources destroying every missile site in the country), my medium bombers and harriers can swoop in to pound the Jannisary Corps to death. I figure I'd loose some aircraft to ground fire with 12 Gripen's destroyed in taking out the air defense, if that sounds reasonable( I am not an expert here. For all I know in this sort of situation I might be able to expect far less losses, or maybe the patriots shred my fighters. I defer to board experts on this one.). For the ground support attacks I don't know what sort of losses would be expected. The Jannasry Corp does have 16 light ADA systems on their rolls.

Overall I would expect pretty light losses given the strategic surprise and nature of the conflict. Besides some special forces sorts to aid in air force targeting, my ground forces aren't involved at all.

Edit: For crap spelling.

Ryan Thunder wrote:Actually, while we're on the topic, I've been trying to think of a good excuse to bump up the population a bit with immigrants and what have you. We're not nazi-nationalists, just... paranoid-of-non-Frequesuan-administrations-nationalists.

Does anybody have any plausible ideas?

Immigrants? Look no further than the Astarian and Sirnothi diasporas. Even though it's been nearly six years after the Pathogen War, I'm pretty sure there are still quite a few Astarians wandering around looking for permanent places to live. Also, few things promote immigration to other countries better than oppressive governments and civil unrest at home.

limited net access right now, by tian xia will contest klavostan. Watch for me when I get back Monday.

Beowulf wrote:limited net access right now, by tian xia will contest klavostan. Watch for me when I get back Monday.

I won't do anything more on that front until you get a chance to respond then.

I hope PeZook doesn't mind me getting my own hands into his slavery storyline the way I did. He did give permission for Langley and PeZookian officials to collude and cooperate with regards to the human trafficking problem, after all.

Carrier capability:

Brazil: Clemenceau, 33,000 tons loaded [from France]
France: Charles de Gaulle, 42,000 tons loaded
Thailand: HTMS Chakri Naruebet, 11,485 tons loaded [did not construct indigenously]
Spain: Príncipe de Asturias (R11), 16,700 tons loaded
Italy: Cavour, 30,000 tons loaded, Garibaldi, 13,850 tons loaded [summary tonnage: ~44 000 tons]
India: Viraat/Centaur, 28,700 tons loaded (purchased from Britain), Vikrant class under construction, 40,000 tons [summary tonnage: ~70 000 tons]
China: Kuznetzov class, 67,500 tons loaded (purchased from f.USSR) [summary tonnage: 67 500 tons]
Russia: Kuznetzov class, 67,500 tons loaded [summary tonnage: 67 500 tons]
USSR: Kuznetzov class x2, 67,500 tons loaded, Kiev class x4, 45,000 tons loaded [summary tonnage: 315 000 tons], Ulyanovsk under construction 80,000 tons would have added it up to 400,000 tons full carrier displacement of the Soviet Navy if the USSR still existed in some form
Britain: Invincible class x3, 20,710 tons loaded [summary tonnage: ~63 000 tons]
USA: 1,200,000 tons full tonnage of carrier fleet (12 flat deck ~100,000 ton carriers).

Look closely here. Which nations, outside of superpowers, can operate carriers at all in any substantial numbers? The CATO and SNC have the ability to use each other's docks and part shipment, etc, as well as having the ports and supply chains to keep the carries seaworthy. A lone isolated island nation won't be able to support nigh the whole Soviet Navy's worth of carriers - unless, of course, that would be the only ships it has at all, and it dedicates their entire budget to support them. Which makes no sense, since without escorts, they are vulnerable and extremely unbalanced as an investment.

I'm afraid that even without any mods in the game, no player in his sane mind will believe in Czech's midget nation, be it first world or even zero world, building carriers of that size.

Ryan Thunder wrote:Actually, while we're on the topic, I've been trying to think of a good excuse to bump up the population a bit with immigrants and what have you. We're not nazi-nationalists, just... paranoid-of-non-Frequesuan-administrations-nationalists.

Does anybody have any plausible ideas?

The CFR is next door, so if cheap labor is what you're looking for, then that's where you could probably get it. Same for the Costa in the west and even the Vineyards to the south. All of them experienced civil unrest recently so you could've gotten lots of refugees from those places. Of course, accommodating a significant population increase (millions of people) is probably going to badly strain your economy, especially when most of 'em are poor refugees who arrive with little more than the clothes on their backs.

Alternatively you could do what Zor did in his Velarian holdings and hand out undeveloped land to immigrants, in your case foreign immigrants. That way you could probably attract better educated people willing to try and make a life for themselves in a stable part of the Frequesuan interior.

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:I hope PeZook doesn't mind me getting my own hands into his slavery storyline the way I did. He did give permission for Langley and PeZookian officials to collude and cooperate with regards to the human trafficking problem, after all.

I just hope he writes more soon. I'm hooked.

My sole Wasp-class LHD is going to be up for sale sometime in the next game-year. The ship is just too impractically big for what I need my amphibious assault ships to do. She was commissioned in 1990, so even though she'll be 26 years old she ought to have a few more years left in her--any takers?

SiegeTank wrote:My sole Wasp-class LHD is going to be up for sale sometime in the next game-year. The ship is just too impractically big for what I need my amphibious assault ships to do. She was commissioned in 1990, so even though she'll be 26 years old she ought to have a few more years left in her--any takers?

Actually hold on to her for awhile. You could use her for sea control mission, like ASW missions.

CmdrWilkens wrote:So as a general note to all:

I've imported the Infobox Country template from the main wikipedia over the SDNWorld wiki. There are a lot of included templates which I did NOT bring over but for basic purposes you shoudl now be able to do a neat sidebar with basic county information (such as ethnicity, government, GDP, area, etc)...now if only someone woudl unlock the front page so we could add nations

Now see, there's a reason for that. A very good reason. Namely, that the mainpage isn't really intended to be "list of all nations". Actually, I'll probably throw up links to the various categories as they get fleshed out. The only reason there are two nations on that thing at all is because, at the time, those were the only pages up. But it's mostly static right now until we get those pages up and running. So...quit yer bitchin'.

BTW, straight ripping from Wikipedia the use of templates, while useful, can lead to a mess. Compare this ugliness to this prettiness. Even then it doesn't quite do what I'd like for it to do in use, but at least the documentation looks good.

So just some information to keep in mind.

EDIT: For templates, use the SDNWorld Template category ( http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/Category ... _Templates ) rather than just regular Category:Templates. Because there's nothing else on the SDNWorld version of the page, whereas the regular templates page has all sorts of default stuff you'd have to scroll through, first.

Raj, what's the purpose of the Indhopali support for the counter-coup? If it's supposedly preventing Klavostan from being drawn into MESS orbit, how does Indhopal know of any Tian Xia links to the new Klavostani government?

Question - it has been some time from when I made the preliminary posts about both a Next generation bomber, and the Turbo-scram-rockets. Would anyone object to a test flight regimen that has an unexpected crash of one of the two prototypes?