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Thanas wrote:
Then let them argue it in here.

Please, for someone who claims to be a Historian you sure are showing a staggering lack of understanding as to how major international agreements were held in that time frame. Telegraphs would not be "enough". At most would you get some kind of consensus that "something" should be done, but certainly not a set of specifics dictated by a country that just spent the last decade annexing Central Europe and Northern Italy. I'm sure that lots of countries would consider it to be a purely humanitarian effort on Germany's part, or that commercial driven countries like Cascadia and the USA would jump at it with no mulling over. There is a whopper of a difference between "yeah that's bad" and "I agree to all the specifics that you mentioned and the prospect of closing off all trade to a market of 300 million 500 million+ appeals to me and my crack team of economic advisers."

The problem is that people are basically ignoring their own in-game histories.

Telegraphs would be enough. And funny, the same people who now object to it had no problem with responding to diplomatic inquiries in the same post when they first boarded the ships. Is there a double standard at work here?

Admittedly, that was for an immediate humor value(two enemies saying the same thing at approximately the same time). If you insist upon it, I think shep would remove it.

If it is a warzone, my ships would have travelled in convoys and with Battleship escort opr simply go straight through the Panama Canal. As would the ships of my ally of China headed for German ports. Since that did not happen, I will refuse to consider it a warzone, especially not the arabian sea. In short, in that scenario there is no possibility of my ships being stopped because they would not go through those waters at all except for under heavy escort.

Nonsense. The Imperial German Navy never had a history of moving stuff around in convoys, and their entire navy was centered around facing down the RN in the North Sea. You don't even have the legs for it, as the navy didn't operate outside of the Med or North Sea on the scale needed to build up training and doctrine for long distant fleet operations. Even with your base in East Africa and oilers for your oil-powered ships(as even dedicated colliers in those days meant dropping anchor somewhere to take on coal) you would still need to pull out some kind of SOFA deal with nearby countries, if only so that your replenishment ships could pull in and gas up.

As for you saying "if it was a war zone no German ships would be traveling singly"...nonsense again. During WW1 American(and Belligerent!) merchant ships traveled into the waters of the British Isles in ones and twos for years, even when explicitly warned of the danger by the German government. No escorts were deployed for the job, as the United States was an ostensibly neutral country. Even if the were no convoys and German merchant vessels typically went the long way, some German ships might just decide it's worth the extra cash to try to pass through the area.

Finally, judging from your very first post on the very first page of the commentary thread...you damn well thought that there was a war going on. Which suggests to me that your avatar in the game certainly would have. I presume that your avatar would have the mental faculties to look at a map, see two major countries going at it, and note that the primary geographic locale where Dominion and Shepistani waters touch would likely be a warzone.

Just my $.02

For the record, if folks we're not currently pissed at want to pull into an Egyptian harbor and bulk up on coal, oil or victuals there, they're free do so -- it'll cost you of course, but we'd be happy to replenish you. Money is money!

Thanas wrote:As an aside, Germany is putting out an offer to all nations with airtech 4. This offer will include the production of aircraft and the retraining of german aircrews.

Chilitina is quite willing to reciprocate given your previous help in the Naval sphere.

Incidentally Brazil didn't agree to all of the points the German chancellor announced, to paraphrase, "Since we don't trade with these guys anyway sure, we'll agree to play outraged and agree to continue doing what we're doing right now." Then possibly using this agreement to extract some concessions re sending socialist prisoners to Brazil or what not. Fairly sure the same applied to what the USSR did.

That said even this would take *at least* two weeks just to get the nod, if you want some kind of formal signature or agreement it'd take a bit longer. This is assuming that the whole issue is something that's been brewing for a while.

Siege wrote:For the record, if folks we're not currently pissed at want to pull into an Egyptian harbor and bulk up on coal, oil or victuals there, they're free do so -- it'll cost you of course, but we'd be happy to replenish you. Money is money!

Interestingly, I commented that there should have been some nations who heard the recommendations and just heard the sounds of cash registers going off in their heads. Someone like Britain is going to make out like a bandit(and thanks to the Pondicherry Enclaves I'm assuming the British are perhaps THE major trading partner with the Grand Dominion). Likewise, Someone like Cascadia may feel an abrupt squeeze as manufacture goods that are cheaper to import into Sumatra are suddenly cut off.

As I said prior, I imagine that the amount of Shepistani/Dominion business in Mongolia, while existent, is fairly low, and that trade to the area from Mongolia is probably also fairly low, as most of Mongolia's trade goes to Europe and East Asia. The Mongolian Marxists would be upset due to the conditions of the proletariat in the respective countries, while the Amalgamated Market Parties have a great deal of connections with German-descended capitalists living in Mongolia, whereas the Mongolian Nationalists just want to try staring down someone to try and effect something. The minor nomad parties just don't care.

Lonestar wrote:Interestingly, I commented that there should have been some nations who heard the recommendations and just heard the sounds of cash registers going off in their heads. Someone like Britain is going to make out like a bandit(and thanks to the Pondicherry Enclaves I'm assuming the British are perhaps THE major trading partner with the Grand Dominion). Likewise, Someone like Cascadia may feel an abrupt squeeze as manufacture goods that are cheaper to import into Sumatra are suddenly cut off.

I see your point, but then the British didn't sign the petition. As for me, I'm getting quite irritated with the situation in the Arabian Sea because if this continues too long people will route their ships through Panama so Suez will lose custom. That is not a desirable situation.

Now, I can't do much about the problem myself, because my fleet is completely unsuited for anti-piracy patrols. However I doubt I do much business with the Dominion or the Shepistani Federation as opposed to Europe (perhaps there's some trade out of Kuwait, but it'll be dwarfed by the volume from the Mediterranean and Red Sea ports), so for me it's easy to sign on, earn some goodwill from trading partners, wait until the Grand Dominion and Shepistan cave under trade pressure, and let that be that. Besides, the Sultanate is about as totalitarian as it gets. I can get away with the little man taking a slight hit.

Siege wrote:
I see your point, but then the British didn't sign the petition.

Yes, I know.

As for me, I'm getting quite irritated with the situation in the Arabian Sea because if this continues too long people will route their ships through Panama so Suez will lose custom. That is not a desirable situation.

Now, I can't do much about the problem myself, because my fleet is completely unsuited for anti-piracy patrols. However I doubt I do much business with the Dominion or the Shepistani Federation as opposed to Europe (perhaps there's some trade out of Kuwait, but it'll be dwarfed by the volume from the Mediterranean and Red Sea ports), so for me it's easy to sign on, earn some goodwill from trading partners, wait until the Grand Dominion and Shepistan cave under trade pressure, and let that be that. Besides, the Sultanate is about as totalitarian as it gets. I can get away with the little man taking a slight hit.

Hmmm.

*twirls mustache*


I wonder, has Germany offered to subsidize any losses you may take if the Gulf of Aden is closed after, after this clear prelude to the war that Germany is agitating for?

Lonestar wrote:I wonder, has Germany offered to subsidize any losses you may take if the Gulf of Aden is closed after, after this clear prelude to the war that Germany is agitating for?

Hehehe, I see where you're going with this... To answer the question: no, they have not. Of course they are pretty important to us considering they build roughly half of our entire dreadnought fleet... But still.

Ah.. Coyote.. the city of Jerusalem is under Egyptian hands...

And Ah.. Lonestar? Will you ever get around to reply to my message?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Ah.. Coyote.. the city of Jerusalem is under Egyptian hands...

And Ah.. Lonestar? Will you ever get around to reply to my message?

Actually, I was going to(I saw it before I went to work yesterday), but when I came home and saw the Byzantine Empire added to the "GIT 'EM" list, I decided to hold off.

Bit of mixed messages, you dig?

And just in case you thought things would be boring outside the Subcontinent....

And I do so love writing sensationalist, almost yellow journalism.

Lonestar wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Ah.. Coyote.. the city of Jerusalem is under Egyptian hands...

And Ah.. Lonestar? Will you ever get around to reply to my message?

Actually, I was going to(I saw it before I went to work yesterday), but when I came home and saw the Byzantine Empire added to the "GIT 'EM" list, I decided to hold off.

Bit of mixed messages, you dig?

Well, it was supposed to be an under the table discussion, with options....

If a deal can be worked out (and I mean, including oil bribes and so forth), I might withdraw from the German proposal.

I'm not quite sure how he is going to bribe you with oil. While India does have its own reserves they are pretty small and India tends to be a net importer of oil. Which will be a small problem seeing as all major oil producers are going to be boycotting him.

I hope Lonestar doesn't need copper much either, as all major exporters of copper are also boycotting him.

Shep is in even worse shape. He is cut off from Iron, Copper, and Lonestar can easily cut him off from Phosphates and coal.

I think you guys are seriously underestimating just how much natural resource production is contained within the boycotting countries.

Edit: typo

Well as long as someone is willing to sell to the embargoed countries the middle men can buy the required goods from anyone they want to. The problem for Shep and Lonestar is prices are liable to get jacked up a lot by said middle men.

Unscrupulous businessmen in the embargoing countries could also just ignore the law, but again that's likely going to be quite expensive.

Dark Hellion wrote:I'm not quite sure how he is going to bribe you with oil. While India does have its own reserves they are pretty small and India tends to be a net importer of oil. Which will be a small problem seeing as all major oil producers are going to be boycotting him.

I hope Lonestar doesn't need copper much either, as all major exporters of copper are also boycotting him.

Shep is in even worse shape. He is cut off from Iron, Copper, and Lonestar can easily cut him off from Phosphates and coal.

I think you guys are seriously underestimating just how much natural resource production is contained within the boycotting countries.

Edit: typo

He stated in an earlier post that he wants to increase his oil strategic reserves.

The USSR won't be helping nations that indulge in piracy, with oil reserves, and since there's a vast multitude of industrialized nations in Europe and Byzantium right next to me, there's plenty of places to export oil to. Besides, some rapproachment with Germany is necessary.

The Southeast Asian Union is a major exporter of rubber, tin, copper, and petroleum. As it stands, I have two choices: Help Germany and the other boycotting nations choke off Shepistan and the Grand Dominion from needed goods, or make a huge profit as one of the few nations willing to do trade with them. Decisions, decisions...

Lonestar wrote:

Thanas wrote:
Then let them argue it in here.

Please, for someone who claims to be a Historian you sure are showing a staggering lack of understanding as to how major international agreements were held in that time frame.

Really?

Telegraphs would not be "enough". At most would you get some kind of consensus that "something" should be done, but certainly not a set of specifics dictated by a country that just spent the last decade annexing Central Europe and Northern Italy. I'm sure that lots of countries would consider it to be a purely humanitarian effort on Germany's part, or that commercial driven countries like Cascadia and the USA would jump at it with no mulling over. There is a whopper of a difference between "yeah that's bad" and "I agree to all the specifics that you mentioned and the prospect of closing off all trade to a market of 300 million 500 million+ appeals to me and my crack team of economic advisers."

The problem is that people are basically ignoring their own in-game histories.

Not at all, actually and so far you arer the only one who feels that way. Coincidence?

Also, you do not have a market of 500 million. You have a market of 125 million, and shep has the same.

Telegraphs would be enough. And funny, the same people who now object to it had no problem with responding to diplomatic inquiries in the same post when they first boarded the ships. Is there a double standard at work here?

Admittedly, that was for an immediate humor value(two enemies saying the same thing at approximately the same time). If you insist upon it, I think shep would remove it.

Ah, so when it is in your interest or for humor, you are of course perfectly willing to ignore such minor things as me not having made any inquiries in game at all.

If it is a warzone, my ships would have travelled in convoys and with Battleship escort opr simply go straight through the Panama Canal. As would the ships of my ally of China headed for German ports. Since that did not happen, I will refuse to consider it a warzone, especially not the arabian sea. In short, in that scenario there is no possibility of my ships being stopped because they would not go through those waters at all except for under heavy escort.

Nonsense. The Imperial German Navy never had a history of moving stuff around in convoys,

....you are of course missing the war of 1864, the war of 1871 and the various hanseatic histories, which all ran strong convoys, though admittedly they were coastal or confined to the Baltic. With the same mindset being applied to long-range shipping - which we have been in the business for the past, oh, 90 or so years, I see no reason to assume your point is valid.

and their entire navy was centered around facing down the RN in the North Sea. You don't even have the legs for it, as the navy didn't operate outside of the Med or North Sea on the scale needed to build up training and doctrine for long distant fleet operations.

Newsflash - my navy is not a 100% analoge to the HSF. In my history, we have conducted extensive operations for over 40 years now all the way from Northern germany to China.

Even with your base in East Africa and oilers for your oil-powered ships(as even dedicated colliers in those days meant dropping anchor somewhere to take on coal) you would still need to pull out some kind of SOFA deal with nearby countries, if only so that your replenishment ships could pull in and gas up.

I have gotten permissions to get even more than that.

As for you saying "if it was a war zone no German ships would be traveling singly"...nonsense again. During WW1 American(and Belligerent!) merchant ships traveled into the waters of the British Isles in ones and twos for years, even when explicitly warned of the danger by the German government. No escorts were deployed for the job, as the United States was an ostensibly neutral country.

The United States is also not Germany and German captains were also very much stricter regulated in what they could or could not do. Of course, your point is moot because no such warning was given. And this is not happening in the territorial waters of your countries, it is happening in international waters.

Even if the were no convoys and German merchant vessels typically went the long way, some German ships might just decide it's worth the extra cash to try to pass through the area.

They wouldn't, because the german government would forbid it and no Reeder would risk loosing his license over that.

Finally, judging from your very first post on the very first page of the commentary thread...you damn well thought that there was a war going on. Which suggests to me that your avatar in the game certainly would have.

Border skirmishes do not equal a war. If there was a naval war, either of you conveniently failed to mention it in your countries histories and this is nothing but an attempt to weasel out of this.

I presume that your avatar would have the mental faculties to look at a map, see two major countries going at it, and note that the primary geographic locale where Dominion and Shepistani waters touch would likely be a warzone.

Just my $.02

And I presume you will not continue this laughable excuse any longer.

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:The Southeast Asian Union is a major exporter of rubber, tin, copper, and petroleum. As it stands, I have two choices: Help Germany and the other boycotting nations choke off Shepistan and the Grand Dominion from needed goods, or make a huge profit as one of the few nations willing to do trade with them. Decisions, decisions...

The questions you should be asking is - who is less likely to mess with your nation in the future and who is in fact a far more wealthier customer that poses no threat to your regional dominance?

And if we let him get away with this, do you think this will actually do anything positive for the future of the game?

Thanas wrote:

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:The Southeast Asian Union is a major exporter of rubber, tin, copper, and petroleum. As it stands, I have two choices: Help Germany and the other boycotting nations choke off Shepistan and the Grand Dominion from needed goods, or make a huge profit as one of the few nations willing to do trade with them. Decisions, decisions...

The questions you should be asking is - who is less likely to mess with your nation in the future and who is in fact a far more wealthier customer that poses no threat to your regional dominance?

And if we let him get away with this, do you think this will actually do anything positive for the future of the game?

Except that if he is such a secure trading partner then Shep and Lonestar are less likely to engage in hostilities meanwhile he will have done nothing to impinge on the spheres of other nations which gives us no cause against him. He has his rights within the concept of absolute sovereignty to act just as he is doing and should another nation attempt to bully him in to it then THAT would be a kerfluffle where the SAU would be in the right and probably get assistance from others.

I would also like to say that even those nations who didn't respond could very well have done so because they didn't have time to respond yet. So we don't know yet if Britain is going to be in it or not. Also once more, assuming each country has a history then I'm pretty sure the Old Dominion and Shepistan have a long, long history of being dicks, so this latest thing is just the straw that breaks the camels back.

As for the SAU the rest of you could simply *outbid* Shepistan and the Old Dominion for the SAU's resources, even if you lose the bidding war you'll still massively drive up the cost for both Shepistan and the Old Dominion.

Thanas wrote:

Not at all, actually and so far you arer the only one who feels that way. Coincidence?

Actually, no I'm not. Beowulf and Shep felt the same way. So did Steve when I pointed it out to him. I suspect that some people also agree to it once pointed out, but are so used to modern 21st Century communications they have a problem reconciling it.

Also, you do not have a market of 500 million. You have a market of 125 million, and shep has the same.

As I was, I was thinking of some earlier proposals Stave had mentioned to me in IM(specifically, about India and China getting some kind of special modifiers). I was also including both Shepistan and the Grand Dominion.

Ah, so when it is in your interest or for humor, you are of course perfectly willing to ignore such minor things as me not having made any inquiries in game at all.

So, they don't have Comedic license from where you're from? As I said, if you insist upon it, It'll be removed.

....you are of course missing the war of 1864, the war of 1871 and the various hanseatic histories, which all ran strong convoys, though admittedly they were coastal or confined to the Baltic. With the same mindset being applied to long-range shipping - which we have been in the business for the past, oh, 90 or so years, I see no reason to assume your point is valid.

I repeated:

The IMPERIAL GERMAN NAVY (not the Kingdom of Prussia navy, German Confederation, etc.) Has no history of convoys. While they did "convoy" in a sense by steaming the High Seas Fleet up and down the North Sea, convoying merchant ships over very long distances was historically something the Anglos did in modern time. Comparing moving around the Baltic, during the pre-modern naval era, with long distance convoying of the type that the British and Americans did is silly.

Newsflash - my navy is not a 100% analoge to the HSF. In my history, we have conducted extensive operations for over 40 years now all the way from Northern germany to China.

You've conducted large fleet operations all the way to China Or the Indian Ocean? Or just squadron strength?

I have gotten permissions to get even more than that.

yeah, okay.

The United States is also not Germany and German captains were also very much stricter regulated in what they could or could not do. Of course, your point is moot because no such warning was given. And this is not happening in the territorial waters of your countries, it is happening in international waters.

They wouldn't, because the german government would forbid it and no Reeder would risk loosing his license over that.

Never, as they say, is a big word.

Border skirmishes do not equal a war. If there was a naval war, either of you conveniently failed to mention it in your countries histories and this is nothing but an attempt to weasel out of this.

It's funny that you're accusing me of attempting to "weasel out" of something when you're denying your statement on the first page of this commentary thread where you thought that War had already broken out,

And I presume you will not continue this laughable excuse any longer.

You obviously don't know me too well.

Lonestar? Roleplaying another player's assets without their consent? I was wondering how long it'd be before either him or Beowulf did it.

Lonestar wrote: Actually, no I'm not. Beowulf and Shep felt the same way. So did Steve when I pointed it out to him. I suspect that some people also agree to it once pointed out, but are so used to modern 21st Century communications they have a problem reconciling it.

The problem is that the time freeze was never fully recognized, so frankly at planned time passage a month or so of time would have passed, so his note would stand in light of that.


That is an endemic part of the problem; some people were charging ahead because they didn't notice the freeze. Next time I'm posting it in the story thread.

The IMPERIAL GERMAN NAVY (not the Kingdom of Prussia navy, German Confederation, etc.) Has no history of convoys. While they did "convoy" in a sense by steaming the High Seas Fleet up and down the North Sea, convoying merchant ships over very long distances was historically something the Anglos did in modern time. Comparing moving around the Baltic, during the pre-modern naval era, with long distance convoying of the type that the British and Americans did is silly.

And as the German player he is well within his rights to have a policy of convoying in war zones. Which is frankly why you and Shep should've asked before indulging in this.

Never, as they say, is a big word.

Given the consequences - losing one's job for isntance, not to mention the risks of crossing a war zone - it would indeed be a major deterrent.

It's funny that you're accusing me of attempting to "weasel out" of something when you're denying your statement on the first page of this commentary thread where you thought that War had already broken out,

Weasel out of nothing, it was a one-off remark to someone asked when wars would start, and you and Shep had already lobbed artillery shells. That does not necessarily reflect IC knowledge.

It is not his fault that you and Shep have failed to actually post your full histories or any other kind of indication of what's going on between you two, especially as important as something like, oh, an undeclared naval war? Nor is it his fault that you just picked a ship to pick on without consulting the relevant PC and are now demanding that said player's stated policies not be in place because they would force you to change things.

You obviously don't know me too well.

Ignoring this because it's time to get the game moving on, but suffice to say I will become displeased if dickery from OOC arguments begins to effect in-game activities.

To solve all this without a retcon, the SS Mecklemburg was a German-owned ship... from Cascadia, and thus flagged there and not under German authority. Hence the captain did not obey German state instructions to avoid the Arabian sea, much to his chagrin.

And in light of the fact that about a month has passed in-game since the initial extortions and then the sinking, the note will stand.