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I think people will be less angry with the depiction of Luke if Rian Johnson showed how Luke went from an idealistic person that refuses to believe his father was lost to the dark side forever, even when Leia is advising him not to, to a person so frightened about his nephew falling to the dark side for a split second.

Because that itself is a character arc of his own. Did Luke became more cynical as he grew older? Etc.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: 2017-12-20 07:10pm He wrote three of those books Yoda wanted to burn and helped found the Republic, but despite his wisdom those fools kept pushing him to the side, marginalizing him, mocking him! until he left in disgrace to watch in bitterness as their much vaunted temples and government rose on a pillar of hubris destined to shatter.

Sounds cool but if the Jedi ran with it for a thousand generations, or even just the last 1000 years since the last big war, they did pretty damn good. The whole idea of "I'm right and they'll only get a thousand years or so until it all comes crashing down" is a bit hollow.

I see Rian Johnson is going to make a Bond movie where 007 becomes a pacifist teetotaler who drives a Camry, no longer gambles and has no interest whatsoever in stopping bad guys or banging hot chicks.

In retrospect, we probably should have seen a lot of this coming. Rian Johnson's also known for directing Looper which, if I remember correctly, is a movie where the explanation of how time travel works basically boils down to "Shut up, nerd."

Galvatron wrote: 2017-12-20 03:50pm Despite all my theories, I'm less disappointed in Rey's origin than I am with Snoke's. I feel like they NEED to explain his rise to power in the same way the prequels explained Palpatine's.

I don't think anyone needed the prequels for anything.

Okay, maybe not three movies worth of political bullshit, but SOMETHING. Even a passing line about how he was some exiled dark Jedi marooned on some world in the Unknown Regions before he was found by what was left of the Empire. Our imaginations can do the rest.

The prequels weren't even mostly political bullshit, they were mostly just bad. As for a passing line - look - if its such a minor issue a passing line resolves it, it's really not worth worrying about.

Galvatron wrote: 2017-12-20 03:50pm Despite all my theories, I'm less disappointed in Rey's origin than I am with Snoke's. I feel like they NEED to explain his rise to power in the same way the prequels explained Palpatine's.

Okay, maybe not three movies worth of political bullshit, but SOMETHING. Even a passing line about how he was some exiled dark Jedi marooned on some world in the Unknown Regions before he was found by what was left of the Empire. Our imaginations can do the rest.

They didn't need to explain anything about Snoke because he ULTIMATELY WASN"T IMPORTANT.

Which seems to have pissed people off more, but I had no problem with him being killed off without any effort.

LadyTevar wrote: 2017-12-20 11:01pm

Galvatron wrote: 2017-12-20 03:50pm Despite all my theories, I'm less disappointed in Rey's origin than I am with Snoke's. I feel like they NEED to explain his rise to power in the same way the prequels explained Palpatine's.

Okay, maybe not three movies worth of political bullshit, but SOMETHING. Even a passing line about how he was some exiled dark Jedi marooned on some world in the Unknown Regions before he was found by what was left of the Empire. Our imaginations can do the rest.

They didn't need to explain anything about Snoke because he ULTIMATELY WASN"T IMPORTANT.

Which seems to have pissed people off more, but I had no problem with him being killed off without any effort.

But he's central to the entire plot. Without his temptation of Ben Solo, none of this even happens. That makes him important.

Elfdart wrote: 2017-12-20 08:51pm I see Rian Johnson is going to make a Bond movie where 007 becomes a pacifist teetotaler who drives a Camry, no longer gambles and has no interest whatsoever in stopping bad guys or banging hot chicks.

aka the Timothy Dalton Bond movies

Rogue 9 wrote: 2017-12-20 11:46pm

LadyTevar wrote: 2017-12-20 11:01pm

Galvatron wrote: 2017-12-20 03:50pm Despite all my theories, I'm less disappointed in Rey's origin than I am with Snoke's. I feel like they NEED to explain his rise to power in the same way the prequels explained Palpatine's.

Okay, maybe not three movies worth of political bullshit, but SOMETHING. Even a passing line about how he was some exiled dark Jedi marooned on some world in the Unknown Regions before he was found by what was left of the Empire. Our imaginations can do the rest.

They didn't need to explain anything about Snoke because he ULTIMATELY WASN"T IMPORTANT.

Which seems to have pissed people off more, but I had no problem with him being killed off without any effort.

But he's central to the entire plot. Without his temptation of Ben Solo, none of this even happens. That makes him important.

exactly. we don't need to know his species, birthday, what he was doing under the empire, etc. But the movie did need to touch more on the relationship between Ben and Snoke and how it intersected with Luke, that somehow Snoke had already "turned his heart" so killing Ben was the first option, when even Vader was worthy of redemption

Now that he appears to be dead, I wouldn't be surprised if a younger Snoke pops up in the OT-era EU as some middling Imperial Inquisitor who worked for Vader and merely survived the collapse of the Empire. After all, look at what Maul was able to accomplish on his own before Palpatine smacked him down.

Snoke could be nothing more than the Jerec of the new canon.

ray245 wrote: 2017-12-20 08:21pm I think people will be less angry with the depiction of Luke if Rian Johnson showed how Luke went from an idealistic person that refuses to believe his father was lost to the dark side forever, even when Leia is advising him not to, to a person so frightened about his nephew falling to the dark side for a split second.

Because that itself is a character arc of his own. Did Luke became more cynical as he grew older? Etc.

No, it's a character flaw that he never overcame.

Making poor decisions driven by fear is a constant of Luke's character in ESB (the cave, he lashes out in fear at an emblem of the dark side and then sees it as his own fate for doing so, then he leaves for Bespin out of fear and loses his hand, fails to save his friends and has to be saved by them), and then in RotJ he shows in the throne room that he hasn't actually developed beyond that when Vader tauns him about his sister, his fear overcomes him and he starts lashing out in anger. If he'd killed Vader then he would have been lost to the dark side there and then, only seeing again the consequences of his actions let him pull back as he inflicts a matching wound on Vader that he suffered the last time.

So actually "Luke makes grave error out of fear" is a well established part of his character and the event in the series that should have brought him to the consequences of doing so did not actually stop it happening again.

PREDATOR490 wrote: 2017-12-18 02:12pm Somehow Snookes ship was the one tracking the Rebel fleet even though it was not present to see them jump.

We don't know how many ships were tracking the Rebel fleet. All we have is a guess and a plan that failed before we found out if the guess was correct.

Ray pulls the location of this chase out of nowhere and somehow the Millennium Falcon piloted by Chewie is able to jump across the galaxy straight at the FO fleet to drop off Ray.

Maybe Kylo gave her the location through the mind link. He had enough notice that she was coming to get all those stormtroopers into formation.

bilateralrope wrote: 2017-12-21 05:10am

Ray pulls the location of this chase out of nowhere and somehow the Millennium Falcon piloted by Chewie is able to jump across the galaxy straight at the FO fleet to drop off Ray.

Maybe Kylo gave her the location through the mind link. He had enough notice that she was coming to get all those stormtroopers into formation.

If only the series had a precedent for Jedi knowing exactly where to go based on nothing more than the Force..

Oh wait that's how Luke knew to go to Cloud City in ESB.

Rogue 9 wrote: 2017-12-20 11:46pm But he's central to the entire plot. Without his temptation of Ben Solo, none of this even happens. That makes him important.

He's not central to the entire plot, he's merely a central figure of events related to the plot - events from before the plot takes place. The Emperor in the OT was similarly "important", but that doesn't make expository dialog about his history with Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker a valuable use of the film's time.

Snoke's only purpose in the plot is to die in order to serve Ben Solo and Rey's development.

In all the complaining about how Snoke's relationship to Ben is somehow not sufficiently explained, I've not heard anything about what exactly would satisfy. IMO, nothing really would. Endlessly explaining something is - as the prequels showed us - a matter of diminishing returns. It's never as interesting as you imagine it to be, and it is not advancing the story actually being told. It's just too backward looking.

Forgot about this:

Ender wrote: 2017-12-15 11:41am The primary difference with RotJ is that in Jedi, that Anakin fell is all that matters, the how is not pertinent to the plot (his redemption).

How Kylo Ren fell is a pretty fucking major part of the story in TLJ. Like, it is the big twist of it. And that Snoke has "already turned his heart" goes to the core of it. We need to know what happened there - what made Ben someone who needed immediate execution before he did anything when even Vader was worthy of redemption. What was that corruption so much worse than the Emperor's malign influence on Anakin? Which means we need to know more about Snoke in general and his relationship to Been in particular.

And we don't know.

How Kylo Ren fell is a major part of the story in TLJ only in the sense that we see the moment it happens in order to explain Luke's self-imposed exile. In so far as both TFA and TLJ is concerned - that Kylo Ren fell is what is driving the story, just as it was with Darth Vader.

And we're told straight out what made Luke - just for a moment - think of murderning Ben. He tells us straight out why he thought of doing it. How exactly this came to be - beyond Snoke influencing Ben (probably telepathically, we can safely infer) adds nothing to the story.

Also, that Snoke was involved in turning Ben is not new information. Leia said this to Han in TFA, too.

The more I think about this film, the less I like it and the angrier I get.

I felt that way about TFA. Since Rogue One, I've decided to leave post-Endor to the idiots and worry about the Han Solo movie.

Knife wrote: 2017-12-20 08:22pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: 2017-12-20 07:10pm He wrote three of those books Yoda wanted to burn and helped found the Republic, but despite his wisdom those fools kept pushing him to the side, marginalizing him, mocking him! until he left in disgrace to watch in bitterness as their much vaunted temples and government rose on a pillar of hubris destined to shatter.

Sounds cool but if the Jedi ran with it for a thousand generations, or even just the last 1000 years since the last big war, they did pretty damn good. The whole idea of "I'm right and they'll only get a thousand years or so until it all comes crashing down" is a bit hollow.

Exactly. Their success drives his bitter resentment, the only thing that kept him going these last 25000 years or so. He just had to be around to have the last laugh. The Galaxy is finally ready to accept its purpose in Snoke's order, the First Order.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: 2017-12-20 07:10pm He wrote three of those books Yoda wanted to burn

Snark aside, Rey has those books at the end, you see them as they're putting Finn to bed. "There is no wisdom in there the girl does not already have" means Yoda was quite aware of that.

Mark Hamil's comment about the characterisation of Luke:

https://www.inverse.com/article/39643-s ... ark-hamill

I said to Rian, ‘Jedi don’t give up.’ I mean, even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup. But if he made a mistake, he would try and right that wrong. So, right there we had a fundamental difference, but it’s not my story anymore. It’s somebody else’s story – and Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective. …That’s the crux of my problem. Luke would never say that. I’m sorry. Well, in this version, see I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars.

“This is the next generation of Star Wars, so I almost had to think of Luke as another character,” he continued. “Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker. He’s not my Luke Skywalker, but I had to do what Rian wanted me to do because it serves the story well.”

So yes, those people who disagreed with Rian Johnson's interpretation of Luke are making a valid argument. People don't have to accept Disney's interpretation of the old characters, especially when it's all about replacing the old characters with the new and BETTER! characters.

I mean Mark is quite entitled to his opinion, but the evidence of the movies he was in is that Jedi give up pretty easily, and going and hiding in the ass end of nowhere and refusing a new apprentice is accepted practice when you fucked up and accidentally made a Dark Side wunderkind who killed all the Jedi.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-21 02:48pm I mean Mark is quite entitled to his opinion, but the evidence of the movies he was in is that Jedi give up pretty easily, and going and hiding in the ass end of nowhere and refusing a new apprentice is accepted practice when you fucked up and accidentally made a Dark Side wunderkind who killed all the Jedi.

Because the person rebuilding the Jedi Order isn't Luke, but Rey.

F.U.C.K. Last Jedi. Seriously, who wrote this fuck? That dick should be force choked and skewered with a lightsaber!!!

Random shit off the top of my head that pisses me off, will collect my thoughts at a later post:
- Ackbar died without saying "it's a trap": come on how hard is that to write that in the scene?
- Hyperspace tracking. Was never explained.
- The initial space battle. Who the fuck designed those bombers? They move SLOW LIKE FUCK. Seriously, who the fuck designed it? And how does ONE fucking bomber destroy AN ENTIRE dreadnaught? Do they not have shields?
- Superwomen Leia flies through space. SERIOUSLY WTF. Leia doesn't have Jedi training right? Can Jedi even fly through space????
- The chase scene. This is like the BIGGEST FUCKING DICKHOLE. Does the First Order not have more ships to surround the Mon Cal cruiser? Can you not sent a few ships to micro-jump ahead and trap them? Why the fuck can Mon Cal cruisers outrun everything the First Order have? Why did they need to pull back their fighters when most of the Mon Cal's fighters were blown up? And what's with the hyperspace manveuer that the end that blew up Snoke's flagship? Why didn't they do this with the other 3 smaller frigates?
- The entire side-trip to the casino really was pointless.
- The ending was really bad. The rebels are fucked. Where are their allies? Is everyone on the Falcon it? Are we expecting a 10-year time jump for episode 9? Seriously, WHO THE FUCK is left in the entire galaxy? Did Starkiller base wipe out the entire New Republic? It's like Washington DC got nuked and suddenly, all of American military power vanishes. Now replace Washington DC gets nuked with the capital worlds of New Republic gets blown up... so where are the other republic forces?? Unless you are telling me they cluster ALL their forces on the capital planets???????
- Is Snoke dead? HE CAN'T BE DEAD. I've seen a few theories that he's still alive, that his dead body was a projection and that Rey/Kylo are still linked, so Snoke should still be alive. You CANT continue the story with brat teenger Kylo Loser as the main villain. Why wasn't Snoke backstory explained?!! And if Snoke and Luke is dead, WHO THE FUCK DO WE HAVE LEFT? One loser teenager emo loser, and one untrained chick. Fuck this shit man!!!!
- Ditto for Rey. Isn't she Luke's daughter? Her parents are not some no-named junkers, it has to be a feint. If her parents are really nobody, i.e. not from the Solo/Skywalker/Kenobi lineage (which is all major theories), someone has to lose his/her head for this.

This fucking star wars sequel trilogy is going the way of Andromeda (Season 3-4) right now.

Seriously the ONLY redeeming quality about this movie are the Porgs. WTF.

Fuck Rian Johnson. I hope you get mugged on the streets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't seen the film yet, but I'm far more offended by you advocating physical violence against a man for making a movie you didn't like, than anything he could possibly have done in the film. You're the kind of person who gives fandom a bad name.

Fuck AndroAsc, you entitled piece of shit.

Pretty sure, he's just trolling. I remember a hilarious post after TFA complaining that the Falcon was called Garbage and not a piece of junk like in ANH.

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-12-21 04:18pm Pretty sure, he's just trolling. I remember a hilarious post after TFA complaining that the Falcon was called Garbage and not a piece of junk like in TFA.

Still stupid and offensive, still the kind of person who gives fandom a bad name.

I mean, honestly, even if I hate the movie, that kind of comment makes me want to see it twice, just to flip that kind of fan the bird.