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HemlockGrey wrote:I heard somewhere that the difference between prequel duels and OT duels could be explained as a result of Vader and Obi/Yoda adopting different, more conservative fighting styles in the 20 intervening years. I don't remember if it was a canon source or just some post on this board, though.

I find that probably since Obi did indead take a more defensive form starting some time after TPM and show both in AotC and RotS. Yoda being in hiding would probably have plenty of time and motivation to adopt such a style too.

Vympel wrote:But what's the armor going to do? Actually protect him more? From what? Lightsabres? Not likely. Other weapons? For all we know thicker or more armor would've simply slowed him down, and the armor he was equipped with was described in the novelization as being able to withstand a fighter laser cannon (probably hyperbole but it's indicative of a point).

Just adding a piece of metal and bolting it on at the front would have made all the difference, or just so that one could not have gotten ones hands in there so easily and put pressure on a weak point.

Personally they should have gone with more bulk and power, like a Dark Trooper suit but without having to waste space on a whole biological being inside.

The only glaring weakness in Grievous design seems to be his chest plates, and even then, Obi-Wan pulled it open when one was already loose. That's extremely unlikely to happen in most battle situations, especially with a Jedi, who would normally be equipped with a lightsabre.

Yeah and just look behind the plates, the guy's internal organs just hang there in a bag of syntflesh surrounded by flimsy armor, a stray bolt could have slipped in the gaps at any time in combat, maybe taking the time to add 5% more mass for armoring the synthbag itself would have made all the difference.

An energy field over his arms that prevented lightsabre strikes from cutting? How do you even know they can implement that on his arms? Those electrostaffs were quite thick you know. And besides, didn't Obi-Wan disable his hands, not his arms?

As I heard it was the material in the staffs, not some energy field.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

Pure Sabacc wrote:

Technological advancement is obviously still going on in that time -compare Anakin's rather obviously mechanical replacement hand to Luke's "I can't believe it's not my hand" limb.

It has long been established that technological advancement of any significant level could not take place in 20 years in a civilization that has existed for more than 25,000 years. The changes are most likely stylistic, or done for changing utility, not new technology.

Yes. The only real difference is that Anakin's arm isn't designed with skin.

And Luke's has the ability to sense pain. I read elsewhere in this thread that Anakin stuck his mechanical arm through a ray shield. Did he suffer ill effects or pain? Was that sensation deliberately removed?

Darth Wong wrote:It seems more likely to me that he simply got a new vessel and gave it the same name for sentimental reasons. A "refit" that significantly alters the actual proportions of various parts of the hull, engines, etc. is such an absurdly difficult undertaking that it would probably be easier to simply build a new ship.

Either Bail or Leia; I'd buy that. But why wouldn't it be called the Tantive V?

Dalton wrote:And Luke's has the ability to sense pain. I read elsewhere in this thread that Anakin stuck his mechanical arm through a ray shield. Did he suffer ill effects or pain? Was that sensation deliberately removed?

According to the novel it is implied he did not have any pain sensors, when his arm is hurting even below the place it was severed(because of some weird force/ghost limb effect) Obi-Wan wonders if he had pain sensors installed.

By that token it seems the ability to feel pain is just an option.

Vader was in definite pain in ROTJ though when his cyborg arm was cut off by Luke.

Dalton wrote:And Luke's has the ability to sense pain. I read elsewhere in this thread that Anakin stuck his mechanical arm through a ray shield. Did he suffer ill effects or pain?

If that's regarding what occured in Clone Wars, then yes, he did. Anakin was screaming to holy hell.

I don't think Luke's hand is really any more advanced than either of Anakin's arms, just with different design philosophies and applications involved.

*nods* Alright, conceded then.

Vympel wrote:

Personally I think Grievous was built with intentional design flaws, I see no reason he could not have gotten a bulkier, more powerfull and armored body without sacrifcing any speed or agility, but had he done that no jedi would have been able to take him on, least of all Obi-Wan.
Grievous needed to be killable.

I don't think that's very likely. Sending Obi-Wan to Utapau was precisely in line with Darth Sidious plans, in that whatever happened, he would win- General Grievous kills Obi-Wan? Good. Obi-Wan kills Grievous? Good, Grievous would have to be knocked off eventually anyway, and Obi-Wan is still going to get shot in the back by Clonetroopers. Greivous (at that point) served to seperate Anakin from Obi-Wan, so it was all win-win for the Sith. This is all in the novelization. In essence, to suggest that he was built intentionally flawed so that Jedi could kill him is very far-fetched- the Separatists wouldn't want that in the first place, and IIRC they paid for him. I don't see how more armor would've made him anything more but slower- a lightsabre would still have disarmed him.

It would've been cool to see if Obi-Wan had been killed by Grievous, what would have happened? I suspect Grievous would still run away from the forces of Commander Cody, escape to Mustafar- where Darth Vader would promptly deal with him.

Didn't Palaptine want Anakin to go and kill Grievous? He seems to imply that in the novel.

Was anyone else aware of the lack of pace of Grevious in his duel with Obi-wan (at least, compared to how quick Grevious is in the Clone Wars cartoon)?.

Could it be that he'd suffered damage by that point, or was suffering from general wear and tear that had slowed him enough, just enough, for a single Jedi to defeat him?

The Original Nex wrote:

Vympel wrote:

Personally I think Grievous was built with intentional design flaws, I see no reason he could not have gotten a bulkier, more powerfull and armored body without sacrifcing any speed or agility, but had he done that no jedi would have been able to take him on, least of all Obi-Wan.
Grievous needed to be killable.

I don't think that's very likely. Sending Obi-Wan to Utapau was precisely in line with Darth Sidious plans, in that whatever happened, he would win- General Grievous kills Obi-Wan? Good. Obi-Wan kills Grievous? Good, Grievous would have to be knocked off eventually anyway, and Obi-Wan is still going to get shot in the back by Clonetroopers. Greivous (at that point) served to seperate Anakin from Obi-Wan, so it was all win-win for the Sith. This is all in the novelization. In essence, to suggest that he was built intentionally flawed so that Jedi could kill him is very far-fetched- the Separatists wouldn't want that in the first place, and IIRC they paid for him. I don't see how more armor would've made him anything more but slower- a lightsabre would still have disarmed him.

It would've been cool to see if Obi-Wan had been killed by Grievous, what would have happened? I suspect Grievous would still run away from the forces of Commander Cody, escape to Mustafar- where Darth Vader would promptly deal with him.

Didn't Palaptine want Anakin to go and kill Grievous? He seems to imply that in the novel.

Yes, that's true in the movie also. I can't remember the dialogue exactly, but Anakin says that the Chancellor wished that he would lead the campaign, but Mace says that the Council makes up its own mind.

I was under the impression that Palpatine figured that the Council would deny that request, and he was just trying to drive another stake between Anakin and the Jedi.

Lord Poe wrote:Hmm... I just realized we can finally put to rest that astute notion that SW humans are born with metal plates grafted to their skeletons by examining Mace Windu once the Emperor unleashes on him...

I noticed that too. Did you notice whether or not palpy had the "X-ray" effect when he was hit? How about Yoda?

Also, its curious to compare this to when Dooku blasted Anakin in AOTC: I don't recall the "X-ray effect" then either.

Lord Poe wrote:Hmm... I just realized we can finally put to rest that astute notion that SW humans are born with metal plates grafted to their skeletons by examining Mace Windu once the Emperor unleashes on him...

That's what I said to myself when Mace was getting the shock treatment.

Also, its curious to compare this to when Dooku blasted Anakin in AOTC: I don't recall the "X-ray effect" then either.

Perhaps it simply has to do with the amount of energy being pumped into the blast.

His Divine Shadow wrote: Just adding a piece of metal and bolting it on at the front would have made all the difference, or just so that one could not have gotten ones hands in there so easily and put pressure on a weak point.

If that's all you mean, then yes it's a pretty shitty design.

Personally they should have gone with more bulk and power, like a Dark Trooper suit but without having to waste space on a whole biological being inside.

Would it be fast enough to fight a Jedi though?

Yeah and just look behind the plates, the guy's internal organs just hang there in a bag of syntflesh surrounded by flimsy armor, a stray bolt could have slipped in the gaps at any time in combat, maybe taking the time to add 5% more mass for armoring the synthbag itself would have made all the difference.

I don't think he was designed to fight anything other than Jedi, really. That's the best rationalization for why he's normally vulnerable to mass blaster fire.

As I heard it was the material in the staffs, not some energy field.

RotS novelization, they generate an energy field of some kind.

Sorry if I seem dense, but what's this about Star Wars humans being born with metal grafts on their skeletons?!

Has to do with a debate with DarkStar. I was able to force him to conclude that SW humans were born with natural metal in their skeletons in a debate over Vader's x-rays.

Vympel wrote:

His Divine Shadow wrote: Just adding a piece of metal and bolting it on at the front would have made all the difference, or just so that one could not have gotten ones hands in there so easily and put pressure on a weak point.

If that's all you mean, then yes it's a pretty shitty design.

AFAIK it was mostly "closed" up.. Obi-Wan just yanked it apart (which really doesn't tell us much, since he could have used Forcee-assisted strength.. he fought hand to hand against Jango in AOTC too FFS...)

What they probably should have done was just welded those two parts together so they couldn't be separated like that. However, it strikes me that this was done for purely asthetic purposes (to make him look all skeletal and scary..) and it was probably deemed unliekly anyone would actually hit him. (unless they were a Jedi, who don't normally use blasters...)

EDIT: And even then, it took nearly half a dozen bolts to actually do him in... so arguably its only a weakness if the opponent continues to pelt him with sustained fire over a short period of time.. a stray "lucky" shot or two, while harmful, is probably not goign to be fatal.

Just a minor observation.... for ObiWan to be using force-enhanced strength, he didn't seem to do much damage to Grievious when hitting him with his fists, but ObiWan DID recoil with pain after hitting the metal plates.

In fact, the only instance I remember of this force-enhanced strength is Mace Windu punching Battle Droids on the Clone Wars cartoon.... wich, of course, is a bit exaggerated. Yes, Vader did some impressive strength feats on the Original Trilogy, but let's remember he had cybernetic arms.

Lord Poe wrote:
Hmm... I just realized we can finally put to rest that astute notion that SW humans are born with metal plates grafted to their skeletons by examining Mace Windu once the Emperor unleashes on him...


I noticed that too. Did you notice whether or not palpy had the "X-ray" effect when he was hit? How about Yoda?

Also, its curious to compare this to when Dooku blasted Anakin in AOTC: I don't recall the "X-ray effect" then either.

Maybe the X-ray effect was visible only becuase of the metal plates in vader?

JointStrikeFighter wrote:Maybe the X-ray effect was visible only becuase of the metal plates in vader?

The X-ray effect was also visible on Mace Windu

Regarding clonetroop numbers, uniforms and colour pallettes

This may have been already stated, didnt have time to read ll those spoiler topics yet but:

IIRC, in AOTC a number of 1.2 million number of units was thrown. Offcourse, if we take 1 clone = 1 unit, we would end up with a rediculous small army so it was already suspected 1 unit = a larger group of clonetroopers. Now seen ROTS, apart from other uniforms, you could also notice they had different color palletes in their armor (blue, orange, red,...) so I'm fairly sure that one unit is a whole invasion force
example:
- army joining Obi Wan (orange pallette): 1 unit
- army reinforcing the Wookies: 1 unit
- armies we saw during "order 66": all different units

so imo 1 unit is (give or take) a handfull of acclamators/venators and all the troops and equipment in it, or in other words: a small army


That way, we get a more realistic number of troops for a galaxy spanning civilisation with millions of planets.

Offcourse, that makes it hard to believe these were all created at a single planet

I request that those involved in the discussion regarding Grievous' chest plates watch the movie again and view the events that occur shortly before Obi-Wan pries the plates apart: Grievous is lying prone on the landing platform, and Obi-Wan smashes the MagnaGuard electro-staff down on the torso plates, with what looked like enough force to break Grievous in two, outright. That's clearly when the armor plates were loosened.
Were you to pay attention to every single move, suspending your disbelief, (pretending that the outcome was not predetermined as in an unchanging movie), you'd think that that move might have ended the fight right there.

Note also that General Grievous is a command unit, an officer. His primary role is making strategic and tactical decisions for the droid armies rather than to engage in direct combat. His Jedi hunting activities are merely a dangerous sport he indulged in.. one that ultimately led to his demise.


The X-ray effect when hit by Sith Lightning possibly depends not only on the intensity of the attack, but the actual effect on the victim; the effect can be lessened through some defensive application of the Force.
For example, Mace was reeling from the loss of a hand while Yoda was able to steel himself somewhat although he was initially suprised. Luke was also described to have figured out that an attack generated by the Force could be defended against with the same.
As for Vader.. he was either unprepared, tired from the duel with Luke, unable to protect himself, or any combination of the above.


Edit:
Regarding the Tantive IV, I find it incredibly stupid that they went out of their way to recreate a physical set of the white entrance hallway in the ship (Bail meets Obi-Wan at the same in III, Vader steps through the door in IV), but totally changed the exterior appearance of the ship, considering it's just CGI!

Cykeisme wrote:Regarding the Tantive IV, I find it incredibly stupid that they went out of their way to recreate a physical set of the white entrance hallway in the ship (Bail meets Obi-Wan at the same in III, Vader steps through the door in IV), but totally changed the exterior appearance of the ship, considering it's just CGI!

That's beyond me as well. However, I think it's possible that the people making the CG model didn't have the actual ANH blockade runner model to use as reference as it was included in the "Art of Star Wars" travelling tour exhibition. I hope, but I know it will never happen, that they change the CG model and make changes (such as the round sensor dish) to a CG model with the proper proportions for the DVD release. I mean, both the Tantive IV and the Death Star are so iconic and they both looks a bit off in ROTS. On the other hand, perhaps I'm just being nit-picky.

Regarding the Astromech fit problem in the Eta-2, on several reproductions of the craft (Revell model kit, Hasbro toy and Titanium Series craft [damn close to 1:72]), there seem to be a pair of boxes underneath the wings, corresponding with the droid socket. Could this be the "pocket dimension" discussed, and that the droid simply sits in a bucket?

EDIT: The portside box is barely visible in the Eta-2 cutaway in the ICS.

IIRC in film the lower part of astromech is visible under the hull on Eta-2s