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I think the more pertinent question to ponder about is Revan's intentions during the war. He was noted in KOTOR II to have simply conquered but left the military and civilian infrastructure intact, contrasting that against Malak's wanton destruction. He appears he intended to absorb the Republic, and not destroy it. Malak however pushed so hard plenty of words suffered BDZ. Then after Revan regained his memories, he took upon himself to deal with the Sith threat alone, while leaving his former comrades to hold the Republic together.

I think one of the unaddressed questions in KOTOR II is what became of the Star Forge if Revan had turned Dark. He did not, as the Star Forge was destroyed according to the NEC.

Other than the uneasiness of one's preference and what not, it boils down to the official line...

Maybe a threat on KOTOR should be in order.. though in the TF.N that has spawned lots of threads on the subject matter.

A Sith Lord is not defined by "me smash puny Republic!", it would be impractical to destroy an entire infrastructure if you intend to rule it. Palpatine wasn't known for wanton destruction either.
That doesn't mean altruism comes into it, Telos for example may have been Malak and Saul Karath's operation but Revan ordered it and holds executive responsibility for glassing the planet.

On the Star Forge, KotOR II has an explanation for the Dark Side ending actually; Revan abandoned it and no-one else knew how to operate it. In the end Bastila leaves it to it's fate and leaves to follow Revan.
A bit convenient, but it makes sense when you consider that use of the Star Forge was a factor in the Rakatan's loss of their connection to the Force.

I've just read this new "Legacy" comic and the KOTOR one. Actually, I liked it. It looks fresh... just like KOTOR looked really fresh when it came out. Feels fresh, and new, and it's not boring or wanked. I like it. The next issue, or any of the next issues, however, may ruin that impression quickly.

Cao Cao wrote:A Sith Lord is not defined by "me smash puny Republic!", it would be impractical to destroy an entire infrastructure if you intend to rule it. Palpatine wasn't known for wanton destruction either.
That doesn't mean altruism comes into it, Telos for example may have been Malak and Saul Karath's operation but Revan ordered it and holds executive responsibility for glassing the planet.

On the Star Forge, KotOR II has an explanation for the Dark Side ending actually; Revan abandoned it and no-one else knew how to operate it. In the end Bastila leaves it to it's fate and leaves to follow Revan.
A bit convenient, but it makes sense when you consider that use of the Star Forge was a factor in the Rakatan's loss of their connection to the Force.

Wait, no one else knew how to use it? Wasn't it a Sith officer who kept reporting to Malak they had increased the efficiency by so and so? Doesn't that suggest that non-force users were operating the device? Or did Revan intentionally cripple it?

Was it Revan's order to BDZ Telos? Telos is an important military base and thus makes little sense to destroy it. Likely, that was under Malak's order? Malak simply wiped out more than a few planets for defiance. Malak was far more brutal than Revan and it was noted that he was not a tactician. Malak, unlike Revan, was probably more interested in empire building than strengthening the galaxy against external invasion. That is why I considered it altruistic. It is the purpose and the act. His purposes was protection.

Erm.. Palpatine not known for wanton destruction? I wonder what the people of Alderaan would say to that.

Haven't read Legacy but from a synopsis i have read thus far, it seems interesting.

Regarding Palpatine and Wanton destruction: I guess it depends on how you look at it. He was responsible for the Clone wars, the Galactic Civil War, and every conflict that lead up to them (mainpulating the galaxy to foster war to have an effect on the jedi, getting Gunray in as TF Viceroy etc...). But he was responsible in that he indirectly caused them through his agents. Maul, Gunray, Grievous, Dooku and later people like Vader and Tarkin. He was responsible, he just never got his hands dirty.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Regarding Palpatine and Wanton destruction: I guess it depends on how you look at it. He was responsible for the Clone wars, the Galactic Civil War, and every conflict that lead up to them (mainpulating the galaxy to foster war to have an effect on the jedi, getting Gunray in as TF Viceroy etc...). But he was responsible in that he indirectly caused them through his agents. Maul, Gunray, Grievous, Dooku and later people like Vader and Tarkin. He was responsible, he just never got his hands dirty.

He was responsible for billions, maybe even trillions of deaths. He orchestrated the BDZ of Caamas for example and the attack on Dac with the World Devastators. He probably even ordered the extermination of the Yinchorr after they served his purposes. By his own hand, he has already the blood of billions covering his hand that blood is literally flowing from it. To say nothing of his henchmen for whom he condoned their actions.

I think the point was that Palpatine doesn't destroy for the sake of destroying; of course he actually is responsible for countless billions, but that doesn't mean that he killed them just for killing them.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Wait, no one else knew how to use it? Wasn't it a Sith officer who kept reporting to Malak they had increased the efficiency by so and so? Doesn't that suggest that non-force users were operating the device? Or did Revan intentionally cripple it?

The Star Forge is a device strongly connected to the Force. It's rather unlikely that a non-Force user could operate it at all.
More likely the officer was simply reporting on the Star Forge's current status, but Malak (who was Revan's apprentice after all) was the one who knew how to use it.

Was it Revan's order to BDZ Telos? Telos is an important military base and thus makes little sense to destroy it. Likely, that was under Malak's order? Malak simply wiped out more than a few planets for defiance. Malak was far more brutal than Revan and it was noted that he was not a tactician.

Revan was in charge. If Revan really objected to a BDZ operation then Malak would've paid for it - he obviously didn't.
Telos was a military base, but it was also a military base that wouldn't surrender to the Sith. So a message was sent. Defy us and your planet is toast. Revan was known for relatively brutal tactics in the Mandalorian Wars too. And that was before becoming a Sith Lord.

Malak, unlike Revan, was probably more interested in empire building than strengthening the galaxy against external invasion. That is why I considered it altruistic. It is the purpose and the act. His purposes was protection.

Malak was more overtly brutal, but his goals weren't that much different from Revan. Do you think Revan didn't want to build an empire?
The Star Forge churning out untold numbers of Leviathans proves you wrong.

Erm.. Palpatine not known for wanton destruction? I wonder what the people of Alderaan would say to that.

So, you refuse to blame Revan for Telos because Malak was the one who carried it out but you blame Palpatine for an act which Tarkin carried out?
That doesn't make sense. Both Revan and Palpatine let their henchman destroy the lives of billions. And both of them did it for their own personal beliefs of what is right. Neither are altruistic, but neither are out there killing just because they feel like it.

Cao Cao wrote:That doesn't make sense. Both Revan and Palpatine let their henchman destroy the lives of billions. And both of them did it for their own personal beliefs of what is right. Neither are altruistic, but neither are out there killing just because they feel like it.

While that's correct, Malak ordered the destruction of Telos after usurping Revan. Telos, Taris, and Dantooine was all Malak's work. He was pretty much a bulldozer when it came to strategy, unlike the precision strikes of Revan. Tarkin destroyed Alderaan on his own accord, but he did so with Palpatine's good memory. Unless you play EAW as the Empire Then they both blew up planets both left and right....

nightmare wrote:

Cao Cao wrote:That doesn't make sense. Both Revan and Palpatine let their henchman destroy the lives of billions. And both of them did it for their own personal beliefs of what is right. Neither are altruistic, but neither are out there killing just because they feel like it.

While that's correct, Malak ordered the destruction of Telos after usurping Revan. Telos, Taris, and Dantooine was all Malak's work. He was pretty much a bulldozer when it came to strategy, unlike the precision strikes of Revan. Tarkin destroyed Alderaan on his own accord, but he did so with Palpatine's good memory. Unless you play EAW as the Empire Then they both blew up planets both left and right....

I'm almost certain that Telos was when Revan was in power, as Carth held Revan as responsable as Malak and Karath for the destruction of his planet.

Cao Cao wrote:I'm almost certain that Telos was when Revan was in power, as Carth held Revan as responsable as Malak and Karath for the destruction of his planet.

Saul Karath was ordered to destroy the strategically unimportant world Telos by Malak as a show of faith. Perfectly in line with Malak's strategies, but completely opposite of Revan's. Now, note that Saul Karath had already joined Revan's forces against the Mandalorians, and continued with them when they turned Sith. So why would Revan want Saul to prove himself so drastically, out of so many, and in a completely wasteful way? Isn't it vastly more likely that Malak demanded a show of faith from an admiral that used to be Revan's?

There's a much simpler explanation for Carth's statement - he was simply unaware of the details. Even if he knew, he might have blamed them both out of anger.

I would further point out that Malak had no knowledge of Revan's plans, neither did he even know of the Trayus academy's existence, nor did he even know of the True Sith's. Malak wasn't particularly bright, but he made up for that with sheer brute force. Consider Taris, which was destroyed simply to kill Bastilla.

Revan's methods constrast against Malak. In many ways, Revan can be compared against Thrawn's campaign in many ways. Targeting the important sectors and taking the important worlds intact without destruction of military infrastructure. It was Malak, not Revan who ordered the bombardment of Telos. Though, oddly enough, no attempt was made to bombard the northern hemisphere where the secret Jedi Academy rested.

As for Palpatine, I would point out that Alderaan resided on a list of planets to be annihilated, which includes Calamari.

However... digging through wookieepedia brought up some interesting quotes. Apparently, according to Atris, the Jedi planned to use Telos as a refuge. Revan's attack on Telos was more to send the Jedi a message to the Jedi that there was no place to hide for them. Pretty much in line with his shadow war against the Jedi led by his Sith Assassins.

Guess I'll have to play KotOR again to find the exact circumstances of Telos since I can't find scripts anywhere online.

On Palpatine, Alderaan was a haven for the Rebellion and was brazenly supplying the Rebellion with ships, troops and weapons.
Had Yavin 4 had been destroyed along with Alderaan then the Rebellion would've been crushed. The era of galactic peace and order according to Palpatine would begin.
So no, it doesn't qualify as wanton destruction.

Cao Cao wrote:Guess I'll have to play KotOR again to find the exact circumstances of Telos since I can't find scripts anywhere online.

On Palpatine, Alderaan was a haven for the Rebellion and was brazenly supplying the Rebellion with ships, troops and weapons.
Had Yavin 4 had been destroyed along with Alderaan then the Rebellion would've been crushed. The era of galactic peace and order according to Palpatine would begin.
So no, it doesn't qualify as wanton destruction.

Actually, they wouldn't have stopped there. There were a number of worlds slated for destruction, including Dac apparently. And notably, the Calamari have successfully defied the Empire and even supplied the Rebellion with capital ships. Alderaan... supplied manpower and financial aid more like.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Actually, they wouldn't have stopped there. There were a number of worlds slated for destruction, including Dac apparently. And notably, the Calamari have successfully defied the Empire and even supplied the Rebellion with capital ships. Alderaan... supplied manpower and financial aid more like.

Grand Moff Tarkin called Alderaan the rebellion's chief source of munitions in the novelization of A New Hope.

Publius wrote:Grand Moff Tarkin called Alderaan the rebellion's chief source of munitions in the novelization of A New Hope.

Monetary source or manufacturing source? Surely Incom wasn't based on Alderaan.

Publius wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Actually, they wouldn't have stopped there. There were a number of worlds slated for destruction, including Dac apparently. And notably, the Calamari have successfully defied the Empire and even supplied the Rebellion with capital ships. Alderaan... supplied manpower and financial aid more like.

Grand Moff Tarkin called Alderaan the rebellion's chief source of munitions in the novelization of A New Hope.

That's curious. As much as Alderaan used to have a weapons industry of a sorts, they claimed to have demilitarised to an extent, and then the ship Another Chance held all of their war materiel.

Mysterious...

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:

Publius wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Actually, they wouldn't have stopped there. There were a number of worlds slated for destruction, including Dac apparently. And notably, the Calamari have successfully defied the Empire and even supplied the Rebellion with capital ships. Alderaan... supplied manpower and financial aid more like.

Grand Moff Tarkin called Alderaan the rebellion's chief source of munitions in the novelization of A New Hope.

That's curious. As much as Alderaan used to have a weapons industry of a sorts, they claimed to have demilitarised to an extent, and then the ship Another Chance held all of their war materiel.

Mysterious...

Most likely they gave the Rebels a ton of money through under the table transactions.

I find the claims that Alderaan had no weapons to be dubious, given that the Tantive IV was full of armed Rebel troopers and was itself converted for war. George Lucas says as much in the RotS commentary on that ship.

There's also a Ryan Church painting in Visionaries showing a fleet of Rebel refugees on the surface of Alderaan (part of a "in-universe photographical exhibition"). They had Nebulon-Bs, Mon Cal cruisers etc.

Alderaan is claimed to be known as the main rebel muntion supplier in the canonical ANH. I would doubt the imp. intelligence would suck as much as not noticing it. Besides, there are Alderaanian gunships in ROTJ novel.

And in BHW we learn, that they had ordered warships from KDY. They were declared tax-frigates and systems-patrol-craft, but their components were fitted into cruiser-hulls without problems.

Stas Bush wrote:Alderaan is claimed to be known as the main rebel muntion supplier in the canonical ANH. I would doubt the imp. intelligence would suck as much as not noticing it. Besides, there are Alderaanian gunships in ROTJ novel.

And, of course, there is the Coruscant-level planetary shield grid they set up, despite their claims of complete disarmament.

Galvatron wrote:

Publius wrote:Grand Moff Tarkin called Alderaan the rebellion's chief source of munitions in the novelization of A New Hope.

Monetary source or manufacturing source? Surely Incom wasn't based on Alderaan.

Incom Corporation was not the rebel Alliance's chief supplier. In fact, shortly after the Alliance got ahold of the X-wing starfighter, Incom was Imperialized and reorganized under a new, pro-Imperial corporate government (a fact mentioned in numerous sources; Coruscant and the Core Worlds even mentions a commissioned officer being in place as the corporation's minder). The particular details of Alderaan's activities as a weapons supplier are not known, but remember that Tarkin was not necessarily referring to the planet Alderaan only. Alderaan surely had off-world assets and colonies, and certainly had naval and military forces at its disposal (even if they were euphemistically 'self-defense forces' or such like). In any case, Alderaan is known to have provided considerable financial support, even after the planet's obliteration; the Crown Jewels of Alderaan were offered as collateral to a much-needed war loan from the Bank of Aargau in "The Third Law."

Surlethe wrote:I think the point was that Palpatine doesn't destroy for the sake of destroying; of course he actually is responsible for countless billions, but that doesn't mean that he killed them just for killing them.

Thank you. Palpatine always did something with a purpose in mind.