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Master_Baerne wrote:Admiral Daala found several people willing to help her resurrect the Empire, and she's a phsycopath. Thrawn, being alien, could empathize more with nonhuman subjects. He has real victories to produce, whereas Daala had zip. I maintain that he should have had more than what he got.

First of all, systematic speciesism in the Empire is the stuff of propaganda. There is ample evidence that nonhuman species participated in and benefited from the New Order, from the rank and file all the way up to the halls of the Imperial Palace. In fact, there is even evidence from the Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook and Han Solo at Stars' End suggesting that slavery was (generally) illegal; even when there is incontrovertible evidence of agents of the Imperial State trafficking in persons -- e.g., The Paradise Snare and "The Search Begins"/"Death in the City of Bone!" -- it is readily clear that humans were victimized as well, with no regard for species. When it decided to flagrantly violate its own citizens' sapient rights, the Imperial State was an equal opportunity oppressor.

This does not mean that there was no species-based bias; like all good propaganda, the charge is partially based in fact. However, it is fatuous to take this endemic bias for more than it is worth. Species-based discrimination existed in the twilight of the old Galactic Republic -- "Judicial Fired for Complaints of Species-Bias" (HoloNet News Vol. 531, No. 55) mentions that 37 incidences of wrongful discrimination were discovered during an investigation into the Judicial Department's own director of personnel, Lanyss Gutierrace. It continued to exist after the Imperial era; see The Krytos Trap, Solo Command, and the Diversity Alliance miniseries in Young Jedi Knights for prominent examples of speciesist tensions in the supposedly enlightened New Republic. Notably, neither era was noted for a lack of prominent nonhuman leaders.

At any rate, you underestimate the extent of Grand Admiral Thrawn's power during his term as the shôgun of the Empire. In Heir to the Empire, the Empire was said to control "barely a quarter of the galaxy." The Essential Chronology states that Thrawn "consolidated loyal Imperial forces," which probably refers to the quasi-independent pocket empires under nominal Imperial suzerainty in the Mid-Rim; The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, Second Edition states that "many such areas" controlled by the Empire were "firmly controlled by the Imperial starfleet, which for the time being has rallied around Grand Admiral Thrawn," but "this is a tenuous alliance at best," as "many of the regions of 'Imperial Space' are actually small dictatorships, administered and controlled by the Moffs who were directed to run them for the Emperor in years past." (The Dark Empire Sourcebook adds that "Thrawn's support was far from universal or even enthusiastic," which obviously requires his power base to be larger than the small squadron seen in the trilogy.) The Last Command mentions the Empire as having major shipyards at Bilbringi, Ord Trasi, and Yaga Minor.

At the same time, you overestimate Thrawn's sympathy for nonhumans. The Chiss were an extremely xenophobic species. "The University of Sanbra Guide to Intelligent Life: The Chiss" mentions that they had a "cultured contempt" for other species, and that they regarded all others as being "primitive and barbaric." The New Republic Historical Council -- a shameless perpetrator of the propagandistic "Evil Racist Empire" line -- notably claims that nonhumans became significant within the Empire's power structure only during the brief reign of the Imperial Interim Ruling Council in 46rS, whereas Thrawn's War took place two years earlier, in 44rS.

You also overestimate the strength available to Corporal Daala's zombified "Empire." According to Darksaber, she controlled one Super Star Destroyer, 45 Imperial Star Destroyers, and 112 Victory Star Destroyers -- which is equivalent to only three or four Sector Groups under the Empire (in fact, according to the Imperial Sourcebook, a particularly influential Imperial potentate like Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin or Moff Carlinson could easily have as many as 97 Imperial Star Destroyers at his disposal). Her fleet was not particularly impressive -- Grand Admiral Josef Grunger assembled a fleet of 30 Imperial and Victory Star Destroyers on the strength of his name alone before his death in 40rS, according to "Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals."

Wow. I feel like an idiot. Just for curiositiy then, how many ships dis Thrawn command?

Publius often has that effect.

Thrawn, as Imperial Supreme Commander, would theoretically have all the Imperial assets under his command.

Whether he could actually pry them away from Intel, the Moffs, the Advisors, COMPNOR or who not is another matter.

If we are to believe that the Empire's ratio of warships is consumerate to its territory, Thrawn would probably have at minimum around 6250 Imperators/Tectors. Of course, many of those ships would be need for sector pacification and that sort of policing duty, as the Tyrannic had done.

there's IIRC no telling a Katana from your bog-standard dreadnought from the outside.

A Katana-type dreadnaught is painted black. That's it.

In fact, Han and Lando only noticed that one of Bel Iblis' ships was of the type when Lando noticed the upholstery.

So yeah, the only psychological effect I noticed was the embarrassment on account of the NR at being beaten to the punch.

No, there are differences. Thrawn talks about those differences with Pellaeon after Mara offered the fleet to them.

Of course there are differences, but primarily in the area of automation. There simply are not drastic physical differences. An assault frigate looks a lot less like a standard dreadnaught than the Katana does.

Pelranius wrote:If we are to believe that the Empire's ratio of warships is consumerate to its territory, Thrawn would probably have at minimum around 6250 Imperators/Tectors. Of course, many of those ships would be need for sector pacification and that sort of policing duty, as the Tyrannic had done.

I should probably know this, but whats a Tector?

Wiki on the Tector-class ISD. And no Wookiepedia entry on the Tector OR ISDs? Boo.
And if it's any consolation I had to look it up, too.

Batman wrote: And no Wookiepedia entry on the Tector OR ISDs? Boo.

Where have you been looking? :P
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_War ... d_vehicles

Then their search function had a hickup. I obviously stand corrected.

No no. You searched on the REAL Wiki, while VT utilized the far more comprehensive (for Star Wars at least) Wookieepedia.

MarshalFoch wrote:

xerex wrote:I remember one offensive he attack three planets simultaneously. He had 5 SDs under his direct command with 8 SD's attacked the other two planets.

I assume you are referring to Ukio, which IIRC, he used the other ISDs to lure away the New Republic sector fleet away in packets, and one was sent to hit the sector fleet's base to ensure that no ships would interfere with his planned assault, perhaps showing he did not have the offensive resources at the time to defeat the New Republic's forces in a given sector.

nope. In HTTE ch9 he atacks Bpfassh System with 5 SD's while 8 others hit 2 other locations (4 each). its the first attack with Joruus coordinating between the task forces. It a hit and fade designed to force the NR to use its valuable warships as transports to aid in the reconstruction. Leading to the Sluis Van attack at the end of HTTE.

The Original Nex wrote:No no. You searched on the REAL Wiki, while VT utilized the far more comprehensive (for Star Wars at least) Wookieepedia.

Which I searched FIRST, genius. Commenting on wiki not having entries on the Tector or ISDs in a post where I link to the wiki entry on the Tector would be moderately pointless now wouldn't it.

Obviously there were more ships than Thrawn's 'personal armada'. A prime example is the Interdictor cruiser that Thrawn sends to intercept Luke at one point. Unfortunately, it's been a while since I read the series and I can't remember the name of it.

Batman wrote:

The Original Nex wrote:No no. You searched on the REAL Wiki, while VT utilized the far more comprehensive (for Star Wars at least) Wookieepedia.

Which I searched FIRST, genius. Commenting on wiki not having entries on the Tector or ISDs in a post where I link to the wiki entry on the Tector would be moderately pointless now wouldn't it.

I merely assumed you meant there was no FULL article for the Tector found on wikipedia, and linked to a subarticle in the Stardestroyer article.

Apologies for my misinterpretation.

As others mentioned, ,Thrawn almost certainly had FAR more ships than we saw in the Zahn novels available to him (Visions of the Future implied he had some sort of reserve in the Unknown Regions, at least.) but he situation he came back into was exceedingly fucked up and his actions were largely hampered by a number of problems:

1.) While he lead the "loyalist" Empire faction he was not (as mentioned0 very popular in all respects (We see an example of this with Ambassador Furgan and Carida.) Moreover he was running a military at that time that was largely a (probably unwilling) conscript force, and it was unlikely that every member of the Empire was a willing one (we certainly get hints of this throughout that era of the EU.) Threat of uprising probably was a constant problem.

2.) In addition to likely internal problems, Thrawn faced a number of external opponents: The Imperial warlords (such as the Pentestar alignment, Harrsk or Teradoc, etc.) and the New Republic itself. Commerce raiding, sowing dissent, and probably outright attacks were a constant threat from either quarter for Thrawn, especially with the undertrained conscripts that he had.

3.) Palpatine was still around at this time, and actively working to fuck up the effrots of everyone in the galaxy including Thrawn (As described in the Dark Empire sourceebook.)

Given the above, Thrawn could easily have had (and probably did have) millions of warships, but necessity forceed him to keep virtually all of that tied down in defense (either patrolling borders against incursions by the warlords or the New Republic, or in keeping an eye on his own terriitory in case someone tried to cause trouble.) Add to that the rather shitty economic situation at the time (trade was greatly disrupted on the New REpublic side, so the same is probably true on the Imperial side as well) and the general upheaval of the past five or so years (in addition to everything Palpy is doing behind the scenes) and the likelihood of building new ships becomes problematic at best (for everyone involved, really.)

That makes perfect sense. However, doesn't it seem just a little bit odd to you that Grand Admiral Thrawn conducted most of his major campaigns with only 10 or so Star Destroyers, while the New Republic is supposed do have hundreds? He conducted the Sluis Vn operation with only the Chimaera (correect me if I'm wrong, it's been years since I read HTTE),
which seems a little underpowetred for an assault on a major shipyard with a hundred warships stationed there? While we're talking about underpowered, why was Rouge Squadron thye only unit defending the base?

Master_Baerne wrote:That makes perfect sense. However, doesn't it seem just a little bit odd to you that Grand Admiral Thrawn conducted most of his major campaigns with only 10 or so Star Destroyers, while the New Republic is supposed do have hundreds? He conducted the Sluis Vn operation with only the Chimaera (correect me if I'm wrong, it's been years since I read HTTE),
which seems a little underpowetred for an assault on a major shipyard with a hundred warships stationed there? While we're talking about underpowered, why was Rouge Squadron thye only unit defending the base?

What "major campaigns"? As far as I can recall he spent the bulk of the trilogy conducting Rebel style guerilla attacks (commerce raiding and terror/infrastructure attacks) spaced out by occasional tactical strikes to acquire needed supplies. Indeed, most of his activity throughout the book was dedicated to consolidating and building up his forces so that he COULD launch major campaigns (even up to the capture of Ukio.) He didn't start making any genuine attacks in earnest until midway through the last book, and even then he had been unable to make many major incursions into New REpublic territory (a few dozen systems or sectors tops, IIRC - hardly "major" territory on a galactic scale.) And it should be noted that most of his "major" campaigns were largely won through guile, not military power (Ukio and Coruscant.)

And if you're talking about Sluis Van in Heir to the Empire, he wasn't "assaulting" it in the sense he was trying to destroy it, he was raiding the shipyard to steal the ships docked there to bolster his own fleet. And Rogue Squadron wasn't "guarding" that base, it was serving as escort for a single frigate converted to cargo carrying.

By major campaigns, I meant the attack on Ukio, the multi-pronged attacks on various plantes that Leia and Han encounter in TLC, and the attack on Coruscant. Granted that major campaing was the wrong phrase. Since Rogue Squadron wasn't actually guarding the base, it helps tp prove my point that the NR was being idiotic.

The attack on Sluis Van included 5 ISDs, 12 Strikes and 22 Carracks in addition to the freighter Thrawn used to infiltrate the shipyard.

Master_Baerne wrote:By major campaigns, I meant the attack on Ukio, the multi-pronged attacks on various plantes that Leia and Han encounter in TLC, and the attack on Coruscant.

Ukio was an assault on a single system and Coruscant was a Valendamned hit-and-run attack that did no appreciable damage other than the asteroid blockade.

Granted that major campaing was the wrong phrase.

You can say THAT again.

Since Rogue Squadron wasn't actually guarding the base, it helps tp prove my point that the NR was being idiotic.

How so? It wasn't their JOB to. It's not like they were the ONLY force that could have defended the shipyards.
Incidentally the Sluis Van attack involved a bit more than just Chimaera.
Specifically, 5 ISDs, 12 Strike-class cruisers, 22 Caracks and their complement of TIEs amounting to 30 squadrons (HTTE Bantam paperback, p376).

Batman wrote:

Master_Baerne wrote:Since Rogue Squadron wasn't actually guarding the base, it helps tp prove my point that the NR was being idiotic.

How so? It wasn't their JOB to. It's not like they were the ONLY force that could have defended the shipyards.

Indeed. IIRC, didn't the book even mention Assault Frigates and the like challenging Thrawn's forces, and even requiring one of his ISDs to tractor a crippled Frigate to serve as makeshit "shields" for itself? And indeed, when Lando and Han foiled his plan, they decided to retreat rather than fuck up the shipyards and take unnecessary losses (which would be hard if Rogue Squadron was ALL the NR had there as defenders...).

ConnorMacleod: Didn't the Essential Chronology state that Thrawn had effectively doubled the territory of the Empire by his death?

Of course, that could have just been referring to territory directly under the control of Dangor and his council, or Kaine might have tentatively decided to join Thrawn just prior to Bilbringi and then withdrawn after the death of the Grand Admiral.

I have no problem with the claim of Thrawn doubling the territory as long as most of that are less developed Outer Rim-systems.