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Captain Lennox wrote:But few were used due too Tarkin's arrogance. Lord Vader could only dispatch his fighter force which was than a Wing of Starfighters.

Most unfortunatly yes. Perhaps had he been in the posistion of power that he was in at TESB, Vader could've just deployed the fleet, kicked up his feet on Tarkin's desk, pointed and laughed.

Argh. I'll concede the TIE Defender since it appears in several novels, but please, the Missile Boat? That thing was more of an "impossible uber-fighter" than the Defender is, and even the Defender was disgusting compared to all prior craft.

If you're going to use the Missile Boat as an example of an Imperial starfighter that is superior to Rebel/New Republic craft, then you also have to mention that a lone X-Wing can vaporize an ISD without any particular aid from his wingmates (I've done it in the games, after all, and that's where the Missile Boat is from...)

Did the TIE Avenger or Defender exist in the Star Wars universe prior to the X-Wing and TIE Fighter games? Because honestly, it has always seemed to me that those two fighter designs were tossed in for the sole purpose of allowing players in TIE Fighter to rack up disgusting kill totals with absolutely minimal effort.

I was disgusted with LucasArts for including the godforsaken Z-95 Headhunter in XvT and not the B-Wing or the E-Wing.

Kerneth wrote:Argh. I'll concede the TIE Defender since it appears in several novels, but please, the Missile Boat? That thing was more of an "impossible uber-fighter" than the Defender is, and even the Defender was disgusting compared to all prior craft.

The ships exist in the SW universe. Whether or not you personally like it is irrevelant.

If you're going to use the Missile Boat as an example of an Imperial starfighter that is superior to Rebel/New Republic craft, then you also have to mention that a lone X-Wing can vaporize an ISD without any particular aid from his wingmates (I've done it in the games, after all, and that's where the Missile Boat is from...)

The movies override the games and in the movies a lone X-wing cannot take out an ISD. The canon material says nothing about Missle boats, therefore they're legit.

Did the TIE Avenger or Defender exist in the Star Wars universe prior to the X-Wing and TIE Fighter games? Because honestly, it has always seemed to me that those two fighter designs were tossed in for the sole purpose of allowing players in TIE Fighter to rack up disgusting kill totals with absolutely minimal effort.

The TIE Avenger was a modification of Vader's personal TIE in ANH.

I was disgusted with LucasArts for including the godforsaken Z-95 Headhunter in XvT and not the B-Wing or the E-Wing.

I've yet to see anyone who like the Z-95s.

*poke da noobie*

Also Game mechanics are apocrypha.

So no One X-Wing taking down an SSD(which can be done)

Just a small warning and friendly hello.

The fact that the game mechanics are absurd was actually the point I was trying to make. I'm well aware that a lone X-Wing, or even a 36-fighter wing, isn't a match for an ISD.

I'd still like to know if the TIE Defender showed up in literature prior to its appearance in TIE Fighter, I'm not arguing that it doesn't exist, I'm just wondering whether it exists because it's actually a workable starfighter design or because they needed more ultra-powerful starships in TIE Fighter. Also, are the games canon?

actually I believe it appeared after TIE fighter in one of the Rogue squadron books.

The stories are official...not the mechanics are not official(thus Farlander and Steele's tales are official...and Farlander has appeared in NJO for those wondering).

Also canon only extends to the movies, novels(of the five movies) and radio dramas...in that order.

I just wanted to say that I think a lot of the arguments in this thread are good and definetly true. But I do not like Darth Pounders hard attacks against the new members like me (IGBC) or Grog as in this case.

Don't you think he has gone too far when he ask Grog if he had smoked crack, and when he threat me with his silly personal messages.

IGBC wrote:I just wanted to say that I think a lot of the arguments in this thread are good and definetly true. But I do not like Darth Pounders hard attacks against the new members like me (IGBC) or Grog as in this case.

Don't you think he has gone too far when he ask Grog if he had smoked crack, and when he threat me with his silly personal messages.

Well, "are you on crack?" or "are you high?" are fairly common ways of artfully saying "what the fuck are you thinking, retard?" I don't think Pounder meant to be overly mean.
As for being hard on newbies, that's just something people do. Haven't you ever been a freshman in school? It's natural human behavior. If you don't like it, all you have to do is act respectable, and stick around, and people will let you too poke newbs.
Also, PM issues should really be taken care of via PMs.

Take it easy.

First of all a wing is 72 craft not 36.

The TIE Defender were really created for the TIE fighter game but since then it became part of the SW universe, wether you like it or not.

...and a good advice!

Don't whine for being poked or offenced!

That will bring you far worse things...

you must remember that I am just a newbie and I just have not got so atacked by a forummember before. But I do still think you are pretty hard against me and Grog.

I mean was not the tread about what Yoda tasted like funny? I do think so and the ones at the community of Starwars.com thought so too. But then they locked the thread suddenly.

I come in peace, relax

IGBC wrote:you must remember that I am just a newbie and I just have not got so atacked by a forummember before. But I do still think you are pretty hard against me and Grog.

I mean was not the tread about what Yoda tasted like funny? I do think so and the ones at the community of Starwars.com thought so too. But then they locked the thread suddenly.

I come in peace, relax

Next time use the quotes option because this way I'm not sure who you reply to.

I don't think I was hard against you or Grog!
The thread of you mentioned has nothing to do with this one.

Don't hijack threads, it will bring further insults for you.

Sorry dudes, let's get back to topic! Shall we?

Boba Fett wrote:

IGBC wrote:you must remember that I am just a newbie and I just have not got so atacked by a forummember before. But I do still think you are pretty hard against me and Grog.

I mean was not the tread about what Yoda tasted like funny? I do think so and the ones at the community of Starwars.com thought so too. But then they locked the thread suddenly.

I come in peace, relax

Next time use the quotes option because this way I'm not sure who you reply to.

I don't think I was hard against you or Grog!
The thread of you mentioned has nothing to do with this one.

Don't hijack threads, it will bring further insults for you.

Sorry dudes, let's get back to topic! Shall we?

Ok, you seem to be a nice one.
Anyway....this thread has a lot of different ideas. And I do not think I should say anything more about then I have already said. That will only get things more confused.

Darth Pounder wrote:
are you smoking crack? The falcon killed 4 do you see that 4 ties. AFAIK the DS carried roughly 12 squardons of Ties.

A man like Baron Fel owned the Rebel pilots as did most of his 181st group. In the few times rebel pilots flew various Ties they owned ass also. Just read the Wraith Squadron books where they used mixed X-Wings and Interceptors there was no descerning difference between the fighters. As i said before the popular opinion about X-Wings is just fan-boyism.

Naw, stupid fanboyism was that whole part of that book tha thad Baron Butt-Spank showing up in the first place.

The entire "super race" that lives out on the unknown region spanking their monkey yet have more skilled pilots than the most elite New Republic unit (Rogue Squadron with decades of experience) was purely idiotic. Some of the EU books are ok. The rest are just author creamfests as they try to outdo each other to write the most extreme crap.

For one thing, I would think that the Chiss squadron involved was their own crack unit. Crack units tend to have relatively small differences.

For another, really Rogue Squadron is not quite as good as it used to be. During its glory days in Stackpole X-Wing books, it had a lot of near-unkillable greats. They kept accumulating experience and flight hours, and thus they kept getting more and more unkillable.

By the time of NJO, however, Gavin Darklighter was CO. Gavin is competent enough, but AFAIK, he's no Wedge or Tycho. SO the leader wasn't as good as it used to be. And the crew, let's face it, letting Jaina in was a sign of how far it had fallen.

Jaina had the Force - that's great. And its obvious that she has piloting talent. But I doubt anyone can deny that she really lacks flying hours (experience,) which is a great part in flying proficiency and situational awareness, as well as tactics. Jeez, being in the crack squadron at 16, with no significant combat experience.

You will notice that Wedge and I think it was Tycho that was the other guy, did manage to kill off Jag Fel in the sim, despite the fact that they're aging and their reflexes are probably not what they used to be. That suggested that it was Rogue Squadron that had fallen, not Fel's squadron that had risen to astronomical heights.

You have no idea what Jag's squadron had really been through. Many of them could have accumulated three thousand or more flying hours (lots and lots of experience, possibly some of it in combat with the Unknown Region species) in the intervening years. Luke certainly managed to amass that much sometime between Yavin and the Thrawn trilogy.

And perhaps the claw-fighter was technically superior. If two pilots of roughly equal skill go in a fight. One goes in a TIE Defender and the other in a X-Wing, the TIE Defender pilot will likely win - he's faster and all that.

Between all these factors, I don't think it is that bad.

Naw, stupid fanboyism was that whole part of that book tha thad Baron Butt-Spank showing up in the first place.

The entire "super race" that lives out on the unknown region spanking their monkey yet have more skilled pilots than the most elite New Republic unit (Rogue Squadron with decades of experience) was purely idiotic. Some of the EU books are ok. The rest are just author creamfests as they try to outdo each other to write the most extreme crap.

-Baron Fel is not a Chiss, neither is his son Jagged, both are full human
-Baron Fel served with Rogue Squadron for a time, and was considered by many to be equal to Wedge Antilles in pilot skill, "the greatest Imperial Ace since Darth Vader"
-Baron Fel then lived among the Chiss and trained pilots. Those pilots in turn learned from one of the best piltos in the galaxy. Thus giving them training that is just as good if not better than NR pilots. Rogue Squadron or otherwise. Since the Chiss are more militaristic, they probably emphasize training more and haven't downsized their military like the NR did prior to the Vong showing up.
-Where, in any EU book, does it say that Chiss squadron(s) are more skilled than Rogue Squadron? I don't believe it does anywhere, if im wrong correct me.

-I agree on the fact that the eu books are mostly crap, but I just have a question you do know it wasn't the real 181st in the Wraith squadron books right?

Boba Fett wrote:First of all a wing is 72 craft not 36.

Rebel flight wings were 36. I'm not sure if the NR changed this.

IGBC wrote:you must remember that I am just a newbie and I just have not got so atacked by a forummember before. But I do still think you are pretty hard against me and Grog.

I mean was not the tread about what Yoda tasted like funny? I do think so and the ones at the community of Starwars.com thought so too. But then they locked the thread suddenly.

I come in peace, relax

If you make a stupid comment expect to be smacked down. Get used to it. Trust me i'm not half as bad as certain members here like Spanky or Wong is you piss them off. But the point is that guy had been sayign about the Falcon wiping out all the Ties on the DS and board rules are that if you are gonna make a claim you really need to back it up. If you are sensitive you're on the wrong board.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:By the time of NJO, however, Gavin Darklighter was CO. Gavin is competent enough, but AFAIK, he's no Wedge or Tycho. SO the leader wasn't as good as it used to be. And the crew, let's face it, letting Jaina in was a sign of how far it had fallen.

IIRC, Rogue Squadron hasn't had much action since the Thrawn Duology, and even then most of the "Greats" were getting old and retiring quickly. The new blood didn't get the combat time that their predecessors did.

Jaina had the Force - that's great. And its obvious that she has piloting talent. But I doubt anyone can deny that she really lacks flying hours (experience,) which is a great part in flying proficiency and situational awareness, as well as tactics. Jeez, being in the crack squadron at 16, with no significant combat experience.

Indeed. AFAIK, she's now been moved to the Twin Suns squadron for the psyops operations against the Vong.

You will notice that Wedge and I think it was Tycho that was the other guy, did manage to kill off Jag Fel in the sim, despite the fact that they're aging and their reflexes are probably not what they used to be. That suggested that it was Rogue Squadron that had fallen, not Fel's squadron that had risen to astronomical heights.

Probably six of one, half-dozen of the other. Both squadrons are good, no doubt about that.

And perhaps the claw-fighter was technically superior. If two pilots of roughly equal skill go in a fight. One goes in a TIE Defender and the other in a X-Wing, the TIE Defender pilot will likely win - he's faster and all that.

I'm not sure if the Clawfighter is superior or not. It's excellent - no-one is doubting that, but the "XJ-Wing" is a fine fighter as well.

Darth Pounder wrote:

IGBC wrote:you must remember that I am just a newbie and I just have not got so atacked by a forummember before. But I do still think you are pretty hard against me and Grog.

I mean was not the tread about what Yoda tasted like funny? I do think so and the ones at the community of Starwars.com thought so too. But then they locked the thread suddenly.

I come in peace, relax

If you make a stupid comment expect to be smacked down. Get used to it. Trust me i'm not half as bad as certain members here like Spanky or Wong is you piss them off. But the point is that guy had been sayign about the Falcon wiping out all the Ties on the DS and board rules are that if you are gonna make a claim you really need to back it up. If you are sensitive you're on the wrong board.

I didn't mean that many when I posted it, but if you thought I did the I understand your belief that I was on crack or something.

Grog wrote:Many of them were killed by the millenium falcon when they rescued Leia at the first death star.

[quote ="grog"]I didn't mean that many when I posted it, but if you thought I did the I understand your belief that I was on crack or something.[/quote]

What do u consider to be the meaning of many.

As another Flamewarrior mentioned the whole "are you smoking crack" thing is a common rebutal here. Don't blame me for you being sensitive.[/quote]

Darth Pounder wrote:

Grog wrote:Many of them were killed by the millenium falcon when they rescued Leia at the first death star.

[quote ="grog"]I didn't mean that many when I posted it, but if you thought I did the I understand your belief that I was on crack or something.

What do u consider to be the meaning of many.

As another Flamewarrior mentioned the whole "are you smoking crack" thing is a common rebutal here. Don't blame me for you being sensitive.[/quote][/quote]

I'm not sensitive, if I would be I wouldn't have put a at the end of my post. But maybe that part of the message was to IGBS.

And many to me in this case would be approximately 10 or something. but as I said it was a long time ago since I watched ANH when I did the post.

Is it not a good idea to be sure of what you are saying before you say it? Things like half assed unfounded unreaseached comments will get you flamed by much nastier ppl than me.

Darth Pounder wrote:Is it not a good idea to be sure of what you are saying before you say it? Things like half assed unfounded unreaseached comments will get you flamed by much nastier ppl than me.

I was sure of what I was saying. It was wrong but that is because of my bad memory and if you flame my bad memory I wouldn’t care

phongn wrote:

Boba Fett wrote:First of all a wing is 72 craft not 36.

Rebel flight wings were 36. I'm not sure if the NR changed this.

A flight group is 6 craft.

A squadron consists 12 fighters.

A full wing is 6 squadron = 72 crafts.

That's for the imperial side although. I think it's same for the rebels.

AFAIK, rebel wings were always 3 squadrons of 12. I've never heard otherwise. The WEG Rebel Sourcebook has it written down, if you want evidence. Shep probably has it at his site.