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General Zod wrote:

EnsGabe wrote:
It's not the only reason. It just so happens to be a good one ON TOP OF whatever merits it has as a game system, because the two uses are not mutually exclusive.

Then why is it that every single recommendation I hear in favor of the PS3 almost always involves speaking praises about the hardware but hardly a peep of the actual game playing aspect? Which is the main reason people should be interested in it in the first place?

This is actually only a matter of advertising. Sony made a big deal of making the PS3 sound like the most powerful, and that's what fanboys have picked up on. Interestingly it has been noted that most multiplatform games look BETTER on XBox 360, and the XBox 360 has a more powerful GPU and the PS3's CPU is only better in THEORY but rarely in actual utilization, at least at this point in time.

EnsGabe wrote:
Why are you shoving words in my mouth? 'Regularly upgrade their home entertainment systems'? Where did I intimate anything of the sort? Why should RThurmont care about Sony's ability to move PS3's off the shelf? What does the hardcore gaming crowd have to do with any of this?

My point is that when someone asks what gaming console is best, you don't recommend a gaming console based on its fantastic hardware, which doesn't count for much. If it doesn't do well in the market, then Sony will quit developing games for it, and by then the price of real blu-ray players will have dropped significantly if it's still a viable medium. Which means, guess what, you're left with a $700 brick that just happens to play HD movies.

It seems to me like you're arguing about which system is going to win the console wars, which is irrelevant to the OP. The PS3 has hardware capabilities I'm interested in, and Linux on the PS3 tickles RThurmont's fancy. What's the problem?

My problem is that he's asking about which gaming system to purchase. I'm not sure how it works in your reality, but I don't purchase a gaming system based on the supposedly fantastic hardware.

Praxis wrote: Do you have an HDTV? If so PS3 or 360 will look significantly better only because Wii maxes out at 480p.

Even if you don't have a HDTV, the Xbox 360 still looks a good deal better than the Wii, simply because you get higher polycounts, bump mapping, normal mapping, and pixel shader effects, which the Wii has to do in software, greatly limiting it's graphical potential. There are instances where people are trying to make the Wii look good, but there really aren't any games on it yet that match the best of the original Xbox.

General Zod wrote:

EnsGabe wrote:
Why are you shoving words in my mouth? 'Regularly upgrade their home entertainment systems'? Where did I intimate anything of the sort? Why should RThurmont care about Sony's ability to move PS3's off the shelf? What does the hardcore gaming crowd have to do with any of this?

My point is that when someone asks what gaming console is best, you don't recommend a gaming console based on its fantastic hardware, which doesn't count for much. If it doesn't do well in the market, then Sony will quit developing games for it, and by then the price of real blu-ray players will have dropped significantly if it's still a viable medium. Which means, guess what, you're left with a $700 brick that just happens to play HD movies.

It seems to me like you're arguing about which system is going to win the console wars, which is irrelevant to the OP. The PS3 has hardware capabilities I'm interested in, and Linux on the PS3 tickles RThurmont's fancy. What's the problem?

My problem is that he's asking about which gaming system to purchase. I'm not sure how it works in your reality, but I don't purchase a gaming system based on the supposedly fantastic hardware.

And here we are at the crux of the matter: what you want isn't necessarily what he wants isn't necessarily what I want. He mentions using Linux on the PS3. I mention one potential use of Linux on the PS3. You start going nuts about how buying a PS3 because of reasons distinct, but not separated from games is somehow going to leave him $700 worth of useless hardware.

I point to the avid Xbox hacking/homebrew scene as an example of what can be done to console by dedicated individuals. You have a community that had no support from the manufacturer with regards to non-commercial development, and they were able to take the Xbox and turn it what I envision the PS3 being, sans the HD video capacity. This is after, IIRC, spending over a year trying to bypass all hardware the restrictions in place to prevent them from doing exactly what they set out to do.

Now, the PS3 skips over that hardware hacking phase and allows developers to start on the media center capabilities. Between that and the Cell being a processor used by IBM in other hardware markets, leads me to believe that there will eventually be a large homebrew linux PS3 environment.

None of which matters, though, according to you. Because you've decided that nothing other gaming is what the PS3 is for, because you say so.

I wouldn't have brought any of this up if RThurmont hadn't mentioned going beyond gaming in the OP wrt the system he buys, and from what I've seen with the Wii we have here, it's fun to play games on, and it's fun to see what game developers do with the Wiimote and the whatnot, but there's not much he can do with the system, besides play games. My opinion on the Xbox360 is similar, swapping the benefit of the Wiimote for the benefit of a game library.

EnsGabe wrote:

I wouldn't have brought any of this up if RThurmont hadn't mentioned going beyond gaming in the OP wrt the system he buys, and from what I've seen with the Wii we have here, it's fun to play games on, and it's fun to see what game developers do with the Wiimote and the whatnot, but there's not much he can do with the system, besides play games. My opinion on the Xbox360 is similar, swapping the benefit of the Wiimote for the benefit of a game library.

So, if someone asks you to recommend them a gaming system, do you always go "Well, this console has x, x, x, and x, games on it, which are a blast, but the hardware sucks because you can't do anything with it. But this console has kickass hardware but no library to speak of, but you should buy it anyway?"

General Zod wrote:

EnsGabe wrote:

I wouldn't have brought any of this up if RThurmont hadn't mentioned going beyond gaming in the OP wrt the system he buys, and from what I've seen with the Wii we have here, it's fun to play games on, and it's fun to see what game developers do with the Wiimote and the whatnot, but there's not much he can do with the system, besides play games. My opinion on the Xbox360 is similar, swapping the benefit of the Wiimote for the benefit of a game library.

So, if someone asks you to recommend them a gaming system, do you always go "Well, this console has x, x, x, and x, games on it, which are a blast, but the hardware sucks because you can't do anything with it. But this console has kickass hardware but no library to speak of, but you should buy it anyway?"

I tailor my responses to who's asking. He mentions Linux on PS3, I mention a use of Linux. Someone doesn't mention Linux on PS3, I don't mention it. See how I understand how different people have different needs?

So, rather than offer useful information (like phongn did re: PS3 Linux, it will be a pain in the ass to get software for unless you write it yourself because none of the apps are written for Cell), you take what you see, turn it into a sales pitch, and feed it back?

The useful information is this:

If you want a device to run Linux, buy a computer. If you want a web browser, buy a computer. If you want a home theatre, buy a home theatre and add a HD media player when the format war is over, if you want to play games in the living room buy an Xbox 360, because the other consoles do not have enough games to validate their purchase at this time.

I get the impression that some people would try to install Linux on a waffle iron if some random guy on a board claimed they did...

Vendetta wrote:So, rather than offer useful information (like phongn did re: PS3 Linux, it will be a pain in the ass to get software for unless you write it yourself because none of the apps are written for Cell), you take what you see, turn it into a sales pitch, and feed it back?

Strictly speaking, one could compile from source, but AFAIK, for general-purpose code only the PPE will be used. While reasonably powerful, there are other elements of the console design that make the PS3 less than optimal for Linux use.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I get the impression that some people would try to install Linux on a waffle iron if some random guy on a board claimed they did...

I've seen it on toaster ovens...

If it's going to be your first console then i'd reccomend the PS2. With the PS3 coming out it's going to be a lot cheaper, already has a massive catalogue of games which are cheap already or going to get cheaper and has the extras like a being a DVD player.

Vendetta wrote:Even if you don't have a HDTV, the Xbox 360 still looks a good deal better than the Wii, simply because you get higher polycounts, bump mapping, normal mapping, and pixel shader effects, which the Wii has to do in software, greatly limiting it's graphical potential. There are instances where people are trying to make the Wii look good, but there really aren't any games on it yet that match the best of the original Xbox.

This will probably go down as a poor decision by Nintendo. New and interesting is awesome, but they chose a performance point that (going by available games) is slightly too low to be compeditive at all in regular games.

I've seen it on toaster ovens...

Actually what you saw was NetBSD, a free OS guided by the concept of portability. I can assure you, the NetBSD people would not be pleased about being called "Linux."

Anyway, I really do appreciate the insights that have been graciously shared with me on this thread. Ultimately, from my perspective, I only need about five or so good games for a console, as opposed to a large library, as I don't do that much gaming (I've played about ten FPS games since 2000, half of which were vintage titles from the early 90s, which I had played then as well). I'm more interested in the use of the console as a sort of general-purpose relaxation device, and as something interesting to study from the standpoint of computer systems. However, the PS3's high degree of derision is worth noting, as well as the general praise for XBox. Also, regarding the XBox, I recall Microsoft distributed some game development kits for hobbyist use, or somesuch, and I like that idea.

What I'd really like to get more info on, if anyone has it, is on the specifics of PS3 and Wii availibility. XBox360 availibility I'm not worried about, as everyone seems to carry them...

Like I said earlier, the PS3 is ridiculously widely available. The Wii is harder to come by, at the moment but it's far more oriented towards the casual gamer and has enough games available that will appeal to someone who doesn't want to put in dozens of hours on a single title to complete it.

Microsoft freely released an SDK for limited Windows and Xbox 360 game development.

RThurmont wrote:What I'd really like to get more info on, if anyone has it, is on the specifics of PS3 and Wii availibility. XBox360 availibility I'm not worried about, as everyone seems to carry them...

You can get 60GB PS3s most anywhere. 20GBs might be a little trickier.

Wii shipments sell out within minutes, everywhere. If you want a guaranteed one you'll have to camp out for some hours before the store opens. There are various tracking websites and forums you can use to find out when the next shipment will be. If you want "walk in at Thursday around 3:42 pm and pick one up" availability, wait a while longer, Wii production is going up in April.

Wii shipments sell out within minutes, everywhere. If you want a guaranteed one you'll have to camp out for some hours before the store opens. There are various tracking websites and forums you can use to find out when the next shipment will be. If you want "walk in at Thursday around 3:42 pm and pick one up" availability, wait a while longer, Wii production is going up in April.

Screw that, I don't have time for that kind of crap.

Microsoft freely released an SDK for limited Windows and Xbox 360 game development.

That I like. Also I'd assume one could theoretically use it to write a non-game application?

RThurmont wrote:

Wii shipments sell out within minutes, everywhere. If you want a guaranteed one you'll have to camp out for some hours before the store opens. There are various tracking websites and forums you can use to find out when the next shipment will be. If you want "walk in at Thursday around 3:42 pm and pick one up" availability, wait a while longer, Wii production is going up in April.

Screw that, I don't have time for that kind of crap.

Welcome to console launches.

Stark wrote: This will probably go down as a poor decision by Nintendo. New and interesting is awesome, but they chose a performance point that (going by available games) is slightly too low to be compeditive at all in regular games.

I think it's sad. It may be simply to do with keeping archiectural compatibility with a gamecube, but surely it can't have been that hard to add hardware shaders to the graphics chip in the Wii.

At the end of the day, it looks like you'll have to push the Wii like a fucker to match the best of the original Xbox, let alone modern consoles, because everything that they would do in hardware has to be handled in software, and that's a juggling act between all the other things you need the CPU to do.