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Are we going to have the "omg 200 gigatons can destroy the world" argument in there or is it too stupid.

LeftWingExtremist wrote:Are we going to have the "omg 200 gigatons can destroy the world" argument in there or is it too stupid.

I think the frequency of an argument is more important than its intelligence when addressing common arguments.

I've heard this one dozens of times on many different forums. It definitely needs to be included.

200 gigatons is enough to boil a cube of water with a sidelenght of fifty kilometers, but not more.

General Schatten wrote:If Naboo and Alderaan are any indication, the defensive forces would be primarily used for policing acitons.

The problem there is that Naboo and Alderaan are noted for being pacifistic planets. Therefore their militaries, compared to other planetary forces, would be on the low end.

If I recall correctly, in the Hand of Thrawn series there is some mention of the Mon Cal system forces operating Mon Cal Star Cruisers (I think Leia mentions that the Mon Cals are thinking of sending some to defend the Bothan homeworld or something).

Also in TIE Fighter, one of the factions in the 'civil war' (I can't remember the name) campaign have "Mon Cal Light Cruisers", hardly something just for a policing force. (Even though a game it should count as its not game mechanics, but rather plot, please correct me if I am mistaken on this.)

So that gives us some indication of what a planetary/system defence force in Star Wars can actually be like.

atg wrote:

General Schatten wrote:If Naboo and Alderaan are any indication, the defensive forces would be primarily used for policing acitons.

The problem there is that Naboo and Alderaan are noted for being pacifistic planets. Therefore their militaries, compared to other planetary forces, would be on the low end.

The only really large defense forces I know of are the Security Fleets for the Drive Yards...

If I recall correctly, in the Hand of Thrawn series there is some mention of the Mon Cal system forces operating Mon Cal Star Cruisers (I think Leia mentions that the Mon Cals are thinking of sending some to defend the Bothan homeworld or something).

You mean to tell me they were capable of making their own Fleet AFTER the Rebellion/New Republic bought a large number of converted cruise ships? Zounds, where was this Mon Cal Fleet when the Quarren transported their Aquatic Battledroids, Crab Cannons, and Droid Subfighters to their mutual homeworld of Dac, surely they could've proved useful in cutting off the Quarren from the REST of the Confederacy.

Also in TIE Fighter, one of the factions in the 'civil war' (I can't remember the name) campaign have "Mon Cal Light Cruisers", hardly something just for a policing force. (Even though a game it should count as its not game mechanics, but rather plot, please correct me if I am mistaken on this.)

You're talking about AFTER the Clone Wars and AFTER the Mon Cals started supplying the Rebels, the only reason the Empire would police Dac, would to keep the Drive Yards out of Rebel hands, they didn't entirely succeed in this endeavor, but the Rebels still had to do it covertly and just couldn't build multiple MC Cruisers at one time.

So that gives us some indication of what a planetary/system defence force in Star Wars can actually be like.

No, it doesn't, it gives us an idea of what their Planetary Defense would be like after having Rebels buy many expensive Mon Cal Cruiser for a long time.

Most of the other Republic Powers consisted of the smaller Capital Ships like the Correllion Corvette

I'm sorry, but this is ludicrous. There are, at the very least, hundreds of planets in the OR with populations in the tens and hundreds of billions, and you're telling me that the defense forces of each of these planets consist of CORVETTES?!? Source?

Given the resource accumulation and building rates in the SW galaxy, PDF fleets of hundreds of vessels from Star Battlecruiser on down for the more affluent and populous governments is not unreasonable at all.

Lazarus wrote:

Most of the other Republic Powers consisted of the smaller Capital Ships like the Correllion Corvette

I'm sorry, but this is ludicrous. There are, at the very least, hundreds of planets in the OR with populations in the tens and hundreds of billions, and you're telling me that the defense forces of each of these planets consist of CORVETTES?!? Source?

Given the resource accumulation and building rates in the SW galaxy, PDF fleets of hundreds of vessels from Star Battlecruiser on down for the more affluent and populous governments is not unreasonable at all.

Can you name even a single system that's ever been shown to have a defense force consisting of ships significantly larger than Corvettes in the Naboo Blockade-Clone Wars Old Republic, barring those that are also the home system of companies like Kuat Drive Yards?

General Schatten wrote:

So that gives us some indication of what a planetary/system defence force in Star Wars can actually be like.

No, it doesn't, it gives us an idea of what their Planetary Defense would be like after having Rebels buy many expensive Mon Cal Cruiser for a long time.

I'm sorry, but I'm not aware of many other occasions in the EU where local planetary defence forces are mentioned, so I went with what I had. What I was trying to point out is that there are two ends of the spectrum, one, as you originally mentioned, is the Alderaanian/Naboo end where the forces are largely ceremonial. The other end is that of the Mon Cals after the Clone Wars, and the bigger drive yards during the CW, as you've also mentioned in reply.
It should then be safe to assume that the majority of planetary forces would fall somewhere in the middle of those two extremes. Bigger than a police force, but not up to that of the dedicated manufacturers of the equipment.

From ROTS:ICS and the TFN interview with Saxton (which is also official info), far-off systems don't get access to all the heavy war materials the rich, industrialized sectors like Kuat, Corellia and Humbarine have. Therefore they mostly have to make due with downscaled warships like the Rendili Dreadnaught etc.

Which makes it all the more amusing to see the Rendili Home Fleet in SW: Republic 70-71 only have five or six Dreadnaughts present at the Battle of Rendili. And I do believe one Acclamator was expected to tangle with all of them, at least until it got help.

VT-16 wrote:Which makes it all the more amusing to see the Rendili Home Fleet in SW: Republic 70-71 only have five or six Dreadnaughts present at the Battle of Rendili. And I do believe one Acclamator was expected to tangle with all of them, at least until it got help.

So, an Acclamator can be expected to fight six mini-dreadnaughts, just like it's larger cousin the Imperator can be expected to do the same with the full sized Dreads? Interesting...

What? I'm talking about the Rendili Dreadnaught, a.k.a. Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser. They're the downscaled dreadnaughts, being hundreds of meters long, rather than kilometers long.

and you're telling me that the defense forces of each of these planets consist of CORVETTES

Actually, that's mostly the neutered, pre-CW Republic Navy. They had armed Consular-class space cruisers, Corellian Star Shuttles, CR90 corvettes (described as a "mid-sized corvette"), some kind of rescue frigate, Carrack-class cruisers and Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers. Anything bigger would mostly belong to individual member planets and sectors. The Trade Federation restrictions on arms sales saw to that.

VT-16 wrote:What? I'm talking about the Rendili Dreadnaught, a.k.a. Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser. They're the downscaled dreadnaughts, being hundreds of meters long, rather than kilometers long.

Humour me a little, I haven't slept yet, are you saying that there's a scaled up Dreadnaught-class?

Actually, that's mostly the neutered, pre-CW Republic Navy. They had armed Consular-class space cruisers, Corellian Star Shuttles, CR90 corvettes (described as a "mid-sized corvette"), some kind of rescue frigate, Carrack-class cruisers and Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers. Anything bigger would mostly belong to individual member planets and sectors. The Trade Federation restrictions on arms sales saw to that.

So where are these bigger ships, again excluding companies like Kuat? (Yes, Rendili would fall under this category as well)

Humour me a little, I haven't slept yet, are you saying that there's a scaled up Dreadnaught-class?

Yeah, they're called Star Dreadnaughts. :P

Seriously, there's different standards and regional variances. A Rendili dreadnaught in the pre-CW era, is little more than 1/5 the size of a Trade Federation battleship etc.

So where are these bigger ships, again excluding companies like Kuat? (Yes, Rendili would fall under this category as well)

Rich, industrialized planets and sectors have them. Everyone else has to fend for themselves, thanks to trade embargos by entities like the Trade Federation.

With the Galactic Empire established, larger warships get more widespread in the galaxy.

General Schatten wrote: Can you name even a single system that's ever been shown to have a defense force consisting of ships significantly larger than Corvettes in the Naboo Blockade-Clone Wars Old Republic, barring those that are also the home system of companies like Kuat Drive Yards?

Since you mentioned the Clone Wars, Coruscant. The ROTS novelization mentions that there were still 3 frigate sized vessels from the home fleet. Considering that the N-squared law to warfae means the CIS would target the largest and most dangerous vessels first, and that in the CW cartoon we see the CIS fighting Venators before Ani's and Obi's fleet arrives it seems certain that Coruscant had several Star Destroyers, at least, defending the planet.
The presence of Anaxes, the speed of hyperdrive, and that during the Thrawn Trilogy the fleet responsible for Coruscant's defense was stationed in another system seems to indicate that most of a sector's defenses are at a centrally located fleet base which can respond to a crisis in the sector within minutes and since we haven't ever seen a fleet base in the movies it is rather natural that systems seem sparsely defended.

In the various sources on Humbarine's sad fate, it's noted that the sector's fleet was put under direct Republic control during the Wars and the mismanagement of its resources meant that when General Grievous started attacking the Core Worlds, the entire Humbarine Sector was overrun with CIS forces, and Humbarine itself was unable to properly be defended from attack.

NRS Guardian wrote:Since you mentioned the Clone Wars, Coruscant. The ROTS novelization mentions that there were still 3 frigate sized vessels from the home fleet.

Do you have a size for these frigates? Ship designations tend to be ambiguous, Rendili Dreadnaught-class Heavy Cruisers were smaller than the KDY Destroyers of the late Republic.

a Considering that the N-squared law to warfae means the CIS would target the largest and most dangerous vessels first, and that in the CW cartoon we see the CIS fighting Venators before Ani's and Obi's fleet arrives it seems certain that Coruscant had several Star Destroyers, at least, defending the planet.

Here's a quick and easy answer, were those Star Destroyers answerable to the Republic Navy or the Republic Security Forces?

The presence of Anaxes, the speed of hyperdrive, and that during the Thrawn Trilogy the fleet responsible for Coruscant's defense was stationed in another system seems to indicate that most of a sector's defenses are at a centrally located fleet base which can respond to a crisis in the sector within minutes and since we haven't ever seen a fleet base in the movies it is rather natural that systems seem sparsely defended.

I don't understand what your arguing in this paragraph, can you break it down please?

VT-16 wrote:Yeah, they're called Star Dreadnaughts.

I know of no Star Dreadnaughts that looked like the Dreadnaught-class, and the only Star Dreadnaught I know of from the Clone Wars was the Mandator-class which was a Kuat design, and the only one that may possibly look like the Dreadnaught Heavy Cruisers are the Rendili Battleships that from the Rebellion-era, however the only technical description I can find of it is that that were >1.6km.

Seriously, there's different standards and regional variances. A Rendili dreadnaught in the pre-CW era, is little more than 1/5 the size of a Trade Federation battleship etc.

And how many systems could afford them? They may have been cheap to an galaxy spanning government, but a sector or planetary government is a different story.

Rich, industrialized planets and sectors have them. Everyone else has to fend for themselves, thanks to trade embargos by entities like the Trade Federation.

I don't see what this tangent is about, but okay.

With the Galactic Empire established, larger warships get more widespread in the galaxy.

Wow? You mean building 25,000 1.6km starships will increase the frequency of seeing a warship!?

Without trying to get too drawn in, I consider it to simply be the case that the Republic military as a whole had both clones and non-clones, and it's simply misunderstanding (willful or not) that somehow the clones could comprise the whole. The existence of non-clone veterans of the Clone Wars, I thought would be an obvious enough proof, as well as the Jabiimi loyalists (who infamously Anakin Skywalker chose not to evacuate).

General Schatten wrote:I know of no Star Dreadnaughts that looked like the Dreadnaught-class

It was a joke. You thought there were multiple types of Rendili Dreadnaughts, and there isn't, I was only speaking of the Dreadnaught-class, and it's always been the same size. :P

And how many systems could afford them?

Utapau, for one, if you're talking of the Dreadnaught-class. And they had to assemble them on their own.

I don't see what this tangent is about, but okay.

You asked over and over again who had large warships in the galaxy, and I answered over and over again that only rich, industrialized governments built them. Provincial governments were stuck with third-rate warships, if even that.

Wow? You mean building 25,000 1.6km starships will increase the frequency of seeing a warship!? :P

No, large warships. Star Dreadnoughts and Star Battlecruisers. The kind that makes Star Destroyers smaller ships in the Imperial Navy.

I don't understand what your arguing in this paragraph, can you break it down please?

I believe VT-16 is attempting to point out that there is canon evidence for sector-fleet bases not necessarily being at the sector capital, or maybe even in a system at all; rather, if the base were in deep space equidistant from the sectors borders, the fleet could respond quickly to all areas of the sector in the same time. Consequently, this explains the apparent lack of defense fleets in many examples.

I might also point you towards the example of this in The Last Command, where the NR fleet base at Ord Pardron has this setup, and can send a fleet response to anywhere in it's sector of responsibility (such as to the Ando system). None of these systems had any defense forces to speak of on hand, as none of them are particularly valuable (Ukio is an agri-world), and so a shared fleet defends the whole sector.

Such a setup may be common in the less affluent areas of the galaxy, but less so in the Core and Inner/Mid rim. Remember the comic source from the OR era (I'm not well versed on comics, so I'm not sure which one), which featured a picture of a city planet (not necessarily Coruscant), with a Star Dreadnaught in orbit (it also had craft similar in appearance to TIEs). It's on Saxton's site somewhere...

Can you name even a single system that's ever been shown to have a defense force consisting of ships significantly larger than Corvettes in the Naboo Blockade-Clone Wars Old Republic, barring those that are also the home system of companies like Kuat Drive Yards?

So because two PACIFIST planets have minimal defense forces, that must therefore mean that ALL systems have the same minimal forces, unless they're home to KDY or Sienar or somesuch? As atg said, it is far more reasonable to assume that the average PDF lies somewhere between the Pacifist forces of Alderaan/Naboo and the military-industrial complexes of Kuat/Fondor etc.

SW Tales 21 (canon issue) Nomad. An "important system" is shown with a Star Dreadnought or Battlecruiser, multiple Acclamator like vessels, other capital ships and an early T.I.E. prototype.

Also, in FOC, when Kuat is attacked in the last story level, a Star Dreadnought and an accompanying fleet arrives a short while after the battle commences.

Additionally, in the Empire's heydays, 10% of the entire Imperial Navy was kept in reserve in the Core, for use against threats around the galaxy. (SWSB)

I had a nice response to all that typed out... Oh, well I was intending to conced that they have things bigger than a Corvette, but I doubt anything the size of an ISD or even comparable.

Yes, why bother listening to sources that say otherwise.

Because you're listing systems like the Empires favorite shipbuilders as evidence...

Humbarine was a Republic world, and it wasn't noted for being a ship manufacturer like Kuat or Corellia. It was just heavily industrialized and rich.

Then there's the Trade Federation, which used the Lucrehulk-class core ships as modular cores for their battleships, cruisers and destroyers (AOTC:ICS).

The IGBC also had a fleet of Munificent-class frigates before the CW. The Tapani Sector produced its own frigates, carriers and fighters (but that might have been in the GCW era).

In the Marvel series, both the Nagai and the Tof built large fleets to fight their internal battles and later on, invade other parts of the galaxy.

10,000 years before the films, the Kumauri Empire in the Outer Rim produced the Kumauri Battleship, which seemed to have been a multi-kilometer long class.