Moderator: Vympel
Hell, if I pointed out all those little white lies many of these guys employ, my webpage would more about "them" than "me"!AdmiralKanos wrote:Perhaps Lord Poe should use Edam's rebuttals as a textbook example of the red-herring fallacy. Notice how Edam tries to introduce a complete red-herring (total luminosity of the star, as opposed to surface radiation intensity) in an attempt to:
A) Denigrate Mr. Poe's scientific knowledge
B) Cast doubt on the conclusions
The fact that the star's total luminosity is a separate issue from the surface radiation intensity (which he concedes to be a function of surface temperature and hence colour) and consequent danger of being close to that surface is quietly glossed over, perhaps in the hope that no one will notice. It's really quite clever, in a dishonest sort of way.
No, I'll just do what I always do when you misrepresent evidence; rub your face in the ACTUAL FACTS. But I won't bother reposting it here. That's why I made a webpage to point to showcasing your bullshit, so I wouldn't have to defend the same point over and over again when you decide to dust off old arguments every three months:Lord Edam wrote:No, Wayne, Lord Edam believes seven blue-giant stars and being further away from them than from Athega means the ISDs encounter less energy. Of course, you'll ignore this like youhave every other time, prefering instead to believe your idiotic "more power at any range" simply because there's 7 stars instead of 1.Lord Poe wrote: Thanks, RFoH! BTW, Lord Edam believes that seven blue-giant stars are less powerful than Athega was in the "sunlight" category...
Better be careful. He might get mad and email the author of the sources you use and get them declared non-canon by that same author!Lord Poe wrote:No, I'll just do what I always do when you misrepresent evidence; rub your face in the ACTUAL FACTS. But I won't bother reposting it here. That's why I made a webpage to point to showcasing your bullshit, so I wouldn't have to defend the same point over and over again when you decide to dust off old arguments every three months:Lord Edam wrote:No, Wayne, Lord Edam believes seven blue-giant stars and being further away from them than from Athega means the ISDs encounter less energy. Of course, you'll ignore this like youhave every other time, prefering instead to believe your idiotic "more power at any range" simply because there's 7 stars instead of 1.Lord Poe wrote: Thanks, RFoH! BTW, Lord Edam believes that seven blue-giant stars are less powerful than Athega was in the "sunlight" category...
http://h4h.com/louis/suns.html
Don't expect a reply. Once he starts facing significant resistance he usually hides until it blows overAdmiralKanos wrote:Gotta love that nitpicking
How have you shown that it is wrong to use colour to determine radiation intensity at the surface hence radiation bombardment for a ship at any given distance from the surface, when you have conceded yourself that it DOES determine radiation intensity at the surface?
How do you determine radiation bombardment for a ship at any given distance from the surface?AdmiralKanos wrote: How have you shown that it is wrong to use colour to determine radiation intensity at the surface hence radiation bombardment for a ship at any given distance from the surface, when you have conceded yourself that it DOES determine radiation intensity at the surface?
Gee, one would guess that the word "giant" would point you in the right direction... not to mention that there are 7 of them, plus that they are BLUE, against one (1) single yellow star, which could or could not be a giant.Lord Edam wrote:Hasn't changed much at all in this area. The colour and size of the star are indicative of the amount of energy they put out.Slartibartfast wrote:Last time I checked, the size and color of the star were indicative of the amount of energy they put out. Maybe astronomy has changed in the last few months?Lord Edam wrote: Well, that really depends on the amount of energy the yellow star is actually putting out, doesn't it?
So, please tell us how this leads us to conclude 7 blue giants do emit more energy you know than one yellow star. when no information was given regarding the size or luminosity
Lets take three more starsAll we know about the seven blue giants is that they are blue giants. All we know about Athega is that it is bright yellow. For sake of argument, lets take two possible real stars.
The blue giants are all like bellatrix. Luminosity~1000 sol each,
Athega is like Polaris, luminosity~2400 sol.
Wow, could you be any more condescending, asshole?Lord Edam wrote:How do you determine radiation bombardment for a ship at any given distance from the surface?
Why, by adding up all the radiation from the various bits of surface that are hitting the ship (which would be every single bit of surface that the ship can see, to a greater or lesser extent)]
Actually, you don't simultaneously need all of thse things. If you know the luminosity and the distance, that is all of the information you need to determine radiation intensity at the ship's altitude. Conversely, if you don't have the luminosity but you know the ship's distance from the surface relative to solar radius (eg- it's 2 solar radii away from the surface), then you can use simple geometric ratios to determine that the bombardment intensity at the ship's altitude is 1/9 of the surface radiation intensity. You do understand simple geometry, right Edam?Hang on... doesn't that mean we need to know the size of the star as well as radiation intensity at its surface? Well, yes, it does. We need to know the size of the star, the power output per unit area, the distance of the ship from the star and the size of the ship.
Maybe you should read the post I made "links for luminosity data". It shows exactly where you can find luminosity data for some stars.Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:Edam: I have no clue where the fuck did you get those luminosity figures for the Blue Giants,
Note that - the brightest known (OI class, blue supergiants). Simply knowing a star is a blue giant is not enough to tell you how luminous it is. As already demonstrated, blue giants can be as low as bellatrix, a BIII (normal giant) starthe brightest known Blue Giant is 1,4 million times the luminosity of Sol,
Do not confuse "average luminosity" with "luminosity of every star of this type"and the more common type of which are Rigel and Spica is 20 000 times the luminosity of Sol.
Of course I do, since my cause is that we don't know enough to conclude which case had the ISDs being bombarded by the most radiation.How conveniently you use those low numbers from Bellatrix to support your cause.
Wrong. From your own link, 50,000 Sol.Lets take three more stars
Rigel,Luminosity 20000 Sol
Wrong. 2,200 sol (as given in two seperate links I've supplied. Please feel free to give an actual link that significantly contrdicts them)Spica, Luminosity 20000 Sol
Assuming you've actually got the correct luminosity there yep*, though that is more likely to be something like a , but then Bellatrix is a blue giant - specifically class BIII, and thus makes my point nicely.10 Lacetra,Luminosity 1,400,000 Sol
Wow, a bit higher than Bellatrix aint it?
Points to forum description.Darth Wong wrote:Wow, could you be any more condescending, asshole?
Seems the links I gave prove you wrong on that, Wong. I'm arguing that blue giants are blue giants. Class III stars.PS. BTW, as others have pointed out, you are basically arguing that a "blue giant" was a tiny dwarf star
Yes they can but the average is much above Bellatrix, you cant just use the lowest number for your convenience.Note that - the brightest known (OI class, blue supergiants). Simply knowing a star is a blue giant is not enough to tell you how luminous it is. As already demonstrated, blue giants can be as low as bellatrix, a BIII (normal giant) star
offcourse not, average means that that is the luminosity which most of that type of stars have.Do not confuse "average luminosity" with "luminosity of every star of this type"
from the very same page you linked, by clicking on "Rigel" we can see Rigel's luminosity is 50,000 sol, not 20,000. Similarly, from other sites, we can see Spica's luminosity is 2,200 sol rather than 20,000 (confirming the link I gave earlier that you don't to see)
So if low luminosity blue giants are rare then you must use the lowest known number for those giants in Dark Apprentice?Unfortunately it does not work that way, you would need to use the average luminosity known for Blue giants which is 20 000 sol (note Super giant is still a giant you know)Of course I do, since my cause is that we don't know enough to conclude which case had the ISDs being bombarded by the most radiation.
It is the correct luminosity moron, directly from the site.Yup Bellatrix is a Blue Giant, so is Rigel, your point?Assuming you've actually got the correct luminosity there yep*, though that is more likely to be something like a , but then Bellatrix is a blue giant - specifically class BIII, and thus makes my point nicely.
* 10 Lacetra is apparently the spectral standard for O9V stars, main sequence "dwarf" stars by the page you gave. Maybe you shouldn't be using it in comparison with blue giants after all.(source)
Yes, we prefer honesty, not your games. How does that excuse your bullshit?Lord Edam wrote:Points to forum description.Darth Wong wrote:Wow, could you be any more condescending, asshole?
Wrong, asshole. You do not need to know the size of the star; you need only know the ratio of distance; no absolute figure is necessary. You snipped the example because it defeated your argument, dumb-fuck.You'll notice from your explanation that I've snipped that you still need to know the size of the star somewhere. In your case you've hidden it in the distance relative to solar radii, but it's still there. Maybe I was right all along.
No, you're looking for the smallest, most anomalous blue star you can find and then acting as though it's typical of all blue-giants across the board.Seems the links I gave prove you wrong on that, Wong. I'm arguing that blue giants are blue giants. Class III stars.PS. BTW, as others have pointed out, you are basically arguing that a "blue giant" was a tiny dwarf star
No, you're arguing that surface radiation intensity is a useless figure and now you're desperately trying to backtrack.(actually, I'm not. I'm arguing that simply because an ISD can get close to a weak star doesn't mean it can get as close to a stronger star irrespective of colour, but that clearly hasn't registered with you yet)
Dark ApprenticeLord Edam wrote:Note that - the brightest known (OI class, blue supergiants). Simply knowing a star is a blue giant is not enough to tell you how luminous it is. As already demonstrated, blue giants can be as low as bellatrix, a BIII (normal giant) starthe brightest known Blue Giant is 1,4 million times the luminosity of Sol,
Assuming you've actually got the correct luminosity there yep*, though that is more likely to be something like a , but then Bellatrix is a blue giant - specifically class BIII, and thus makes my point nicely.10 Lacetra,Luminosity 1,400,000 Sol
Wow, a bit higher than Bellatrix aint it?
Yes, he is, and if he'd posted that himself rather than continuing to talk about bluegiants (which are not blue supergiants) then I'd have agreed with him several posts back.Lord Poe wrote:Dark Apprentice
pg.342: He piloted the Sun Crusher toward the bloated super-giants at the heart of the nebula.
Better recheck that "point" of yours. RFoH is correct here.
me: you need to know the size and luminosity of the star and distance from it before you can say anythingDarth Wong wrote: Wrong, asshole. You do not need to know the size of the star; you need only know the ratio of distance; no absolute figure is necessary.
Spica, which was given as an example of blue stars by another posted, wasn't much brighter.No, you're looking for the smallest, most anomalous blue star you can find
I think I know what I'm arguing Mike. The fact that you have you insist I'm arguing something thatsounds similar but is really different shows your posts are nothing more than strawmen.No, you're arguing that surface radiation intensity is a useless figure and now you're desperately trying to backtrack.
The average for the entire blue class, ranging from dwarfs right up to supergiants.Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote: Yes they can but the average is much above Bellatrix, you cant just use the lowest number for your convenience.
Average means you add them all up and divide by the number of stars. A smaller number of ridiculously high power stars would swamp the larger number of lower power ones. most stars could be (And, as per HR diagram linked earlier in which each dot represents a characterised real star, are) much lower power than your averageoffcourse not, average means that that is the luminosity which most of that type of stars have.
No, but before we can make any comparison of a situation where we knwo ISDs are damaged and a situation where we know ISDs were not damaged we should look to see if there's anything that could explain it. Like the stars not being as luminous as we think, or the ISDs not being as close to them in the second example as they are inthe first. You know, take into account all the variables that affect the radiation hitting the ship.So if low luminosity blue giants are rare then you must use the lowest known number for those giants in Dark Apprentice?
mmm...from the same site you got teh luminosity of Rigel wrong (it's higher thanyousaid) and the luminosity of Spica wrong (it's over an 20 times lower). I don't think 10Lac is right either.It is the correct luminosity moron, directly from the site.
That we cannot conclude the ISDs were getting more energy from the seven blue giants than they were from Athega simply from their colour, as it has been all along.Yup Bellatrix is a Blue Giant, so is Rigel, your point?
How does this change what I've been saying all along? You can list bright stars as much as you want. When it comes down to it we have examples of ships near stars from SW. In some of them ships are damaged, in others they aren't. knowing simply the colour of the stars is clearly useless in these cases - we need to know more to work out why the ships are damaged in one case but not the other, to work out if the energy from one is overloading the shieldsYeah it could be so, from Nasa
The HST has found a star, in the Pistol Nebula, that is currently the brightest known in the Milky Way, being ten million times more luminous than the Sun, and 100 times more massive.
Like Spica would be for its type? Oh, no, you got thaty wrong, didn't you?So 10 Lacetra would likely be something of an average for type O stars
Blue Supergiants are hotter than Yellow stars you know.That we cannot conclude the ISDs were getting more energy from the seven blue giants than they were from Athega simply from their colour, as it has been all along.
No shit. But is taking ships at similar distances from each, does that mean that they will be getting less energy from the yellow star?Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:Blue Supergiants are hotter than Yellow stars you know.That we cannot conclude the ISDs were getting more energy from the seven blue giants than they were from Athega simply from their colour, as it has been all along.
Great. Some blue stars are more luminous than some yellow stars.Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:Oh for fucks sake, look at the site i gave you, Rigel is a Blue SUPER GIANT and it has luminosity of 50 000 sol.Those 7 stars were super giants as are Type O and B stars.Im tired of this goddamn argument, we have an exact quote from the book saying what type of stars they are and then we have luminosity numbers for Blue SuperGiants from which we take the average luminosity for that type of stars.
