ColonialAdmiral wrote:What do you mean the cough didn't make sense? He had his fucking insides crushed by the force!
But we only know this from the clone wars cartoons, which most people didn't watch, there's no way to know that from the films.
I personally think Lucas should have morphed all three sub villains (Maul, Dooku, Grievous) into one person and have him feature more heavily. One of the big things the prequels lacked in my opinion was a continuous terrifying bad guy, Sidious was just too mysterious and intent on befriending Anakin to be scary.
That is KIND OF THE POINT. Palps is THE PHANTOM MENACE!
Lord Sidious is the one pulling the strings behind both sides of the war all the time playing the part of the friendly old grandpa figure to Anakin. Isn't such phsycotic determination to get what you want scary to you. Isn't his tossing away of crony after crony make Palpitine out what he is a Homicidal Maniac with the skills and position to cause and did cause the deaths of trillians. Remember most of Grevious' evil acts were done under the order of someone he knew as Darth Sidious.
Doesn't a vile, evil puppetmaster like that SCARE YOU?
Last edited by Isolder74 on 2007-05-08 11:55am, edited 1 time in total.
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Yes Palpatine is scary in the manipulative political schemes for power way, but he just doesn't have the Darth Vader effect.
As you say he is a phantom menace, not the menace that's in your face chasing your ship down in the cold vacuum of space and then cutting off your arm when he gets pissed off that you scuffed his armour. Maul and co could have been that menace but they kept being killed and being replaced, which brakes any fear or sense of dread that their supposed to be carrying.
How was Greivous supposed to be scary for example when he keeps running away from our heroes the minute we meet him, if he had been involved in TPM, say killing QuiGon, and had fought Obi and Ani at Geonosis then his character would have been much more developed, with his 'bad arseness' being established so there would be some reason to his existence other than a cool special effects bit at the end.
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That's the whole point. Villains aren't always scenery-chomping juggernauts. The most dangerous ones are the ones who manipulate others to do their dirty work.
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Oh certainty, Palpatine is an excellent manipulative, behind the scenes style bad guy and that in itself is refreshing from most films, however Maul and Grievous are "scenery chomping juggernauts" and their role is lessened by the fact that they get killed pretty much immediatly after we see them.
I'm not trying to suggest that the Maul/Grievous character should be taking over from Palpatines role as galactic manipulative backstabbing bastard but in my opinion having the lesser Sith/half droid generals killed off so quickly lessens any attachment of fear or power to their characters. Did you really care when Obi went up against Grievous? Although an epic special effects piece and of vital importance to the plot it had little real impact for me on a character basis, Grievous spent most of it running away.
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From the story's point of view, it doesn't really stand well to have a single major badguy ala Vader running around spreading fear and terror. That was Vader's M.O. Vader was/is famous, but you don't hear about many great villians in the OT save for the Emperor himself. I'm rather glad Lucas didn't try to make one that was as formitable as Vader. Vader was something special, and to try and equal him with another 3 movies with a similar enemy would have caused a lot of story problems.
I was positively thrilled with Grevious died BECAUSE he was such an over-the-top cliche, and I'm certainly glad that he wasn't there for 3 movies. Maul had the character depth of a potato, but had Lucas expanded on him, he might have been more terrifying than Vader, thus negating Vader's legendary-like status. Dooku is the most eligable in my mind to be a possible 3 movie guy, but he never seemed to seem all that threatening to me.
From the Clone Wars cartoon. Count Dooku told Grevious while training him, "If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. For if any one element is lacking it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them, only then will you ensure victory." Seriously Episode 1 and 2 should have been condensed into one movie and the Clone Wars cartoons should have been Episode 2. Having not seen the Clone Wars cartoons untill after I first saw Episode 3, I can say with absolute certainty that watching them before makes Episode 3 even better, especially with regard to Grevious. It really is a shame a large portion of the fanbase never saw them. (of course it makes the "3 million clones" thing even more laughable but thats a whole different topic.)
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Of course the idea seeing one Jedi act like they did in Clone Wars and still even needing a clone army seems laughable, but thats a whole different topic, if you know what I mean.
Grevious lasted in the fight too long if you ask me. I was expecting him to get telekineticaly tossed around and smashed into pieces. Yet he manged to close within saber range. Later he kicked Kenobi around even though the Jedi could have simply flung him over the cliff with a thought.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Sarevok wrote:Grevious lasted in the fight too long if you ask me. I was expecting him to get telekineticaly tossed around and smashed into pieces. Yet he manged to close within saber range. Later he kicked Kenobi around even though the Jedi could have simply flung him over the cliff with a thought.
Problem, Grievous' claws have been used to climb up the side of Coruscant's skyscrapers, what's to stop him from just digging in?
Grievous uses fear, surprise and intimidation to upset the Jedi before he actually engages them. Without being calm and centered, their connection to the Force is tenous, and without the Force, a Jedi is little more than an ordinary being.
Without those three factors on his side, just as Dooku said, it would be wise for him to flee. Not only did he not gain those three advantages against Obi-Wan, it happened quite the other way around.
Grievous put up one hell of a fight, but ultimately did indeed try to flee.. though not quite fast enough.
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ColonialAdmiral wrote:My problem with Grevious was that in the Cartoon, he was a hardcore killing machine. Then, when they put him into the movie, he was kind of a coward. (Not that I would want to face two Jedi, with my Internals being crushed, or risk jumping out the window of a starship in the middle of a battle) Evan in the final battle, he almost immediatly ran away, on the giant walking motor-cycle thingie, although he did almost kill Obi-wan with the whole lifting up crushing neck move. Just remember what Grevious was able to do, evan while he was damaged.
He acted aas his character was supposed to. Dooku trained him to only fight Jedi head on when he had advantages working in his favor, and he is consistently referred to as a coward by Jedi throughout the novels. That is part of what made the character great, as he wasn't just some wanked out cyborg.
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I like how they brand Grevious a coward, considering his Force-less tactics do indeed allow him to get up close and personal against multiple Jedi when he is successful, and up until that point, his style was indeed effective.
Pride is a bitch when you don't want to admit that someone with a handicap is handing you your ass
That said, he died the way his character, like Maul and Tyranus, was meant to: As a tool that outlived its usefulness. Albeit he had more pyrotechnics in his chest cavity.
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Thinking about it, his death makes him seem even more bad ass. He got shot in the lungs/heart/etc. and kept advancing, though greatly slowed. It took three shots and total incineration of the remaining organic bits of him before he died.
Why he didn't just toss Kenobi off the platform? Cockiness is my best guess. Or he (re: the team of writers) didn't think of it.
Morilore wrote:
Are you kidding? Grievous's death was awesome. His eyes exploded.
This is true
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ColonialAdmiral wrote:What do you mean the cough didn't make sense? He had his fucking insides crushed by the force!
Because Grievious has been said not to require atmosphere to breathe. That's why he presumably survived the walk to the escape pod.
Frankly, Grievious death in the movie has to be the best in ROTS. Miscellanous guards and wits, a one on one intense fight scene that looks cool(unlike say Windu against Palpatine) and a thrilling chase scene resulting in the villian immolation. What's to complain?:D
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Lucas made Grievous cough so that people would know he wasn't just a robot. Deal with it.
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Napoleon the Clown wrote:Thinking about it, his death makes him seem even more bad ass. He got shot in the lungs/heart/etc. and kept advancing, though greatly slowed. It took three shots and total incineration of the remaining organic bits of him before he died.
Why he didn't just toss Kenobi off the platform? Cockiness is my best guess. Or he (re: the team of writers) didn't think of it.
In the novelisation he tried it. Kenobi used to force to pull himself to the deck more quickly rather than going over the edge.
DPDarkPrimus wrote:Lucas made Grievous cough so that people would know he wasn't just a robot. Deal with it.
Tartakovsky found out about that/knew it and tried to make it legitimate. Also, in the CW cartoon Grievous was fighting and winning then, especially in the Outer Rim sieges. Over Coruscant, a Republic world would be different for Ep III and he was fighting against Obi-Wan and Anakin, who had a massive legend.
The big problem with Grevious in Episode III was that he didnt come across as being a real threat.
The Clone Wars Animated series does an excellent job at introducing us to Grevious and establishing his character, but I think the movie relies too heavily on this series in its portrayal of Grevious. Its as if the movies expects that everyone in the audience has seen the Clone Wars and should be familiar with him. While I think it was rather neat that the Clone Wars Series ends right where Episode III begins, not everyone has seen the series and these people were somewhat confused by Grevious.
Grevious is supposed to be this big, badass, Jedi killer, and in the Clone Wars he is, but in the movie he is always seen retreating and on the defensive. The only Jedi he is seen fighting in the movie are our heroes, Anakin and Obi-Wan, and we know he is not supposed to win against the heroes. What the movie needed was to show Grevious killing some ordinary Jedi. I know that one of the cut scenes had Grevious killing Shaak-Ti, but this was more of an execution than then a fight. The movie needed to show Grevious in a fierce Lightsaber duel with your average Jedi and defeating them.
This could easily have been done as Anakin and Obi-Wan were on board Grevious's ship before they find Palpatine. They could have shown other Jedi fighters in the hanger to show that other Jedi had already boarded the ship. Then as our heroes make their way through the ship, they come across a few dead Jedi before encountering Grevious fighting a small group of Jedi in a corridor. Grevious is overpowering the Jedi, and as Obi-Wan and Anakin rush to help, some blast door close separating Anakin and Obi-Wan from Grevious, but before they can find a way to open the blast doors, some droids show up and start firing.
I believe such a scene would not have altered the film to much and would have gone a long way to help establish Grevious as a credible threat to the general movie audience. Maybe the Shaak-Ti scene would have had the same effect... but the movie really needed to show something to establish why Grevious was dangerous and how he could defeat Jedi.
We all know that Obi-Wan was able to defeat Grevious so easily because he saw right through Grevious fear and intimidation tactics. Grevious needs fear and intimidation to win, but this is never really explained to the general movie audience.
Macross wrote:I believe such a scene would not have altered the film to much and would have gone a long way to help establish Grevious as a credible threat to the general movie audience. Maybe the Shaak-Ti scene would have had the same effect... but the movie really needed to show something to establish why Grevious was dangerous and how he could defeat Jedi.
I think that even the inclusion of the Shaak-Tii plot would have adequetely developed his character. It would have expanded upon his vile, merciless nature, and played into his established style of combat; IIRC, Grevious attempts to lure Anakin and Obi-Wan into a trap with the other Jedi Master in the deleted scene. It is true, though, that a few throw-away lines about General Grevious' record and modi operandi for the audience's benefit couldn't have hurt.
Of course, I think the whole opening of the movie would have flowed better if they had included that plot thread in place of the buzz droid confrontation.
I agree. It would have been nice to have had a demonstatration or even passing mention of just how deadly Grievous was when he had fear, surprise, and itimidation on his side.
I will grant that he was in poor shape after being brushed by Mace Windu, and that could easily influence his fighting. In the cartoons he was immensely acrobatic in his fighting, yet the movie not so much. Mace's little trick may have been responsible for this.
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A brief scene of Grievous performing his best Jedi Blender 2000 impersonation on some nameless Jedi boarders on the Invisible Hand would, I agree, probably add to the dramatic intensity of Episode III on all levels.
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"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star
I wonder what would have happened in the SW universe if Grevious had executed Obi-wan and Anikin when he had them captured on the Invisible Hand.......
There probably wouldn't be an empire, because he could have executed Palpatine as well. Just makes you think how lucky people in Starwars are....A few mistakes here and it's all over...
ColonialAdmiral wrote:I wonder what would have happened in the SW universe if Grevious had executed Obi-wan and Anikin when he had them captured on the Invisible Hand.......
There probably wouldn't be an empire, because he could have executed Palpatine as well. Just makes you think how lucky people in Starwars are....A few mistakes here and it's all over...
He wouldn't have executed Palpatine because he had orders not to, IIRC.
You honestly think Palpatine, as Sideous, would say "capture and kill me"?
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