Attacking a criminal during a robbery

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2007-07-18 06:04pm

Actually I don't think it was particularly smart of me; I didn't even think about it, I just did it because I was pissed off at a very sucky day already and just wanted to get home, take a shower, and go to bed. It was nothing so cool as "yeah I can take him" and more just "fuck this stupid SHIT!" that went through my mind.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-07-18 06:09pm

I didn't say a robber would likely kill witnesses.

I said there's a chance. And a ski mask costs ten bucks, and if the guy isn't wearing a ski mask I have to assume there's a great chance either he's a moron or he's a killer. And if there's a chance, sorry, got to go down fighting or running, one of the two.

The idea "don't fight" reminds me of retarded rape prevention that says go limp if someone tries to rape you. Sometimes you have to fight, sometimes you don't, it all depends. But the decision better be fast, since if you're fighting it's all about who gets the first move and it'll be over in seconds. It's not like the movies where a fight lasts half an hour. People have already mentioned their experiences, but I'd like to add that most people's pain tolerances are total shit and you can always go for the eyes or kick the balls, so whoever makes the first hit has a supreme advantage if all other factors are equal. Even if you're a heavy set man and punch someone in the solar plexus, it's probably over, since while he's buckling in pain you can get another few hits off, grab his nipples, kick his balls, gouge his eyes. All the dirty shit Jackie Chan never does.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-07-18 06:10pm

Brian, you'd fight someone for notes? That's the height of stupidity. No notes are worth fighting over, I'm sorry. It's just not worth it. Your pen is not mightier than the knife, regardless of the sayings to the effect. And I know criminals have no ethics, that's why they are committing a crime. However, if he wants the money, let him have the money. He's either scared and dangerous because of the skittishness or calm and collected and dangerous because he's practiced. In either case, unless you break his 'plan' like the Duchess did, which causes a shift in the momentum, you're better off forking it over.

And, did I say, give the rapist what he wants? I said "hand over the money or shoes." I specifically said if they want more than the money, you don't give it in. You certainly don't GO anywhere with them. And if you're out of arm's reach, you're probably in a safe distance to take off running and get somewhere public.

And the reason it's not worth fighting over a wallet is that it can always be replaced, and you never have complete control over a bad situation. All you need to be is unlucky once, and it's not a dice-roll you should really consider making. You may be a superbadass with a pen, but I certainly wouldn't advise most people to fight someone when they only want the 25 bucks in your wallet.

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2007-07-18 06:11pm

I have had to fight off several attacks before. A few years ago I was jumped by two guys outside my house and managed to fight them off long enough for me to run inside. Just last year I was trying to get back a stolen pencil and the thief attempted to stab me with it. He ended up with both hands in vice grips and an elbow jamming into his throat. However, those were mainly low-level attacks. Hardly in the realm of handguns. It does show what an able-bodied person can do to an attacker of similar size, though.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-07-18 06:14pm

chitoryu12 wrote:I have had to fight off several attacks before. A few years ago I was jumped by two guys outside my house and managed to fight them off long enough for me to run inside. Just last year I was trying to get back a stolen pencil and the thief attempted to stab me with it. He ended up with both hands in vice grips and an elbow jamming into his throat. However, those were mainly low-level attacks. Hardly in the realm of handguns. It does show what an able-bodied person can do to an attacker of similar size, though.

How many people are going to be qualified to defend themselves versus a mugger though? I may be confident in my abilities, having taken and helped teach self-defense courses in the past, but your average person is not served well by trying to fight with a crazyperson or a guy with a blade. I thought we were discussing the ethics and logic of these attacks not specific instances where we or others we knew got lucky and beat some guys.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-07-18 06:20pm

See but that's the problem Covenant -- there's not always a set answer to different situations.

Case in point, Mike mentioned one time an aggressive peddler. He mentioned that the peddler was so large and aggressive, that no doubt many weaker men and women gave him what he wanted. Maybe a lot of stronger men too just to avoid a fight. Mike confronted the man, and he didn't expect that. The man backed off. Now how many men gave this peddler what he wanted just because they thought money wasn't worth standing up?

So you can't say, just because he wants money, it's not worth it. It all depends on the situation. Unless you can read his mind, you don't know it'll stop there at all. A guy with a knife -- what if he'll attack you after you give him the money? Personally I'd reach into my pocket, pull out my wallet and keys at the same time, then go for his eye. I live in a dangerous neighborhood with a lot of drug deals and dead people every few months, so I've actually given a thought to this and if a man without a ski mask comes up to me I'll assume he has the intention of killing me after he takes my money.

And it may be a shock to you, but for some people money is not easily replaced. Neither are notes. To some people, it's worth fighting for. If I was rich I wouldn't give a shit about bad guys taking my wallet from me, but since I'm poor... I might have shit, but it's my shit and I don't want people to take it from me since it's all I have.

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2007-07-18 06:20pm

Covenant wrote:
chitoryu12 wrote:I have had to fight off several attacks before. A few years ago I was jumped by two guys outside my house and managed to fight them off long enough for me to run inside. Just last year I was trying to get back a stolen pencil and the thief attempted to stab me with it. He ended up with both hands in vice grips and an elbow jamming into his throat. However, those were mainly low-level attacks. Hardly in the realm of handguns. It does show what an able-bodied person can do to an attacker of similar size, though.
How many people are going to be qualified to defend themselves versus a mugger though? I may be confident in my abilities, having taken and helped teach self-defense courses in the past, but your average person is not served well by trying to fight with a crazyperson or a guy with a blade. I thought we were discussing the ethics and logic of these attacks not specific instances where we or others we knew got lucky and beat some guys.

Ethics and logic also include whether or not you would actually be able to do anything effective aside from provide a distraction. A scrawny person would do nothing more than irritate the robber and possibly get him killed, whereas a 6'4 ex-boxer will easily down an assailant. It's suicide to try and fight if you can't do shit.

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2007-07-18 06:24pm

Brianeyci Wrote:

I live in a dangerous neighborhood with a lot of drug deals and dead people every few months, so I've actually given a thought to this and if a man without a ski mask comes up to me I'll assume he has the intention of killing me after he takes my money.

Just curious. Where are you? Jane and Finch? Parkdale?

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-07-18 06:34pm

brianeyci wrote:Case in point, Mike mentioned one time an aggressive peddler. He mentioned that the peddler was so large and aggressive, that no doubt many weaker men and women gave him what he wanted. Maybe a lot of stronger men too just to avoid a fight. Mike confronted the man, and he didn't expect that. The man backed off. Now how many men gave this peddler what he wanted just because they thought money wasn't worth standing up?

That is a peddler. Standing up to an aggressive, large seller of things is not the same as confronting someone who is already threatening your life.

brianeyci wrote:So you can't say, just because he wants money, it's not worth it. It all depends on the situation. Unless you can read his mind, you don't know it'll stop there at all. A guy with a knife -- what if he'll attack you after you give him the money? Personally I'd reach into my pocket, pull out my wallet and keys at the same time, then go for his eye. I live in a dangerous neighborhood with a lot of drug deals and dead people every few months, so I've actually given a thought to this and if a man without a ski mask comes up to me I'll assume he has the intention of killing me after he takes my money.

You should always assume that he's going to want to hurt you, so being prepared is fine, but keys to the eyes is not a very good strategy versus angry man with a knife. It's just not. You'd be better off taking the wallet out and tossing it off to the side. If he wants the cash, he can have it, and then you get to run. You need to be prepared to defend yourself, but unless you can do so with your fists, you're better of TRYING the "Here's the cash" route. If he doesn't say anything, and just comes towards you, then you should be prepared to run or deliver the first shot, since he's not asking you, he's just going for it.

I'm not saying there's never a time to fight, or to be unaware of the ramifications of that. I've been very clear--if he asks for cash, you hand it over. If someone is robbing a store, they'll probably just rob the store and run away. You need to make a decision quickly, but nearly every time, the money in your pocket is not worth the threat of getting stabbed to death in an alley. If he asks for the cash, just toss the wallet. If he asks for the shoes, fine. If he wants more, or wants you to come with him, or something like that, then you fight back. But outside of specific instances where attacker A has chewed off more he can handle B, where you can thump the guy or happen to be ex-Infantry or something, it's usually smarter to attempt to hand it over.

brianeyci wrote:And it may be a shock to you, but for some people money is not easily replaced. Neither are notes. To some people, it's worth fighting for. If I was rich I wouldn't give a shit about bad guys taking my wallet from me, but since I'm poor... I might have shit, but it's my shit and I don't want people to take it from me since it's all I have.

Eh, you can fight for any dumbass reason you feel like I suppose, but notes and money are all more easily replaced than your limbs and life. You're going to be losing more money in health expenses and time out from the stabbings or beatings than you would from the cash.

Now, this is all if the fight doesn't go well. Fights can go well, and you might get off scott-free and healthy. The point is, it might go sour, and you might get hurt. I can't think of many reasons why I should put my ass in the fryer for the pocket change or notes I have. No matter how broke you are, slightly broker is better than dead.

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2007-07-18 06:35pm

chitoryu12 wrote:Just last year I was trying to get back a stolen pencil and the thief attempted to stab me with it. He ended up with both hands in vice grips and an elbow jamming into his throat. However, those were mainly low-level attacks. Hardly in the realm of handguns. It does show what an able-bodied person can do to an attacker of similar size, though.

...The physics of that one are making me question that, particularly over a stolen pencil.

chitoryu12 wrote:A scrawny person would do nothing more than irritate the robber and possibly get him killed, whereas a 6'4 ex-boxer will easily down an assailant. It's suicide to try and fight if you can't do shit.

The black and white fallacy inherent above is making me suspicious, especially coupled with the quote above. One's training matters more than one's physique, unless one's physique is grossly different than one in reasonable shape.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-07-18 06:43pm

Sorry I was not using the right word, it wasn't peddler it was beggar. I use the two words almost interchangeably but they don't really mean the same thing.

As for fighting let's look at this from two perspectives. Personally, my life is my own and what I do to risk it is my own business. If I think that failing Calculus will be the end of my life, then so be it. Economically and privately it would be the end of my life, so to me that is worth fighting for. For other people, it's other things, and that's their decision.

Publicly, what kind of message should police be sending to the public? Don't resist, hand over the money? But that does not work, because there's no one size fits all solution. Moreover, it creates a belief that one does not need to be physically aware, aware of surroundings, alert, street smart because all you need to do to stay safe is appease a robber. Instead, look at the proper message: fight if you have to, but try to run. Now what kind of message is that? That's saying to the public, take charge of your own safety, and there's dangerous people who will kill you.

That's why I don't like the "hand it over" message at all. It ignores specific circumstances, and is not useful as a public policy decision at all. I dispute the idea that resisting ends up with more probability of getting hurt. More likely a quick determined response ends up breaking the robber's "plan" and gives you a chance to run.

This is not macho bullshit. This is saying, handing it over is not a guarantee of safety and you should never assume it is.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2007-07-18 07:13pm

My track record is not the greatest for giving advice like this, but the reality is that, unless you or a loved one is in eminent danger, don't take it upon yourself to try and beat the guy to a pulp... even if he is in your house taking your property, if you attack him he might just turn around and shoot you. Your property isn't worth the potential consequences.

But like Zeon pointed out, every person and every situation is different. I'm probably far less likely to be mugged or assaulted than say... someone like my wife. I'm 6'4" and about 230 lbs, while my wife is 5'1" and maybe 105 lbs. My wife carries a stun gun (and she's pretty quick on the draw), whereas I don't feel like I need something like that.

I think the best thing you could do during a crisis situation of any sort is to try and make rational decisions.

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2007-07-18 07:18pm

...The physics of that one are making me question that, particularly over a stolen pencil.

He was not in his right mind. He's repeatedly made threats to kill me and was later arrested and expelled for carrying narcotics. All he had to do was pop a few pills and he would be ready to beat me to death with a book. I would be somewhat afraid of a person who is willing to stab me to keep a pencil.

The black and white fallacy inherent above is making me suspicious, especially coupled with the quote above. One's training matters more than one's physique, unless one's physique is grossly different than one in reasonable shape.

How is it a fallacy? Someone who is not in particularly good shape will have far more trouble than someone in good shape who is trained to fight. I know a lot of people who look like they belong in grade school because they don't eat right or exercise and thus end up looking tiny. All it takes is a bad diet and lack of regular exercise to ruin your health.

A lot of people work too hard to just let someone take what they earn from them. What about someone who doesn't have much money? What if he cashes his paycheck and is promptly robbed at the ATM? Some people have to fight because they can't simply bounce back. To some people, $200 is a lot, and is worth fighting over.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2007-07-18 07:24pm

chitoryu12 wrote:A lot of people work too hard to just let someone take what they earn from them. What about someone who doesn't have much money? What if he cashes his paycheck and is promptly robbed at the ATM? Some people have to fight because they can't simply bounce back. To some people, $200 is a lot, and is worth fighting over.

In that case, try using your brain instead of your body. Instead of cashing checks, get direct deposit. Do your banking in the daytime. I really think this is something that could be solved by making smarter decisions.

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2007-07-18 07:45pm

Superman wrote:
chitoryu12 wrote:A lot of people work too hard to just let someone take what they earn from them. What about someone who doesn't have much money? What if he cashes his paycheck and is promptly robbed at the ATM? Some people have to fight because they can't simply bounce back. To some people, $200 is a lot, and is worth fighting over.
In that case, try using your brain instead of your body. Instead of cashing checks, get direct deposit. Do your banking in the daytime. I really think this is something that could be solved by making smarter decisions.

And banking in the daytime is completely safe? People have been robbed in broad daylight before and they will for some time. The fact that they got themselves into a robbery does not excuse the fact that something valuble is stolen. Are you trying to say a stupid decision means you deserve to be robbed, or something?

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2007-07-18 08:44pm

chitoryu12 wrote:He was not in his right mind. He's repeatedly made threats to kill me and was later arrested and expelled for carrying narcotics. All he had to do was pop a few pills and he would be ready to beat me to death with a book. I would be somewhat afraid of a person who is willing to stab me to keep a pencil.

That's all very interesting, but my point of contention was the part where you stated (relevant part bolded):

chitoryu12 wrote:Just last year I was trying to get back a stolen pencil and the thief attempted to stab me with it. He ended up with both hands in vice grips and an elbow jamming into his throat.

rhoenix wrote:The black and white fallacy inherent above is making me suspicious, especially coupled with the quote above. One's training matters more than one's physique, unless one's physique is grossly different than one in reasonable shape.

How is it a fallacy? Someone who is not in particularly good shape will have far more trouble than someone in good shape who is trained to fight. I know a lot of people who look like they belong in grade school because they don't eat right or exercise and thus end up looking tiny. All it takes is a bad diet and lack of regular exercise to ruin your health.[/quote]

I can see that you don't have very much experience with fighting, as fighting isn't just about punching and kicking. I'm not going to call myself an expert on hand to hand combat by any means, but just because someone's out of shape doesn't mean they can't suddenly throw you into a joint lock.

chitoryu12 wrote:A lot of people work too hard to just let someone take what they earn from them. What about someone who doesn't have much money? What if he cashes his paycheck and is promptly robbed at the ATM? Some people have to fight because they can't simply bounce back. To some people, $200 is a lot, and is worth fighting over.

Most of the time, someone desperate enough to rob another human being at an ATM, most of which have cameras everywhere, will not care about a small bit of resistance, and will likely be using a weapon.

Ergo, don't put yourself in a dangerous situation unless you absolutely must - as Superman suggested, get direct deposit. Drive to a less drama-prone branch of your bank if you need to make a night deposit, or just make your deposits within the bank during business hours. Half the point of knowing how to fight is to make sure you don't get into situations where you might have to.

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2007-07-18 08:45pm

Apologies, didn't preview the last necessary time, and messed up the quote tags. Corrections below:

chitoryu12 wrote:
rhoenix wrote:The black and white fallacy inherent above is making me suspicious, especially coupled with the quote above. One's training matters more than one's physique, unless one's physique is grossly different than one in reasonable shape.
How is it a fallacy? Someone who is not in particularly good shape will have far more trouble than someone in good shape who is trained to fight. I know a lot of people who look like they belong in grade school because they don't eat right or exercise and thus end up looking tiny. All it takes is a bad diet and lack of regular exercise to ruin your health.

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2007-07-18 09:07pm

I can see that you don't have very much experience with fighting, as fighting isn't just about punching and kicking. I'm not going to call myself an expert on hand to hand combat by any means, but just because someone's out of shape doesn't mean they can't suddenly throw you into a joint lock.

I agree, but someone who's out of shape will have more difficulty putting you into a lock and getting out of one compared to someone physically fit, though I will freely admit that a larger person, whether or not he or she is out of shape or simply muscular, will be a better fighter than someone who's poor lifestyle gives them little muscle mass.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2007-07-18 09:19pm

Self-defence issues is something on which my viewpoints have changed a fair bit as I've grown older. These days I tend to favour the minimum risk philosophy, I'm not risking my ass to save some stranger's life unless I know I have a pretty good chance of success, otherwise I'm going to get the hell out of Dodge and call the cops in so they can handle it. Someone's robbing a Kwik-e-mart while I'm waiting in line? Unless someone's life is in danger and I can blindside the badguy and take him out, I'm going to quietly work my way to the door and practice my Nike-fu.

If I'm the one getting mugged then I'm making a run for it if I can, I know I have a very good sprint and decent fitness so not many people are going to catch me. If I can't make a run for it and I judge my life to be in danger, then there's going to be lots of violence of action. Act quickly, get inside the bad guy(s)'s reaction/decision loop, and don't bother dicking around. Dish out the damage as fast as I can until either I'm dead or none of them are left standing.

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2007-07-18 09:19pm

chitoryu12 wrote:I agree, but someone who's out of shape will have more difficulty putting you into a lock and getting out of one compared to someone physically fit...

It won't matter very much, as it's more about physics and range of motion with locks and throws than it is about strength. In fact, strength can actually become a liability in those cases.

chitoryu12 wrote:...though I will freely admit that a larger person, whether or not he or she is out of shape or simply muscular, will be a better fighter than someone who's poor lifestyle gives them little muscle mass.

Disagreed again. A smaller person will actually have an easier time locking, hitting, and avoiding a larger person, partially because of simple economy of motion based on size, and mostly because they've a smaller center of gravity.

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2007-07-18 09:23pm

Wait, wasn't this thread dedicated to the logic in fighting back against a robber? Shouldn't we stick this arguement somewhere else?

Stuart · Post by **Stuart** » 2007-07-18 10:02pm

rhoenix wrote:
chitoryu12 wrote:...though I will freely admit that a larger person, whether or not he or she is out of shape or simply muscular, will be a better fighter than someone who's poor lifestyle gives them little muscle mass.
Disagreed again. A smaller person will actually have an easier time locking, hitting, and avoiding a larger person, partially because of simple economy of motion based on size, and mostly because they've a smaller center of gravity.

I agree with rhoenix. A larger person is much easier to hit with a first shot. After a .45 hydroshock in the chest, it doesn't matter how big he is.

However

Should never come to that. Experience round here from casual conversations is that the goblins are looking for easy scores. If there is any chance one potential victim is armed, they'll pass and wait for one who isn't.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2007-07-18 10:37pm

chitoryu12 wrote:And banking in the daytime is completely safe? People have been robbed in broad daylight before and they will for some time. The fact that they got themselves into a robbery does not excuse the fact that something valuble is stolen. Are you trying to say a stupid decision means you deserve to be robbed, or something?

Oh, please... Yeah, it's always like war zone when going to the bank. People literally have to fight their way through the crowds of goons waiting to steal from you.

Eulogy · Post by **Eulogy** » 2007-07-18 10:55pm

I wonder if anyone has given this site a gander?

The information seems accurate at least...

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2007-07-18 11:17pm

Superman wrote:
chitoryu12 wrote:And banking in the daytime is completely safe? People have been robbed in broad daylight before and they will for some time. The fact that they got themselves into a robbery does not excuse the fact that something valuble is stolen. Are you trying to say a stupid decision means you deserve to be robbed, or something?
Oh, please... Yeah, it's always like war zone when going to the bank. People literally have to fight their way through the crowds of goons waiting to steal from you.

I didn't say that. You said that people would not get robbed at the ATM if they were smart. The situations can avoided, but you seemed to imply that with so many safer options only an idiot would get in that situation. What about the aformentioned crooks who care little for their own safety or being caught and will attack someone in broad daylight in front of cameras? That's one obvious issue with daylight use.