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Lord Revan wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Mange wrote: What's wrong with the theory that the Falcon traveled to Bespin just below c thus giving Luke a couple of months on Dagobah?

Wait a second. C is Lightspeed correct? Do Star Wars engines gradually speed up to the point where you are traveling 1 mph under the speed of light and you just hit the pedal and poof you go to light speed?

well as far as I known nothing in Star Wars has removed the Lightspeed barrier, IIRC Hyperdrive bypasses it rather then breaking thru it. So hyperdrive is a bit more complex then just hitting the pedal at just below Lightspeed

I should have worded that better.
The difference between the max speed that the MF can go using just it's regular engines and how fast it can go once it engages it's hyperdrive and travels at C is enormous. So you couldn't just travel "to Bespin at just below c" as was stated? The MF's regular engines aren't capable of going 299 792 457 m/s are they?

havokeff wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:

havokeff wrote: Wait a second. C is Lightspeed correct? Do Star Wars engines gradually speed up to the point where you are traveling 1 mph under the speed of light and you just hit the pedal and poof you go to light speed?

well as far as I known nothing in Star Wars has removed the Lightspeed barrier, IIRC Hyperdrive bypasses it rather then breaking thru it. So hyperdrive is a bit more complex then just hitting the pedal at just below Lightspeed

I should have worded that better.
The difference between the max speed that the MF can go using just it's regular engines and how fast it can go once it engages it's hyperdrive and travels at C is enormous. So you couldn't just travel "to Bespin at just below c" as was stated? The MF's regular engines aren't capable of going 299 792 457 m/s are they?

Ooooh dear.... "lightspeed" as used in the film certainly does not mean the speed of light. When a SW ship is moving at "lightspeed" it is actually moving at the equivalent of up to several million times the speed of light.

Dark Flame wrote:Or that they would recognize the Falcon or even care if they did recognize the Falcon.

There are millions of tramp freighters plying the stars, and the YT-1300 is an old but still common model. I'm sure Han put a lot of effort into making the Falcon not stand out, too.

ANH establishes that the Empire can recognise the Falcon though, when Tarkin receives a report stating that the MF was the same freighter that blasted its way out of Tatooine(which leads them to setting the trap in the first place presumably)

havokeff wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:

havokeff wrote:Wait a second. C is Lightspeed correct? Do Star Wars engines gradually speed up to the point where you are traveling 1 mph under the speed of light and you just hit the pedal and poof you go to light speed?

well as far as I known nothing in Star Wars has removed the Lightspeed barrier, IIRC Hyperdrive bypasses it rather then breaking thru it. So hyperdrive is a bit more complex then just hitting the pedal at just below Lightspeed

I should have worded that better.
The difference between the max speed that the MF can go using just it's regular engines and how fast it can go once it engages it's hyperdrive and travels at C is enormous. So you couldn't just travel "to Bespin at just below c" as was stated? The MF's regular engines aren't capable of going 299 792 457 m/s are they?

The phrase "lightspeed" in the general context used in Star Wars refers to hyperspace travel, as the only way to reach lightspeed (and beyond) is to use hyperspace.

Going just under lightspeed would require that the Falcon started less than a light year away from Bespin, and that's the issue some have with the idea.

As for your idea of going just below c and then accelerating a little more: no, that's impossible because of Relativity. Essentially (among other effects), as a starship approaches c, time and mass dilation kick in, requiring more and more energy to accelerate further as it gains mass. Reaching exactly c would require the ship to attain an infinite amount of mass.

You don't have to get to 99% of c before you start hitting time dilation, though.

But the time dilation actually helps the theory. If Bespin and Hoth are, say, two stars in a distant binary, it could take the MF a couple months at near-c, while Han, Leia, and Chewie all experience it in a good deal less time due to dilation.

Turin wrote:You don't have to get to 99% of c before you start hitting time dilation, though.

That's why I said "approaches."

But the time dilation actually helps the theory. If Bespin and Hoth are, say, two stars in a distant binary, it could take the MF a couple months at near-c, while Han, Leia, and Chewie all experience it in a good deal less time due to dilation.

They were in the Anoat system when the Star Destroyer dumped them, so it'd have to be Anoat and Bespin that are close together.

Hoth could be close, but the Imperial fleet may have spread out to other star systems after they presumed the Falcon had entered hyperspace. (On the other hand, that's a lot of garbage to dump just between a couple of hyperjumps if they "always dump their garbage" first. Or they didn't dump their garbage for the shorter jumps.)

Mad wrote:They were in the Anoat system when the Star Destroyer dumped them, so it'd have to be Anoat and Bespin that are close together.

Oh, right. I'd forgotten. It doesn't really matter, obviously, because it's the same problem and potentially the same solution.

(On the other hand, that's a lot of garbage to dump just between a couple of hyperjumps if they "always dump their garbage" first. Or they didn't dump their garbage for the shorter jumps.)

Would it be possible that (part of) the fleet assembled at a rendez-vous point at Anoat and jumped back to their home base from there? It'd explain the trash dump and the collection of ISD's away from Hoth, at the very least.

One other thing to think about, Lando himself says that his operation is small enough not to be noticed. This implies that it is only a minor place at best. they aren't part of the Mining Guild or anyother major organization. it seems that only Has a notation in the navigation charts because Han put it there.

Lando lives here.

Lando himself says that his operation is small enough not to be noticed.

Small enough to fly under the radar of the Empire, but even then their could (and would) be significant traffic. Gas shipments, citizens travelling to/from the city, Lando's business contacts and so on.

It only takes one less-than-scrupulous pilot to spot the Rebels' activity and sell them out.

Bounty wrote:

Lando himself says that his operation is small enough not to be noticed.

Small enough to fly under the radar of the Empire, but even then their could (and would) be significant traffic. Gas shipments, citizens travelling to/from the city, Lando's business contacts and so on.

It only takes one less-than-scrupulous pilot to spot the Rebels' activity and sell them out.

Perhaps the Rebels are using the massive asteroid field to sheild them from such traffic. But it did have a bad side effect.

"with all the meteor activity in this system it will be difficulct to detect incomming ships."

Perhaps the Rebels are using the massive asteroid field to sheild them from such traffic.

But why build a base on such an inhospitable world when it's sitting right next door to an inhabited system? Did Hoth have anything else going for it, apart from being remote and barren?

"with all the meteor activity in this system it will be difficulct to detect incomming ships."

I'm still wondering hos the hell that's supposed to work. Have they never heard of satellites? Just drop a few on the edge of the system and the asteroids won't matter.

Bounty wrote:

Perhaps the Rebels are using the massive asteroid field to sheild them from such traffic.

But why build a base on such an inhospitable world when it's sitting right next door to an inhabited system? Did Hoth have anything else going for it, apart from being remote and barren?

"with all the meteor activity in this system it will be difficulct to detect incomming ships."

I'm still wondering hos the hell that's supposed to work. Have they never heard of satellites? Just drop a few on the edge of the system and the asteroids won't matter.

You will note that that they werw also just getting set in. and yes they picked Hoth because it was a nothing of a place that NO ONE would ever visit because it was a nothing of a place. Why not pick a place that no one cares about and no one lives on? Of they did build the base on Bespin you'd have the problem now of hiding from cloud City. Hoth as a secrey base was a perfect location.

The Rebels appeared to have set up a small network of detectors. passive, in the system. It does appear however that that asteroid belt is far ro volitile to safely deploy satilites there.

Why not pick a place that no one cares about and no one lives on?[...]Hoth as a secrey base was a perfect location.

I agree. That's why I don't understand people insisting it was close to Bespin.

It does appear however that that asteroid belt is far ro volitile to safely deploy satilites there.

Who said anything about deploying them inside the belt? Space is big, you know. Putting a few in the orbit of the outer-most planet should suffice, no?

Who said anything about deploying them inside the belt? Space is big, you know. Putting a few in the orbit of the outer-most planet should suffice, no?

Well, it certainly isn't far-fetched that a satellite could be done up to resemble a chunk of rock, but would they effectively block out any readings to identify the components? The asteroid belt would likely do something to prevent easy scanning of a suspicious rock that reveals that it's a disguised sensor, seeing as how it makes it harder to detect a ship, let alone one small satellite.

Bounty wrote:Who said anything about deploying them inside the belt? Space is big, you know. Putting a few in the orbit of the outer-most planet should suffice, no?

It could be pretty tricky to setup sensors that have enough power to send transmissions that can reach Echo Base through the asteroid field activity and yet still be low-power enough that it doesn't raise the eyebrows of anybody that enters the system.

Mad wrote:

Bounty wrote:Who said anything about deploying them inside the belt? Space is big, you know. Putting a few in the orbit of the outer-most planet should suffice, no?

It could be pretty tricky to setup sensors that have enough power to send transmissions that can reach Echo Base through the asteroid field activity and yet still be low-power enough that it doesn't raise the eyebrows of anybody that enters the system.

Indeed. Even if they used a relay system they'd have to have some sats inside the belt to act as nodes for the signals, in order to keep them low power as possible.

Also we have no idea what the rebels might have had in mind for an early warning system, perhaps HK probe droids etc. Whatever they might have had planned, it would have to have been minimal at best. The point is they had just gotten Echo base online at the start of the movie and before they could really get settled in they were found by the Imperial Probe Droid.

Steel wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:well as far as I known nothing in Star Wars has removed the Lightspeed barrier, IIRC Hyperdrive bypasses it rather then breaking thru it. So hyperdrive is a bit more complex then just hitting the pedal at just below Lightspeed

I should have worded that better.
The difference between the max speed that the MF can go using just it's regular engines and how fast it can go once it engages it's hyperdrive and travels at C is enormous. So you couldn't just travel "to Bespin at just below c" as was stated? The MF's regular engines aren't capable of going 299 792 457 m/s are they?

Ooooh dear.... "lightspeed" as used in the film certainly does not mean the speed of light. When a SW ship is moving at "lightspeed" it is actually moving at the equivalent of up to several million times the speed of light.

Ok. I KNOW that. Mange said the just "just below c" thing. I was just double checking about the power and speed output of the sub light engines. Just making sure. That is all.

havokeff wrote:I should have worded that better.
The difference between the max speed that the MF can go using just it's regular engines and how fast it can go once it engages it's hyperdrive and travels at C is enormous. So you couldn't just travel "to Bespin at just below c" as was stated? The MF's regular engines aren't capable of going 299 792 457 m/s are they?

They might be, depending on how long they can accelerate before running out of fuel. Remember that space travel is not like driving a car; rockets don't have that same kind of maximum speed.


Also, I agree with Bounty on the "sublight to Bespin" theory. It would be very strange if Bespin was only a few light-months from Hoth, since that would put the two systems well within each other's Oort clouds. Not impossible, but a strange situation nonetheless.

Bounty wrote: Would it be possible that (part of) the fleet assembled at a rendez-vous point at Anoat and jumped back to their home base from there? It'd explain the trash dump and the collection of ISD's away from Hoth, at the very least.

There exists a possible rationalisation using the TESB novelisation and BFC. The novelisation has the added words if the Imperials follow standard procedure "this time", suggesting a hyperspace jump made without dumping the trash.

Similarly, BFC tells us how NR intelligence would search for a ship that escaped into hyperspace. Ships would jump into hyperspace out to a certain distance along the ship last known vector and then scan surrounding space.

Thus, what this suggest is that Captain Needa followed a search protocol, jumping along the suspected escape vector without dumping the trash. He then scanned the area and hypered out, returning to Vader to report his failure.
The MF then limped to Bespin on mostly sublight, using intermediate backup hyperdrive jump. That's the chronology line.

Mad has another complementary theory, in which he links the X-wing novels. The run-up to hyperspace consists of two phases, with the first being sublight acceleration.(it seems that Stackpole uses Saxton observations here). Max suggested that the first phase actually goes pass lightspeed and this phase is actually the backup hyperdrive.

Mad wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:well as far as I known nothing in Star Wars has removed the Lightspeed barrier, IIRC Hyperdrive bypasses it rather then breaking thru it. So hyperdrive is a bit more complex then just hitting the pedal at just below Lightspeed

I should have worded that better.
The difference between the max speed that the MF can go using just it's regular engines and how fast it can go once it engages it's hyperdrive and travels at C is enormous. So you couldn't just travel "to Bespin at just below c" as was stated? The MF's regular engines aren't capable of going 299 792 457 m/s are they?

The phrase "lightspeed" in the general context used in Star Wars refers to hyperspace travel, as the only way to reach lightspeed (and beyond) is to use hyperspace.

Going just under lightspeed would require that the Falcon started less than a light year away from Bespin, and that's the issue some have with the idea.

As for your idea of going just below c and then accelerating a little more: no, that's impossible because of Relativity. Essentially (among other effects), as a starship approaches c, time and mass dilation kick in, requiring more and more energy to accelerate further as it gains mass. Reaching exactly c would require the ship to attain an infinite amount of mass.

I know the West End Star Wars game rarely got anything right but in this instance they did have a pretty decent solution.

Basically everything the Falcon has a one-shot backup hyperdrive that is much slower than the normal one. It exists just for this reason. It also explains how Fett and Vader were able to easily get to Bespin ahead of the Flacon to set the trap.

Dooey Jo wrote:

havokeff wrote:I should have worded that better.
The difference between the max speed that the MF can go using just it's regular engines and how fast it can go once it engages it's hyperdrive and travels at C is enormous. So you couldn't just travel "to Bespin at just below c" as was stated? The MF's regular engines aren't capable of going 299 792 457 m/s are they?

They might be, depending on how long they can accelerate before running out of fuel. Remember that space travel is not like driving a car; rockets don't have that same kind of maximum speed.


Also, I agree with Bounty on the "sublight to Bespin" theory. It would be very strange if Bespin was only a few light-months from Hoth, since that would put the two systems well within each other's Oort clouds. Not impossible, but a strange situation nonetheless.

It would be strange if it were a permanent arrangement, but near-passes of solar systems do occur. Approximately 1.4 million years from now, Gliese 710 will pass about 1 light-year from Earth, on the fringes of the Oort cloud.

PainRack wrote: Mad has another complementary theory, in which he links the X-wing novels. The run-up to hyperspace consists of two phases, with the first being sublight acceleration.(it seems that Stackpole uses Saxton observations here). Max suggested that the first phase actually goes pass lightspeed and this phase is actually the backup hyperdrive.

Is there any good reason we should not assume "sub-light" engines only means way slower than hyperdrive and not actually slower than light. After all "lightspeed" means hyperdrive in the Star Wars lexicon so its not really any stretch to say "sub-light" only means sub-hyperdrive. All SW ships could have something analogous to warp drive as part of their main sub-light engines. While this would still be pittifully slow compared to hyperdrive it allows for a several hundered lightyear range between the systems in question. It also has a root in canon observation, that being "starlines" (real space FTL acceleration) preceding the jump to "lightspeed".

Who says system cant be light-weeks/months apart? Our own galaxy has solar system that are mear light days apart.

Who says bespin or hoth systems even have oort clouds. While scientists beleive that most systems SHOULD have clouds, they also beleive that older systems would have expended their clouds.

Also, I agree with Bounty on the "sublight to Bespin" theory. It would be very strange if Bespin was only a few light-months from Hoth, since that would put the two systems well within each other's Oort clouds. Not impossible, but a strange situation nonetheless.

The nearest scientists can determine, the outer edge of the oort cloud isabout 10 to the fifth power AU out. thats 1 million au, or 1 million times nine light minutes. My math is a bit fuzzy, but isnt that more than 2 lightyears.

So if both our system and proxima centauri (4.2 lightyears away) have comparable clouds, they overlap, or at least come very close to touching. Doesnt seem that strange to me.

The way i see it, if the systems are close enough to travel between at sublight speeds, they probably share one cloud.

The Empire Strikes Back wrote: LEIA: What did you have in mind for your next move?

HAN: Well, if they follow standard Imperial procedure, they'll dump
their garbage before they go to light-speed, then we just float away.

LEIA: With the rest of the garbage. Then what?

HAN: Then we've got to find a safe port somewhere around here. Got any
ideas?

LEIA: No. Where are we?

HAN: The Anoat system.

LEIA: Anoat system. There's not much there.

HAN: No. Well, wait. This is interesting. Lando.

He points to a computer mapscreen on the control panel.
Leia slips out of her chair and moves next to the handsome
pilot. Small light points representing several systems flash
by on the computer screen.

LEIA: Lando system?

HAN: Lando's not a system, he's a man. Lando Calrissian. He's a card
player, gambler, scoundrel. You'd like him.

LEIA: Thanks.

HAN: Bespin. It's pretty far, but I think we can make it.

LEIA: (reading from the computer) A mining colony?

HAN: Yeah, a Tibanna gas mine. Lando conned somebody out of it. We go
back a long way, Lando and me.

We do not know how long they were attached to the Star Destroyer or how long the chase actually took. We do know that by the time they left the side of the Avenger that they were no longer in the Hoth System but were in the Anoat system. Here Han says that its pretty far indicating that it will take a while to get there. It is highly possible that the ship did have a back up Hyperdrive that can only go so far and because its minimal in nature takes a while to get anywhere with it hence why its not much good for distances very long.

Perhaps the Star Wars equivalent of a balloon spare. It gets you going but not very well and will die fairly quickly.