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Straha wrote:
And an At-At is? But wait, someone said before that it WAS supposed to be an APC... funny.

It carries 40 troops. It's capable of long range artillery fire (17.28km). It can shoot down speeders with ease. If were to peg it as anything, it'd be an infantry fighting vehicle. What part of it is badly designed, exactly?

Straha wrote:Fair Enough, but still it's screwed if you attack from the side.

No, it's not. Demonstrate where an attack from the side was successful.

So, At-Sts are supposed to stop air attacks? Look At-Sts are well designed, they have a purpose they do it. Their purpose is NOT to knock out fighters. Your suposed to use Ties for that, and where were the Ties at Hoth?

Where were the X-Wings at Hoth? Probably answer: they couldn't operate with the shield up. We have official evidence of XG-1 StarWing Assault Gunboats supporting AT-AT attacks (the original X-Wing), as well as TIE Fighters.

Besides the grammar that could of come out of an Infant I'll try to answer that. The At-At's main body was undamaged, the head was not, the legs were. and it was the head that WAS hit. Secondly if the damn thing is shielded why was it possible to attach something to it?

Maybe because it's only a ray shield? Regardless, that attachment was made directly under the walker. Hardly a vunlerable spot, unless you want to propose how youre going to hit it.

Straha wrote:
HELLO STUPID!!!! ENDOR'S MOON IS A FOREST!!!!! YOU CAN'T MOVE A WALKER THROUGH A WOODED FOREST, OR ELSE IT WILL FALL OVER!
Look, they SHOULD have normal repulsor apcs, or better yet what they used in the Movie, Biker Craft. Your not going to have a huge army down there, cause why would you? there are a bunch of Ewoks down there, that's it. When the battle actually takes place then it gets icky, but even then an AT-AT couldn't help, that's why they used AT-STs which are designed to do things like that.

Now you're being an idiot. The AT-AT transports 40 men, standard. They deploy via cables. What does the size of the AT-AT have to do with this?!

Straha wrote:So you point to two losses? The battle should of been a push over! Two losses of what should be able to destroy an army, no matter how infintasmel to the empire as a whole, is not acceptable!

What the fuck are you talking about? Who said an AT-AT should be able to destroy an entire army? Two losses not acceptable, BOTH to unconventional methods?! You're a dumbass.

When have the Rebels ever used effective artillery? Hoth they used outdated junk, Endor they could have used mortors, but didn't. And never in all of my recolection have they used Artillery... So why should they worry about heavy artillery when lighter artillery would do?

What the fuck is your point?

The plan was good, it wasn't great. It did its job, and killed a bunch of over powered, crappily armed Rebels... good job. Secondly they KNEW the walkers could do that, It's in the biographies, and some novels that a CADET identified the problem, and Veers was notified. What happened to the Cadet? He got demoted to a stormie, and then they lost walkers to this. NExt time, think and check Cannon before you speak.

What the fuck? Firslty it's spelt canon, and secondly, your claim of 'biographies' and 'novels' is bullfuck. Post a source or STFU. You're just flinging bullshit and hoping you don't get called on it unless you post a source pretty fucking soon.

Darth Wong wrote:It's a special-application walker. For outright combat, they use the AT-SE, which is much lower to the ground and more sure-footed. In terms of profile, it's much more like a tank than the tall walker-types.

AT-SE!? That's a new one to me, and not in SWTC's listing of walkers. Perhaps you mean AT-TE, the Republic walkers in ATOC.

Sea Skimmer wrote:
AT-SE!? That's a new one to me, and not in SWTC's listing of walkers. Perhaps you mean AT-TE, the Republic walkers in ATOC.

MMMMMM Imperial AT-TE and LAATs .....

Vympel wrote:

Straha wrote:
And an At-At is? But wait, someone said before that it WAS supposed to be an APC... funny.

It carries 40 troops. It's capable of long range artillery fire (17.28km). It can shoot down speeders with ease. If were to peg it as anything, it'd be an infantry fighting vehicle. What part of it is badly designed, exactly?

Alright, firstly your mis-interperating my quote there. It was in response to "You're a moron. An APC's purpose is not to be an artillery platform." To which I replied that it IS designed to take in an APC's role, it is not supposed to be an artillery platform alone, it IS supposed to operate as an APC, and an Artillery Platform.

Straha wrote:Fair Enough, but still it's screwed if you attack from the side.

No, it's not. Demonstrate where an attack from the side was successful.

I don't have the documentation because I quite frankly don't go over this often enough to do this. But the fact of the matter is that if you were to nudge it with a decent amount of strength over it goes. That's all you need to cripple it.

So, At-Sts are supposed to stop air attacks? Look At-Sts are well designed, they have a purpose they do it. Their purpose is NOT to knock out fighters. Your suposed to use Ties for that, and where were the Ties at Hoth?

Where were the X-Wings at Hoth? Probably answer: they couldn't operate with the shield up. We have official evidence of XG-1 StarWing Assault Gunboats supporting AT-AT attacks (the original X-Wing), as well as TIE Fighters.

The X-Wings weren't in service because of the temperature if I remember correctly. but besides the point, if you can get Snow Speaders working there, and walkers working there you can get Ties working there.

Besides the grammar that could of come out of an Infant I'll try to answer that. The At-At's main body was undamaged, the head was not, the legs were. and it was the head that WAS hit. Secondly if the damn thing is shielded why was it possible to attach something to it?

Maybe because it's only a ray shield? Regardless, that attachment was made directly under the walker. Hardly a vunlerable spot, unless you want to propose how youre going to hit it.

Look, the point was that if their only putting ray shielding on it, why not switch to particle weapons to fight AT-ATs?

Straha wrote:
HELLO STUPID!!!! ENDOR'S MOON IS A FOREST!!!!! YOU CAN'T MOVE A WALKER THROUGH A WOODED FOREST, OR ELSE IT WILL FALL OVER!
Look, they SHOULD have normal repulsor apcs, or better yet what they used in the Movie, Biker Craft. Your not going to have a huge army down there, cause why would you? there are a bunch of Ewoks down there, that's it. When the battle actually takes place then it gets icky, but even then an AT-AT couldn't help, that's why they used AT-STs which are designed to do things like that.

Now you're being an idiot. The AT-AT transports 40 men, standard. They deploy via cables. What does the size of the AT-AT have to do with this?!

How does a walker move through a heavily wooded area? It doesn't matter if they deploy via cables, how do they (the at-at walkers) move?

Straha wrote:So you point to two losses? The battle should of been a push over! Two losses of what should be able to destroy an army, no matter how infintasmel to the empire as a whole, is not acceptable!

What the fuck are you talking about? Who said an AT-AT should be able to destroy an entire army? Two losses not acceptable, BOTH to unconventional methods?! You're a dumbass.
[/quote]
Look, the rebel army is the equivelant to what we fought in afganistan, given it has a little better air support. Now you deploy AT-ATs, and then lose 2 of them, when you should of been able to save them. That is unacceptable, no matter how you cut it.

When have the Rebels ever used effective artillery? Hoth they used outdated junk, Endor they could have used mortors, but didn't. And never in all of my recolection have they used Artillery... So why should they worry about heavy artillery when lighter artillery would do?

What the fuck is your point?

He says "The reason it is so heavily armored is to protect it from heavy artillery" My response "The rebels never use heavy artillery, thus why do they need to spend the money on the extra armor?"

The plan was good, it wasn't great. It did its job, and killed a bunch of over powered, crappily armed Rebels... good job. Secondly they KNEW the walkers could do that, It's in the biographies, and some novels that a CADET identified the problem, and Veers was notified. What happened to the Cadet? He got demoted to a stormie, and then they lost walkers to this. NExt time, think and check Cannon before you speak.

What the fuck? Firslty it's spelt canon, and secondly, your claim of 'biographies' and 'novels' is bullfuck. Post a source or STFU. You're just flinging bullshit and hoping you don't get called on it unless you post a source pretty fucking soon.

Alright First off I believe it was the Star Wars: Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina, read the story on the stormie. Second one was the The Essential Guide to Characters (Star Wars) the old one, not the new one. The new one's link is here http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

My sources, enjoy.

Straha wrote:Look, the point was that if their only putting ray shielding on it, why not switch to particle weapons to fight AT-ATs?

Because AT-AT's carry extremely heavy ultra-strength armour.

He says "The reason it is so heavily armored is to protect it from heavy artillery" My response "The rebels never use heavy artillery, thus why do they need to spend the money on the extra armor?"

Because if they didn't, somebody would do precisely as you suggested above, and use physical impactor weapons to kill them.

PS. Regarding your notion about the TIE's, see my previous post. The whole fucking point of that mission was to knock down the shield generator so they could land their troops. If they could fly in there the whole time anyway, what the fuck was the reason for the mission? Why bother blowing up the shield generator and THEN telling Vader that he could start the landing?

Straha wrote: The X-Wings weren't in service because of the temperature if I remember correctly. but besides the point, if you can get Snow Speaders working there, and walkers working there you can get Ties working there.

The Speeders where designed to work in atmospheres, Walkers where as well, and had "All Terrian" in mind. TIE's clearly did not have atmosphereic operations in mind with there design. Adapting them to the icing conditions in the few hours they had is very likely NOT possibul. It took the Rebels far longer to get the Speeders working.

In anycase, we know Star Wars aircraft cannot pass through theater shields. This has already been stated many times.

Straha wrote:
I don't have the documentation because I quite frankly don't go over this often enough to do this. But the fact of the matter is that if you were to nudge it with a decent amount of strength over it goes. That's all you need to cripple it.

Of course you don't have the documentation, because nothing like that exists. Also, the 'airy fairy' comment that you need to nudge it with a 'decent' amount of strength is bullshit. Can you say 'no math'? Do you have any idea how heavy a walker is?

The X-Wings weren't in service because of the temperature if I remember correctly. but besides the point, if you can get Snow Speaders working there, and walkers working there you can get Ties working there.

I don't think that's true. If the X-Wings weren't in service because of the temperature, then they wouldn't be able to escort the transports, nor would Luke be able to get away at the end of the battle. It was the T-47s that they had trouble adaptng. X-Wings can't fight under a shield. Everytime X-Wings were seen flying, the shield was down.

Look, the point was that if their only putting ray shielding on it, why not switch to particle weapons to fight AT-ATs?

Now you're just inventing excuses. What particle weapons? Did it occur to you that such weapons may also be totally ineffective? Do you have any evidence that they would be able to penetrate the AT-ATs armor? You do know how thick and strong it is, right?

Straha wrote: How does a walker move through a heavily wooded area? It doesn't matter if they deploy via cables, how do they (the at-at walkers) move?

Erm ... by walking? Like we see the AT-AT doing? As Darth Wong asked, do you routinely fall over when you're walking through the forest? No.

Look, the rebel army is the equivelant to what we fought in afganistan, given it has a little better air support. Now you deploy AT-ATs, and then lose 2 of them, when you should of been able to save them. That is unacceptable, no matter how you cut it.

What fucking bullshit. Not only did what you just said have absolutely no cogent point, I put this to you: So when Palestinians blew up the invincible Israeli Merkava tanks by detonating a massive amount of explosives underneath them on a road, then it's an unacceptable loss and Merkava's are poorly designed? What the hell are you smoking?

He says "The reason it is so heavily armored is to protect it from heavy artillery" My response "The rebels never use heavy artillery, thus why do they need to spend the money on the extra armor?

Maybe because you design your vehicles to be the best protected possible? Maybe Israel should strip off all the armor off its Merkavas because the Palestinians don't have good quality anti-tank weapons.

Alright First off I believe it was the Star Wars: Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina, read the story on the stormie. Second one was the The Essential Guide to Characters (Star Wars) the old one, not the new one. The new one's link is here http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

My sources, enjoy.

If you have em, quote them. I'm not going to go out and buy them. Burden of proof is on you remember?

Darth Wong wrote:

Straha wrote:Look, the point was that if their only putting ray shielding on it, why not switch to particle weapons to fight AT-ATs?

Because AT-AT's carry extremely heavy ultra-strength armour.

But if the armor could be destroyed by a Snow Speeder, ergh. I am missing something here, look my point is this, if your using ray shielded walkers, you switch to particle weapons to get around the shielding. That way you have 1 less obsticle to your weapons.

He says "The reason it is so heavily armored is to protect it from heavy artillery" My response "The rebels never use heavy artillery, thus why do they need to spend the money on the extra armor?"

Because if they didn't, somebody would do precisely as you suggested above, and use physical impactor weapons to kill them.

There is nothing stopping them from doing that now though... so why shouldn't they do that again?

PS. Regarding your notion about the TIE's, see my previous post. The whole fucking point of that mission was to knock down the shield generator so they could land their troops. If they could fly in there the whole time anyway, what the fuck was the reason for the mission? Why bother blowing up the shield generator and THEN telling Vader that he could start the landing?

Look, lets be realistic, if they can get a walker down there. They can get a fighter down there, secondly if they have enough moving room for snow Speeders they have enough moving room for ties to be effective. Now my point before was when he said that At-Sts and AT-AAs were to destroy the fighters, which I found stupid and more ignorant then half the comments I will ever make in my most ignorant of moments.

Vympel wrote:
<SNIP>

If you have em, quote them. I'm not going to go out and buy them. Burden of proof is on you remember?

Alright, it's 2:36 here, I need sleep.

I'll simply say this, I'll get quotes tommorow, and I'll get to the rest of your post to. In the mean time, I need sleep.

Straha wrote: But if the armor could be destroyed by a Snow Speeder, ergh. I am missing something here, look my point is this, if your using ray shielded walkers, you switch to particle weapons to get around the shielding. That way you have 1 less obsticle to your weapons.

A single weak spot, and one very hard to hit, the attack profile needed makes you easy pickings for the things guns. Almost every armored military vechical ever built has had some weak spot like that. it doesnt suddenly make the armor useless.

Look, lets be realistic, if they can get a walker down there. They can get a fighter down there, secondly if they have enough moving room for snow Speeders they have enough moving room for ties to be effective. Now my point before was when he said that At-Sts and AT-AAs were to destroy the fighters, which I found stupid and more ignorant then half the comments I will ever make in my most ignorant of moments.

What the fuck is wrong with you? A fighter cannot pass through the shield until it is dropped. A walker can land beyound the sheild, walk through it and blow the generator. Which is exactly what was done.

Why do you insist on putting up this wall of ignorance?

Straha's acting like a dumbass. What's really annoying is that he's not conceding shit.

Straha wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

Straha wrote:Look, the point was that if their only putting ray shielding on it, why not switch to particle weapons to fight AT-ATs?

Because AT-AT's carry extremely heavy ultra-strength armour.

But if the armor could be destroyed by a Snow Speeder, ergh. I am missing something here, look my point is this, if your using ray shielded walkers, you switch to particle weapons to get around the shielding. That way you have 1 less obsticle to your weapons.

Think about this, Straha. They have ray shields to stop blaster weapons, and heavy armour to stop physical impactors. The AT-AT falls down, its ray shield generator fails on impact. The snowspeeder's guns are now able to blast through its armour, which was designed to handle physical impactors (alternatively, they happened to get a lucky hit on a weak spot, as SS says).

He says "The reason it is so heavily armored is to protect it from heavy artillery" My response "The rebels never use heavy artillery, thus why do they need to spend the money on the extra armor?"

Because if they didn't, somebody would do precisely as you suggested above, and use physical impactor weapons to kill them.

There is nothing stopping them from doing that now though... so why shouldn't they do that again?

IT WILL BE INEFFECTIVE BECAUSE OF THE HEAVY ARMOUR WHICH YOU JUST DERIDED AS SPURIOUS AND UNNECESSARY IN THE PARAGRAPH ABOVE. DO YOU HAVE A READING COMPREHENSION PROBLEM?

PS. Regarding your notion about the TIE's, see my previous post. The whole fucking point of that mission was to knock down the shield generator so they could land their troops. If they could fly in there the whole time anyway, what the fuck was the reason for the mission? Why bother blowing up the shield generator and THEN telling Vader that he could start the landing?

Look, lets be realistic, if they can get a walker down there. They can get a fighter down there, secondly if they have enough moving room for snow Speeders they have enough moving room for ties to be effective.

Justify this leap in logic. Note that walkers maintain ground contact while passing through the shield, while fighters don't. If you could rig up a ground-contact vehicle to carry a fighter through the shield on the ground it might work, but they weren't in any mood to fuck around. They could achieve their mission objectives quickly and with acceptable casualties using the method they chose (perhaps 100 men killed in the two downed walkers, as compared to much heavier losses among the Rebels), so there was no reason to fuck around trying to find a way to slip fighters into the shield.

Now my point before was when he said that At-Sts and AT-AAs were to destroy the fighters, which I found stupid and more ignorant then half the comments I will ever make in my most ignorant of moments.

Erm, we SAW them shooting down snowspeeders. Why is it stupid and ignorant to say that they can do so?

My opinion.

The AT-AT is a symbol of well nigh indestructible and inexorably advancing empire forces. Its a more powerful psychological weapon than a legion of stormies.

It would appear to have some kind of ray shielding (some shots were bursting just a few feet off its body in ESB).

The rebel troops running towards it were likely going to make sure that none of the stormies survived the explosion.

The AT-AT is good, it could use improvement, but its still goddamn wonderful.

For the record, according to the Decipher CCG, the AT-AT that blew up was a self-destruct NOT a kill for the Rebels.

Thanks Wilkens.

*puts on sunglasses to dim the glow from Straha's burning argument*

Straha wrote:And an At-At is? But wait, someone said before that it WAS supposed to be an APC... funny.

Fucking dipshit. My point was we don't bother building APCs to be impervious to heavy anti-tank weaponry, so why would the AT-AT be the pinnicle of hardware? Moreoever the exploding AT-AT in ESB was a self-destruct.

Straha wrote:So, At-Sts are supposed to stop air attacks? Look At-Sts are well designed, they have a purpose they do it. Their purpose is NOT to knock out fighters. Your suposed to use Ties for that, and where were the Ties at Hoth?

In the scene we see the AT-ST at Hoth marching forward firing, I would expect it was shooting at snowspeeders coming down on their runs.

Moreover, where did I imply that AT-STs are used for anti-fighter work? The AT-AA Imperial walker is used to apply heavy-anti-fighter cover. Since the X-Wings weren't in the air, they didn't deploy them. But it didn't matter because the AT-ATs were easily able to apply defensive fire.

What about how I mention flanking? That's why they have AT-STs.

Straha wrote:Besides the grammar that could of come out of an Infant I'll try to answer that. The At-At's main body was undamaged, the head was not, the legs were. and it was the head that WAS hit. Secondly if the damn thing is shielded why was it possible to attach something to it?

Fuck you, you stupid little prick.

And the destruction of the AT-AT by the snowspeeder was a self-destruct.

RAY shielding, asshat, so the cable could get through.

Straha wrote:HELLO STUPID!!!! ENDOR'S MOON IS A FOREST!!!!! YOU CAN'T MOVE A WALKER THROUGH A WOODED FOREST, OR ELSE IT WILL FALL OVER!

You are a fucking idiot. Do you think an over-50 foot-tall walker w/
armor dense enough to deflect kiloton-range concentrated energy beams will be tripped by trees? You think every inch of the planet is covered in 100% highly dense folliage?

Straha wrote:Look, they SHOULD have normal repulsor apcs, or better yet what they used in the Movie, Biker Craft.

Repulsor APCs are vulnerable to certain interference fields and are far far more easily gunned down due too smaller size. If you build a really big repulsor APC, it's just going to have to fly as low as the TPM APCs did, but the repulsorlifts are vulnerable AND take energy that could be used for weapons.

Bikes almost certainly don't have the range and aren't efficient for transporting several platoons of soldiers at once, asshat.

Straha wrote:Your not going to have a huge army down there, cause why would you? there are a bunch of Ewoks down there, that's it. When the battle actually takes place then it gets icky, but even then an AT-AT couldn't help, that's why they used AT-STs which are designed to do things like that.

No, it is becuase the AT-ATs and the actual legion were on the other side of the base. Judging by scale of stuff in SW, the size of the power generator, the fact its blast did not affect Solo at the Bunker, the base is probably huge.

You build a base to withstand any attack, not say, "well probably we'll never have an attack so we'll just have a few techs w/ pistols stand by the door."

Straha wrote:When have the Rebels ever used effective artillery? Hoth they used outdated junk, Endor they could have used mortors, but didn't. And never in all of my recolection have they used Artillery... So why should they worry about heavy artillery when lighter artillery would do?

Because the Rebels were not the only threat to the Empire. Rebellous worlds. Hapans. "Fighting yesterday's war" syndrome.

Straha wrote:the plan was good, it wasn't great. It did its job, and killed a bunch of over powered, crappily armed Rebels... good job. Secondly they KNEW the walkers could do that, It's in the biographies, and some novels that a CADET identified the problem, and Veers was notified. What happened to the Cadet? He got demoted to a stormie, and then they lost walkers to this. NExt time, think and check Cannon before you speak.

It's "canon" and that's simply untrue. The quote from the EGTC implies it was perhaps a tracking or targeting issue that made it more vulnerable to fighters. I believe this was fixed. And this whole post right here is red herring and back-tracking because you're a dumbass and got caught.

Fuck you and your sarcastic little smartass insults when you don't know what you're talking about.

Concede now, bitch.

Just to reinforce the evidence for a self-induced explosion on the part of the walker, it says the same thing in the novelization as well.

"The Rebels were about to enter the walker when it suddenly exploded from within, hurtling great jagged chunks of torn metal at them, the impact of the blast flinging the stunned troops back against the snow."

Admittedly, there is no mention of a snowspeeder strafing the walker, the book instead claims there was an infantry charge. This does not necessarily negate the possibility of an internal explosion, however. Especially since the walkers had been shrugging off their fire the entire battle.

ok, something that was pointed out and forgotten

ALL-TERRAIN ASSAULT-TRANSPORT

It transported the troops down and provided cover while they entered the Hoth base.

END OF STORY.

The Prime Necromancer wrote:Just to reinforce the evidence for a self-induced explosion on the part of the walker, it says the same thing in the novelization as well.

"The Rebels were about to enter the walker when it suddenly exploded from within, hurtling great jagged chunks of torn metal at them, the impact of the blast flinging the stunned troops back against the snow."

Admittedly, there is no mention of a snowspeeder strafing the walker, the book instead claims there was an infantry charge. This does not necessarily negate the possibility of an internal explosion, however. Especially since the walkers had been shrugging off their fire the entire battle.

Well there was an infantry charge, the snowspeeders just got there first.

Well there was an infantry charge, the snowspeeders just got there first.

Ah, yes. It's been a while since I've watched ESB.

Alright, Numerous replies have been put up since my last post. I'llget to those soon enough, right now I want to work with what I finished last time, which was the Fact that Veers KNEW that the walkers could be destroyed by fighters.


Firstly the main source (and only really necesarry source for this) is the collecion of Short Stories "Star Wars Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina" with the short story being "When the Desert Wind Turns: The Stormtooper's Tale" By Doug Benson.
What happens in the relevant part of the story is the Recruit (Davin Felth) is sent out on a training mission in an AT-AT, 4 simulated fighters attack him, he crouches the AT-AT and then begins to destroy the fighters when they all but line up to try to bomb him. After this is done Colonel Veers comes out and greets him, and asks him questions on the performance.

"'Thank you, Sergeant.' Said Veers. The colonel drew close to Davin and steered him away from the others. When they were some distance from the instructor and Imperial stormtroopers, the colonel spoke softly. 'Now continue, recruit. What is so special about not allowing the fighters access to the AT-AT under-belly?'
Davin Stiffened <snip he says he lost track of them, and how they could do anything down there, Veers asks him to elaborate>
'Such as . . . trying up the AT-AT legs, sir," Davin Blurted out. 'All they needed was some cable and they could have easily tripped the AT-AT'" (P.260-261)

He spoke directly to VEERS! Veers listened, and could of acted apon what he was told, and tryed to fix the problem, but he didn't did he? The AT-ATs brought down were brought down thanks to this very major defect.


More specific replies coming right now, please be patient.

Vympel wrote:

Straha wrote:
I don't have the documentation because I quite frankly don't go over this often enough to do this. But the fact of the matter is that if you were to nudge it with a decent amount of strength over it goes. That's all you need to cripple it.

Of course you don't have the documentation, because nothing like that exists. Also, the 'airy fairy' comment that you need to nudge it with a 'decent' amount of strength is bullshit. Can you say 'no math'? Do you have any idea how heavy a walker is?

Yes, I do. But that's exactly what brings it down. Lets use an analogy, a cow weighs around 1400 pounds, more or less 5-7 times what an average human weighs. However it is quite easy to "tip" a cow. All you do is walk up to the cow, nudge it from the side, and poof it's on its side. Similar principal with the AT-AT.

The X-Wings weren't in service because of the temperature if I remember correctly. but besides the point, if you can get Snow Speaders working there, and walkers working there you can get Ties working there.

I don't think that's true. If the X-Wings weren't in service because of the temperature, then they wouldn't be able to escort the transports, nor would Luke be able to get away at the end of the battle. It was the T-47s that they had trouble adaptng. X-Wings can't fight under a shield. Everytime X-Wings were seen flying, the shield was down.

Fair enough, my problem with the shield explanation is that if the T-47s were able to work under the shield the X-wings should of worked as well.

Look, the point was that if their only putting ray shielding on it, why not switch to particle weapons to fight AT-ATs?

Now you're just inventing excuses. What particle weapons? Did it occur to you that such weapons may also be totally ineffective? Do you have any evidence that they would be able to penetrate the AT-ATs armor? You do know how thick and strong it is, right?

look, IF you know the thing has ray shielding, and you know that most blasters are going to be innefective against the shield, much less the armor, why should you bother using blaster weapons? It would be a lot more effective to use particle shells(i.e. artillery), or just slugs to work against that armor.

Straha wrote: How does a walker move through a heavily wooded area? It doesn't matter if they deploy via cables, how do they (the at-at walkers) move?

Erm ... by walking? Like we see the AT-AT doing? As Darth Wong asked, do you routinely fall over when you're walking through the forest? No.

No, but then again I am not the same height as trees. Look, unless you just want to knock over all the trees, and face the possibility of causing damage to your walker, your just not going to go through a heavily wooded area. Secondly the terrain of the battle on Endor's moon was hilly. How can one balance a 100ft tall walker over much hilly terrain, where evewn AT-STs were having trouble?

Look, the rebel army is the equivelant to what we fought in afganistan, given it has a little better air support. Now you deploy AT-ATs, and then lose 2 of them, when you should of been able to save them. That is unacceptable, no matter how you cut it.

What fucking bullshit. Not only did what you just said have absolutely no cogent point, I put this to you: So when Palestinians blew up the invincible Israeli Merkava tanks by detonating a massive amount of explosives underneath them on a road, then it's an unacceptable loss and Merkava's are poorly designed? What the hell are you smoking?

No, but it would be if they lost the tank trying to pacify a bunch of palestinian kids, who disabled the tank by jamming the drive train. Because that's basically what happened to the Empire in Hoth.

He says "The reason it is so heavily armored is to protect it from heavy artillery" My response "The rebels never use heavy artillery, thus why do they need to spend the money on the extra armor?

Maybe because you design your vehicles to be the best protected possible? Maybe Israel should strip off all the armor off its Merkavas because the Palestinians don't have good quality anti-tank weapons.

No, but they aren't fighting the Palestinians they're fighting the entire middle east. But my point is this pretty much. You're putting over kill armor on a weapon that should never face kill level enrergy with proper support. The Armor makes it slower, and more likley to fall over if you get any momentum going to either side on it, thus why should you over lay it with armor that it frankly doesn't need? Though I will admit I am probably being a bit to over critical on this point.

Alright First off I believe it was the Star Wars: Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina, read the story on the stormie. Second one was the The Essential Guide to Characters (Star Wars) the old one, not the new one. The new one's link is here http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

My sources, enjoy.

If you have em, quote them. I'm not going to go out and buy them. Burden of proof is on you remember?[/quote]

See previous post.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Straha wrote: The X-Wings weren't in service because of the temperature if I remember correctly. but besides the point, if you can get Snow Speaders working there, and walkers working there you can get Ties working there.

The Speeders where designed to work in atmospheres, Walkers where as well, and had "All Terrian" in mind. TIE's clearly did not have atmosphereic operations in mind with there design. Adapting them to the icing conditions in the few hours they had is very likely NOT possibul. It took the Rebels far longer to get the Speeders working.

In anycase, we know Star Wars aircraft cannot pass through theater shields. This has already been stated many times.

But the ties could have been hovered through, right? Their profile is much smaller then an AT-AT. Secondly in ESB at cloud city they had no problem with atmosphere, and finally as I said before you don't need the Tie zooming into the Theater shield, just going around the same speed and levels as the Speeders were.

Darth Wong wrote:

Straha wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: Because AT-AT's carry extremely heavy ultra-strength armour.

But if the armor could be destroyed by a Snow Speeder, ergh. I am missing something here, look my point is this, if your using ray shielded walkers, you switch to particle weapons to get around the shielding. That way you have 1 less obsticle to your weapons.

Think about this, Straha. They have ray shields to stop blaster weapons, and heavy armour to stop physical impactors. The AT-AT falls down, its ray shield generator fails on impact. The snowspeeder's guns are now able to blast through its armour, which was designed to handle physical impactors (alternatively, they happened to get a lucky hit on a weak spot, as SS says).

Fair enough.

Because if they didn't, somebody would do precisely as you suggested above, and use physical impactor weapons to kill them.

There is nothing stopping them from doing that now though... so why shouldn't they do that again?

IT WILL BE INEFFECTIVE BECAUSE OF THE HEAVY ARMOUR WHICH YOU JUST DERIDED AS SPURIOUS AND UNNECESSARY IN THE PARAGRAPH ABOVE. DO YOU HAVE A READING COMPREHENSION PROBLEM?

But it would be more effective then the Blasters they're using now, right? I still see no reason to not switch from "laser" weapons to projectile weapons, as they would be more effective at whittling away what armor you can, and more likley to damage what ever weak spot they have left open.

PS. Regarding your notion about the TIE's, see my previous post. The whole fucking point of that mission was to knock down the shield generator so they could land their troops. If they could fly in there the whole time anyway, what the fuck was the reason for the mission? Why bother blowing up the shield generator and THEN telling Vader that he could start the landing?

Look, lets be realistic, if they can get a walker down there. They can get a fighter down there, secondly if they have enough moving room for snow Speeders they have enough moving room for ties to be effective.

Justify this leap in logic. Note that walkers maintain ground contact while passing through the shield, while fighters don't. If you could rig up a ground-contact vehicle to carry a fighter through the shield on the ground it might work, but they weren't in any mood to fuck around. They could achieve their mission objectives quickly and with acceptable casualties using the method they chose (perhaps 100 men killed in the two downed walkers, as compared to much heavier losses among the Rebels), so there was no reason to fuck around trying to find a way to slip fighters into the shield.

Who said they needed to Fuck around with anything? The tie is less then 100 feet tall, and could easily be hovered in beneath the AT-ATs. Secondly Why does one need to contain ground contact while going underneath the shield, the shield they probably used there would be along the lines of the one used in the YJK (sorry forgot the book on this one) series and the Imperium was able to get 2 ties underneath the shield, and then the one left was able to maneuver around at the height necesarry for the battle in Hoth.

Now my point before was when he said that At-Sts and AT-AAs were to destroy the fighters, which I found stupid and more ignorant then half the comments I will ever make in my most ignorant of moments.

Erm, we SAW them shooting down snowspeeders. Why is it stupid and ignorant to say that they can do so?

We SAW AT-ATs doing that, we NEVER saw AT-STs doing that. AT-STs are not fast enough, nor powerful enough to do that in the first place. Secondly as was said in a previous post by SeaSkimmer I believe they Use Ties for air cover in most assaults, now if they already have Ties why do tey need to use an inferior machine as an Air Defense weapon?

Wrong.

Theater shields apparently fuck up ion-drive craft.

X-Wings and transports didn't take off except when the shield was already down.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Wrong.

Theater shields apparently fuck up ion-drive craft.

X-Wings and transports didn't take off except when the shield was already down.

Evidence?