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Steve wrote:Of the two, which do you prefer? From a player viewpoint, an aesthetic viewpoint, and a sympathy viewpoint (by which I mean, if it was real, which side would you favor supporting?).

Oh, gosh - my main is a level 67 Tauren and I've had great fun playing her. I like the Tauren, and I've been camping a lot in real life so the teepee thing isn't a problem for me. Admittedly, though, the Alliance cities and settlements seemed a lot more comfortable (although many Horde outposts DO have real beds!) Apparently, no one has flush toilets - you see outhouses in Human areas, I don't know what everyone else does.

That dog-poisoning quest? If you don't like it, don't do it. It's not essential. You don't have to do EVERY quest in the game, and with the BC on the early levels you can have even more quests than before because you can go to the expansion areas.

Aethetics? I hate the elf-ears, the troll tusks. Orcs are fugly. Gnomes are fugly. I guess that leave Dwarves, Tauren, Dranei, and Humans. The humans and dwarves definitely have their dark sides and their evil characters - the Tauren and Dranei seem to be the most wholesome two groups. The Alliance cities and tech are better looking than the Horde, but the divide could be argued to be tribal vs. urban as much as good vs. evil.

But if it was real? Well, I'm human, so I'd be Alliance, of course - although probably darn curious about those other funny-looking sentients. And a little spooked because for the most part Horde are all bigger than humans.

RazorOutlaw wrote:I prefer the Alliance out of sympathy. Yes, the Orcs were manipulated and all that but the Alliance suffered the most because their homelands were trashed twice.

Oh, poor things...

Let's see, the Orc homeland had the Dranei move in uninvited, which was followed by demons that took over the Orcs and fucked them up. Then, not content with shitting on the place, the Bad Guys' did Big Bad Magic that ripped the planet apart and left just a crumbling fragment floating in space, while exiling most of the Orcs on another, alien planet....

Let's see - Outland literally falling apart. Azeroth still intact as a planet, if a bit worse for wear. Outland - demons in every surviving region. Azeroth - some locations actually peaceful enough for level 1 characters to walk around. Hmm... where would you rather live?

Male orcs and humans are bizarrely fugly...yet for some reason, female orcs and undead seem to both have better posture and better-looking models than the males of those races.

And people say that video games aren't made with women in mind...

I play both because both sides have aesthetics that appeal to me. The only time I consider side preference at all is actually when I'm not in the game. Horde players are fucking assholes.

My girlfriend also plays both and she bought the alliance hoodie and the horde t-shirt. If she wears the horde shirt and we're out, nobody bats an eye, maybe someone will give her a thumbs-up, or a store clerk will ask what server we play.

As soon as she goes out with the alliance hoodie on, she starts getting crap for it. Consequently, my opinion of the horde declines a bit every time that happens.

UCBooties wrote:I play both because both sides have aesthetics that appeal to me. The only time I consider side preference at all is actually when I'm not in the game. Horde players are fucking assholes.

Oddly, the bad behavior of Alliance players on The Scryers server is exactly why I don't often play that side - things like raiding first-level areas and such.

Molyneux wrote:So as the game story puts it, the orcs, trolls and Tauren are actually sticking together out of mutual trust and bound by oaths, while the Forsaken are just using the Horde to protect them from the humans?

I might be misremembering my WoW lore, it seems to me like an act of extreme goodwill on the part of the Horde itself. The Horde, if anything, gets points for accepting those which it seems unlikely that others would accept; I honestly couldn't see the Alliance welcoming the Forsaken.

Ever.

As fucked up as the Forsaken's long-term goals are, ain't nobody should take them in, theme-wise. But Blizzard wanted to appease people who wanted to play undead, so they warped the story around to find a way to make it work, same way they later mangled pre-existing theme to allow Blood Elf Paladins. Bleah. As for Horde/Alliance...I favor Alliance for simple aesthetic reasons, and because I dislike playing an intrinsically overpowered faction. Will of the Forsaken can bite me.

There are three kinds of Horde, for the most part. Undead, Blood Elf Paladins, and classes that Undead can't be.

Ford Prefect wrote:

Molyneux wrote:So as the game story puts it, the orcs, trolls and Tauren are actually sticking together out of mutual trust and bound by oaths, while the Forsaken are just using the Horde to protect them from the humans?

I might be misremembering my WoW lore, it seems to me like an act of extreme goodwill on the part of the Horde itself. The Horde, if anything, gets points for accepting those which it seems unlikely that others would accept; I honestly couldn't see the Alliance welcoming the Forsaken.

Ever.

Oh, yeah. It says right in the new-character intro that the orcs want to give others - the Forsaken and Blood Elves - a chance to improve themselves, because the orcs themselves were manipulated so badly.

Molyneux wrote:

UCBooties wrote:I play both because both sides have aesthetics that appeal to me. The only time I consider side preference at all is actually when I'm not in the game. Horde players are fucking assholes.

Oddly, the bad behavior of Alliance players on The Scryers server is exactly why I don't often play that side - things like raiding first-level areas and such.

On Cenarion Circle I mostly play Alliance (in fact, admittedly, all my characters there are Alliance now) and it seems that not a day or few passes by when Hordies aren't raiding Southshore and Astranaar and even Goldshire (though I'm told a number of Horde raids on Goldshire are actually by Alliance players with Horde alts that are pissed off with the idiots who frequent Goldshire) There have also been a couple of high-level Hordie raids on Sentinel Hill and on Auberdine in my experience. I can understand Astranaar and Southshore (and especially Astranaar given that it's smack dab in the way for Horde players on the way to BFD) and even Thelsamar, but Auberdine? Sentinel Hill?

Of course, on the contrary side, I started a Horde player (Orc hunter) on Dragonblight (Slacker has a Horde guild on that server) and my first time through I found a couple high level Alliance players messing around on the road between Razor Hill and Sen'jin Village.

Ford Prefect wrote:

Molyneux wrote:So as the game story puts it, the orcs, trolls and Tauren are actually sticking together out of mutual trust and bound by oaths, while the Forsaken are just using the Horde to protect them from the humans?

I might be misremembering my WoW lore, it seems to me like an act of extreme goodwill on the part of the Horde itself. The Horde, if anything, gets points for accepting those which it seems unlikely that others would accept; I honestly couldn't see the Alliance welcoming the Forsaken.

Ever.

Given that the Undead like to brew poisons and plagues and are using captured living people as raw meat material for their Abominations.... I cant' say I blame them.

And it tells you something that Undead only start Neutral with most of the Horde races save the Belfs (who similarly are only Neutral with Horde races save Undead). I think it somewhat works for the Horde to be a little mistrustful, even if accepting, while the Alliance tends to be more tightly-knit (though I think that it's a bit silly that Draenei start out as Friendly with other Alliance races, since part of the Drae starting quests are proving friendship to the other Alliance races. Maybe have them as very high neutral so that completing all of the quests at Odyseus' Landing leads to Friendly status with the other Alliance races).

Just one question: Isn't the Forsaken ultimate aim to release the plague which would turn everyone, Horde and Alliance into undead?

PainRack wrote:Just one question: Isn't the Forsaken ultimate aim to release the plague which would turn everyone, Horde and Alliance into undead?

it's unknown but it goes back to what I said the Forsaken beleaving that the only to be left alone is the make the rest undead too.


btw I know this is a bit of point but first do you make characters only of your own gender and second do refer to your characters as he/she?

PainRack wrote:Just one question: Isn't the Forsaken ultimate aim to release the plague which would turn everyone, Horde and Alliance into undead?

If that's so...it would be REALLY nice if they gave Forsaken players the option of opposing that plan. Parallel quests or something like that, you know?

Lord Revan wrote:btw I know this is a bit of point but first do you make characters only of your own gender and second do refer to your characters as he/she?

Perhaps that question might be better asked on a split thread...?
And anyhow: an emphatic no to the first question, and a yes to the second. I refer to my characters by whatever gender they possess, and in the third person.

Initially I played only male characters; then for a long time it switched to about 50/50; now I figure I play about 2/3 female, 1/3 male (though largely because a) Mithra are female-only in FFXI, and b) most of the male models in WoW are hideously ugly.)

Molyneux wrote: b) most of the male models in WoW are hideously ugly.)

True. With the exception of Dwarven men. Real men have massive beards, joke about drinking, and dance the Russian kick-step!

As for the Forsaken, I started an Undead warrior to check out Undercity. Whoever designed it should be shot (whoever designed Orgrimmar should be shot twice), and when I found the Abomination factory and the Caged Human Males and Caged Human Females, I decided that there's only one thing I want to do with the Undead; teleport out the prisoners, teleport in a naquadah-enhanced fusion warhead.

BOOOOOOOOOOM.

Guy in Southshore: "Say, what's that funny big light to the north?"

Horde. Blood elves. Leper Gnome sweatshop in the basement of the tailor.

Honestly, why play anything else?

*Edit*

I played both sides at various times, and the ratio of idiots and assholes tends to be about the same. The advantage of Horde side is when you see some guy jumping his night elf every...single...step...you get to kill the night elf.

Of course, blood elves may be just as bad by now about jumping everywhere. So it may even out.

In terms of PvP, Alliance always seemed to cooperate better/try harder on my server, unless you were in a premade.

Steve wrote: As for the Forsaken, I started an Undead warrior to check out Undercity. Whoever designed it should be shot (whoever designed Orgrimmar should be shot twice), and when I found the Abomination factory and the Caged Human Males and Caged Human Females, I decided that there's only one thing I want to do with the Undead; teleport out the prisoners, teleport in a naquadah-enhanced fusion warhead.

BOOOOOOOOOOM.

Guy in Southshore: "Say, what's that funny big light to the north?"

It gets worse. Orgrimmar is supposedly the best of the Horde cities because you can use mounts to get around the distance issue. Thunder Bluff comes in second, because mounts are limited by bridges and other critical access points, but the services are more user friendly relatively. Undercity doesn't allow the use of mounts at ALL. So, you get confusing maps, spaced out services, hard access points and limited routes with no way to have a real shortcut.

PainRack wrote:Undercity doesn't allow the use of mounts at ALL. So, you get confusing maps, spaced out services, hard access points and limited routes with no way to have a real shortcut.

Is that a change? I never had trouble riding everywhere in the Undercity.

They allowed the use of mounts in Undercity a long time ago.

Undercity still smells. My favorite was Thunder Bluff by a country mile, if only it had a zeppelin point...

Jaevric wrote:

PainRack wrote:Undercity doesn't allow the use of mounts at ALL. So, you get confusing maps, spaced out services, hard access points and limited routes with no way to have a real shortcut.

Is that a change? I never had trouble riding everywhere in the Undercity.

I'm talking more about the impossibility of using mounts to actually travel any real distance,due to the numerous bridges, rivers, doorways and other close spaces.

Broomstick wrote:

RazorOutlaw wrote:I prefer the Alliance out of sympathy. Yes, the Orcs were manipulated and all that but the Alliance suffered the most because their homelands were trashed twice.

Oh, poor things...

Let's see, the Orc homeland had the Dranei move in uninvited, which was followed by demons that took over the Orcs and fucked them up. Then, not content with shitting on the place, the Bad Guys' did Big Bad Magic that ripped the planet apart and left just a crumbling fragment floating in space, while exiling most of the Orcs on another, alien planet....

Let's see - Outland literally falling apart. Azeroth still intact as a planet, if a bit worse for wear. Outland - demons in every surviving region. Azeroth - some locations actually peaceful enough for level 1 characters to walk around. Hmm... where would you rather live?

My sympathy mainly lines in the fact that as of Warcraft 2, humans were still pretty much a noble race getting reamed by the Horde. Even more so when as of Warcraft 3 I'd read that the Orcs pushed as far as Lordaeron. I might also point out that the humans had their lands forcibly invaded more than once, and it was shit on by zombies AND demons to boot.

I'm not up to snuff on all of the lore brought in by WoW, and what evil factions the Alliance now holds, but it still bothers me to run around the Plaguelands and realize it used to be populated by something other than slavering beasts.

I'll give you that having your entire planet pulled apart by a member of your own faction is pretty horrible, but a lot of my sympathy lies with what happened in the first three games.

Pounder my first char is a male. With the exception of a Dwarf Rogue I made all my other char have been pretty much female. Female forsaken Locks and Rogues look awesome and IMHO they have some of the funniest emotes. "They're real, they're not mine but they are real"

RazorOutlaw wrote: My sympathy mainly lines in the fact that as of Warcraft 2, humans were still pretty much a noble race getting reamed by the Horde. Even more so when as of Warcraft 3 I'd read that the Orcs pushed as far as Lordaeron. I might also point out that the humans had their lands forcibly invaded more than once, and it was shit on by zombies AND demons to boot.

I'm not up to snuff on all of the lore brought in by WoW, and what evil factions the Alliance now holds, but it still bothers me to run around the Plaguelands and realize it used to be populated by something other than slavering beasts.

I'll give you that having your entire planet pulled apart by a member of your own faction is pretty horrible, but a lot of my sympathy lies with what happened in the first three games.

Well, so far I know, from personal gameplay, that you have the nastiness of the Scarlet Crusade (fanatical Humans esconded away in Lordaeron dedicated to purging the Undead and who have gotten so paranoid and mad that they believe everyone else is tainted and will attack on sight, usually torturing any prisoners they take) though I've read that later on you find out that their leader is a demon in disguise. Another quest outcome seems to indicate at corruption even in the Argent Dawn or its offshoot organization the Brotherhood.

Stormwind has problems with corrupt nobility that has ties with the violent Defias Brotherhood - a gang of thieves and thugs that have driven out farmers from Stormwind's valuable Westfall farm region and who were founded by the leader of the Stonemasons Guild that rebuilt Stormwind after the First War (depending on source, they were either unrightfully cheated of recompensation by the nobility or they were made up of corrupt masons who offered their work for free and then demanded exhorbitant recompense when the work was finished), and which has abandoned Westfall, Redridge, and Darkshire to face the threats to their survival (Defias, Blackrock Orcs, and seperate armies of Undead and Worgen respectively). Of course, it later turns out that both the nobility and the Defias have been manipulated and used to extents by Onyxia, the daughter of Deathwing, who is masquerading as Lady Katrana Prestor, a counselor to Stormwind's court; she even arranged the kidnapping of King Varian Wrynn when he traveled to see Jaina Proudmoore at Theramore so she'd have a child-king to manipulate.

I haven't seen any really bad similar corruption by the Ironforge Dwarves, just them having to deal with Dark Irons. But my most advanced character is only Level 42 (or 43, can't remember ATM), so I can't be certain that there's nothing later on.

As for the Night Elves, their worst problem seems to be Malfurion Stormrage's successor as Archdruid; Fandrel Staghelm is arrogant and hot-tempered, clashing with Tyrande regularly, grew Teldrassil when Malfurion disappeared in the Emerald Dream, is researching a grain with disturbing properties, and I've been told some quests later in the game hint to him being responsible for Malfurion's absence - which I find certainly possible given his attitude.

And then there are the Draenei, who seem pure enough. I've not seen any sign of corruption, at all, from them.

If you ask me the main problems with humans (and to some extent dwarves and gnomes) in addition to corrupted nobility are people like the late Admiral Proudmore who are more or less the cause of the current Horde-Alliance conflict as refuse to admit that the orcs of WC3 and WoW aren't the same orcs who destroyed Azeroth (kingdom not the planet) and Lordaeron in WC1 and WC2

as for Arch-druid Staghelm has pretty much lost it thanks to his sons death.

the Draenei suffer from same problem as the humans of not being able to look at/think off the orcs as anything enemies to be killed and also there's slight but clear intolerance towards the Broken and Lost one subspecies.

that said the Horde ofc has it's problems too

The lore for the roleplaying book series indicates that the rest of the Horde don't trust the Forsaken as far as they can throw an abomination. The Orcs and Taurens both have 'emissaries' to keep an eye on them, and in fact, feed information on questionable Forsaken activity to the Alliance through the Dwarven ambassador to Undercity in return for similar 'headsup'. This isn't to say individual forsaken aren't welcome in the Horde, but the RAS in particular is watched very closely at the highest levels of the Horde government.

A three way split would be cool IMHO. The Forsaken betray the Horde and take the Blood Elves with them. It would certainly shake up the dynamic.