Pakistan losing control of fight against AQ and Taliban

[Darth Wong]

There's also some question of just how "secular" Pakistan's other schools are.

[Ender]

The real problem isn't that the Pakistani government is losing the war of bullets with the Islamists, it's that they're losing the war of ideas, and the US is to blame for a lot of that. America keeps increasing military aid to Musharraf's regime even when he has clearly stated he doesn't need it and wants to build secular schools instead to counter the madrassas that are educating such a large part of the country.

Less than one percent of Pakistani children attend madrassas, according to UN figures.

Which, assuming that less then 1% is 0.1%, would mean we have 60,771 children under the age of 14 being taught radical Islam. Over 60 thousand religious fanatics are nothing to dismiss with eyeroll smilies.

Or did you forget that in the most overpopulated part of the planet even a tiny fraction is a lot of people?

EDIT: Dammit, took to long typing this up

[Sarevok]

There's also some question of just how "secular" Pakistan's other schools are.

The public school system is similar to India. There is also the english medium schools following UK's GCE A/O level system which is highly westernised. In my experience people coming from these kind of schools are usually westernised or at least not fundies.

Regarding Madrashahs not all madrashahs are taliban factories. Those that are can be reformed but the problem with Pakistan lies elsewhere and is much more complex.

[Kanastrous]

My knowledge of Pakistani history is limited...what is Pakistan's reason for existence, apart from being a Muslim nation for Muslims who couldn't stomach living under Hindu-majority rule on the Indian subcontinent?

That certainly appears to have been Jinnah's main interest, in pressing for Pakistan's formation.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

My knowledge of Pakistani history is limited...what is Pakistan's reason for existence, apart from being a Muslim nation for Muslims who couldn't stomach living under Hindu-majority rule on the Indian subcontinent?

That certainly appears to have been Jinnah's main interest, in pressing for Pakistan's formation.

Because the Brits figured that separating the Muslims and the Hindus was a better idea contrary to what Ghandi and the other Indian leaders thought. Naturally, they contested areas here and there and led to some blood flying around over the next few decades cumulating to some nuclear bomb tests.

[Kanastrous]

Well, yeah, but Jinnah manipulated the British into it. Gandhi's periodic withdrawal from negotiations created space for the Muslim political parties to make gains at the expense of Indian territorial integrity.

From the British point of view, it was good old-fashioned play-your-victims-off-against-one-another. From the Pakistani point of view, it seems like a desire to create a nation based upon nothing but religious separatism.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, yeah, but Jinnah manipulated the British into it. Gandhi's periodic withdrawal from negotiations created space for the Muslim political parties to make gains at the expense of Indian territorial integrity.

From the British point of view, it was good old-fashioned play-your-victims-off-against-one-another. From the Pakistani point of view, it seems like a desire to create a nation based upon nothing but religious separatism.

It didn't really help that there were extremists on both sides of the equation.

In some ways, on hindsight, an occasional explicit war is a better idea versus rampant civil war, which India had its fair share later I think.

[Kanastrous]

Because the job, once settled upon, was left incomplete.

If there's going to be a nation on Hindu India's doorstep whose sole reason for existing is to be a place for ex-Indian Muslims, then India should have seen to it that every last Muslim emigrated. And of course every last Hindu on the territory that became Pakistan, should have headed (or, more likely, been herded) across the frontier into India.

Not my idea of an ideal solution (or even a sane one), based upon the Muslim/Hindu/British premise, but accepting the premise seems to lead to that conclusion. Because now the Indians have the worst of both worlds: an intrinsically hostile nuclear-armed Muslim state next door, and a troublemaking Muslim population whose presence brings out the worst behavior in the majority Hindu populace.

Has anyone read Tariq Ali's The Clash of Fundamentalisms?

[Lord of the Abyss]

snip

Could ? Sure. But would they ? Selling them planes and such is probably more profitable to Bush's corporate buddies than sending a bunch of soldiers over to train people would be.

Then what's the whole fucking point with the "War on Terror" if you're not going to properly equip/train your allies whom you want in the conflict? Why does the Bush administration keep on wanking that to death, yet coporate welfare is a higher priority than insuring the stability of an ally in the region?

That makes no bloody sense at all.

It makes perfect sense, because that's the point of the "war on terror"; to serve as an excuse for doing what it's proponents want to do. Not to fight against terrorism; they don't care about terrorism.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Because the job, once settled upon, was left incomplete.

If there's going to be a nation on Hindu India's doorstep whose sole reason for existing is to be a place for ex-Indian Muslims, then India should have seen to it that every last Muslim emigrated. And of course every last Hindu on the territory that became Pakistan, should have headed (or, more likely, been herded) across the frontier into India.

Not my idea of an ideal solution (or even a sane one), based upon the Muslim/Hindu/British premise, but accepting the premise seems to lead to that conclusion. Because now the Indians have the worst of both worlds: an intrinsically hostile nuclear-armed Muslim state next door, and a troublemaking Muslim population whose presence brings out the worst behavior in the majority Hindu populace.

Has anyone read Tariq Ali's The Clash of Fundamentalisms?

Brings out the worst behaviour? Hinduism has its share of fundies and quite frankly, I doubt it is one that led to another all together. Rather, both sides are equally to be blamed for the rampant stupidity, mosques burning, and temple destruction.

[Kanastrous]

Agreed.

All the more reason to thoroughly separate them.

Then they can have fun killing each other at the national, rather than at the neighborhood level.