The Second Coming of Christ

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-11 07:59am

The hate for Fundmentalists is swelling.
On both sides

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2002-08-11 01:23pm

If I wanted to be more open minded I'd watch Pokémon, I mean it's just as possible as the Bible's teachings coming true.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-08-11 01:39pm

I heard a rumor that Christian Fundies were responsible for the anthrax terror a while back. That would be a great way to denounce christianity, however, i have that would blow over if that sweet, sweet evidence was unearthed.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-08-11 01:54pm

Wow. Considering all the deep hatred I've seen on this board from atheists towards Christians, I'm going to take that final sentence with a couple truckloads of salt.

Give one example of anyone on this board saying that all Christians are evil. There's a big difference between criticizing the belief system (Christianity) and the people who follow it (Christians), because every person is different. Of course, fundamentalist Christian mindsets dictate that you judge a person based on his beliefs, but as I said before, atheists are not fundamentalist Christians. Don't project your ignorance and intolerance on to us.

I'm assuming there's an understood "unless they're fundy Christians, in which case they can all *&#! off and die!" at the end, right?

No, fundamentalist Christians can simply fuck off. The tenets of mainstream Christianity (Heaven, Hell, Judgment Day) are frightening and simply absurd, but that doesn't mean that I hate everyone who believes in them.

The whole "tolerance" thing, as Crossover_Maniac has pointed out, doesn't appear to apply to attitudes towards Christianity.

Christians have a lot of balls complaining about atheists not tolerating them. Atheists aren't trying to get "Gods don't exist" put in to the Pledge of Allegiance. Atheists aren't trying to make the government endorse their beliefs. You can proselytize on the street all you want, but the government is not allowed to endorse yours or anyone else's religious beliefs.

Allllll righty. First of all, you do realize that one of Christ's teachings (and Christians follow Christ's teachings, after all) is to "go forth and make disciples of all nations," right? I fully admit that some people are a bit...agressive in their evangelizing. Sometimes they forget Matthew 7:6:

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and
tear you to pieces."

In other words, there's no sense preaching to a bunch of closed-mided atheists because they aren't ready to welcome the Holy Spirit into their hearts. Doesn't mean a good Christian shouldn't try, it just means that their time would be better spent on someone who is more open-minded.

I guess that means I'm "close-minded" because I don't think that Miss Cleo has genuine psychic powers, then, right? Your definition of "open-minded" is akin to simply being gullible and buying whatever moronic claims that come your way.

As for Christ's teachings, they are precisely what's wrong with Christianity. Christ commanded his followers to take a personal matter (religion) and publicize it. Why? Because if you're not a believer, you're going to burn in Hell. This has been the motivation for a litany of Christian atrocities over the years. They tortured Jews to get them to convert, and if they died during the process, who cares? They were going to Hell, anyway. That's what makes Christianity dangerous. Sure, most religions believe that they're the right one, but Christianity and its derivatives are the only ones whose members try to gain governmental endorsement for their beliefs and convert everyone else to their religion.

Furthermore, that passage makes it clear that everyone not open to Christ's message is inferior pondscum. That's the very essence of bigotry. Thank you for making me aware of this quote. It only strengthens my case.

It's a sick, self-serving system, in my opinion. The preachers can't find a meaning for their own lives, so they have to ascribe themselves the task of converting everyone else so that they can save everyone's souls. Completely circular.

Also, you, as a non-believer with no interest in hearing the Word of God could help your cause a lot by not being quite so combative. Instead of launching into an angry diatribe every time a Christian asks if you know Jesus, just shake your head and walk on by, or tell them politely, "I'm sorry, but I have no desire to learn about your beliefs." A combative response is going to set off alarms in the mind of a "fundamentalist" and cause him/her to think, "Boy, that guy really really needs to hear about Jesus!"

Who says that that's not precisely what I do? Do you really think I have the time or inclination to get into arguments when I'm walking down the street? Discussion boards are a different matter. When someone presents the Second Coming as if it's actual fact, I simply tell them that I think it's a fairy tale, and then I outline my reasons. People like you have the Christian knee-jerk reaction that anyone who criticizes their beliefs is automatically being intolerant, no matter how valid those criticisms may be.

If you're getting unwanted attention from someone, just ignore them. Eventually they'll go away. It holds true for the most fundamentalist evangelical Christian out there, too.

You're acting like evangelism only takes place on the personal level. It doesn't. Christian bigots are routinely looking for new ways to get their beliefs endorsed by the government by illegalizing prostitution, gambling, and in the case of Texas, vibrators.

Okayyyyyyy. Now, if that someone's only "crime" is to hold a "fundamentalist" view of Christianity, and that practice in no way, shape or form threatens your individual life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness, then you are out of luck.

Strawman. I never said it was a crime to hold those beliefs. That's part of everyone's freedom of worship. However, Christian fundamentalist beliefs are bigoted nonsense that can lead to enormous evil, and those are the grounds that I attack it on.

The Constitution gives a person the right to be an "annoying" Chrstian. There is no right for you to not be annoyed. There is no right for you to not be offended. There is no right for you to never have to hear about a belief that you do not, nor desire to, hold. Freedom of religion is one of the most precious freedoms we have in the United States of America. The main reason I serve my country and wear the uniform of our Armed Forces is to defend that right. I wear it to equally defend your right to believe or not believe as you see fit.

You're acting like someone can't be stupid, ignorant or simply rude without violating someone else's rights. Christian fundamentalists who preach hate against atheists aren't violating anyone's rights, but they are being exceptionally stupid, ignorant and bigoted with their use of free speech.

Seek to change that and you will have to go through me. And I will defend that right to my last dying breath.

Oh, please. Spare me this "cold, dead hands" bullshit, Mr. Heston.

You want to live in a society where you'll never have to hear about Christianity? Move to Saudi Arabia. Trying to convert anybody to Christianity is punishable by death. Of course, you'll have to convert to Islam, but, hey, at least you won't have to worry about any Christian fundamentalists annoying your sensibilities now, will you?

Your whole position is based on the strawman that I hate all Christians. That's not the case. If Christians want to publicly proclaim their beliefs, then they shouldn't be surprised when someone tells them how absurd those beliefs are.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-11 02:13pm

Sorry Dunrundal But he can cause I said it

A Religion Founded in Genoicded and Hate should not survive and I for one will dance on the grave of Chrisitanity when it goes the way of the Romen God's

Though I might not be here, look at the world in sixty years and see how much power that religion holds.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2002-08-11 02:17pm

Durandal wrote:You're acting like evangelism only takes place on the personal level. It doesn't. Christian bigots are routinely looking for new ways to get their beliefs endorsed by the government by illegalizing prostitution, gambling, and in the case of Texas, vibrators.

It's getting worse. Now they've passed some new ordnance to curtail the amount of touching that occurs in Las Vegas strip clubs. Dammit! I love lapdances! Oh well, at least my soul is being saved...

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-08-11 03:30pm

Well considering that Jusus was nothing more than a charismatic con artist/nut job...No!

Mainly because he wil not ever come back because he is dead.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-08-11 04:53pm

religion based on genoicide and hate? plz explain.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-11 05:26pm

Sure Talen

Heres the take.
Take one race of people tell them they are better than everyone else and there was a promised land for them.

Now move this race from its present local to the new one which esictaly the same as the other(*Read Desert Hell Hole if you go more than five miles from the Ocean/River) and find that none suprizingly there are other people already living here

Now tell said Race its ok to kill every man, women and child in your "Promised Land" because its ok, And the one's you don't kill you can take as slaves...

As for the Hate there are several specific examples of people you should *Hate(And kill). First off people who are not of your Religion if they try and convert you, Second Homosexcuals, Third Con-Artists, Crazy people or Pagens are also to be killed

Or to put it another way as I saw in a political Cartoon once roughly around 91

Love you Brother(in the line under looking scribled in)
Just as long as he's
A Christian
Not Gay
Not a Pagen
Does not Try and Convert You
Does not happen to live in a City I've Promised you

Along with that I find what Hitler did in Germany disturbing Ironic, For there you had a Goverment conviced that it was made up of a race of supiror men who where better than anything else and it was thier right to rule the world and remove the un-worthy from the land, And they killing a race of people conviced of much the same thing.

Resident Commie · Post by **Resident Commie** » 2002-08-11 05:32pm

That's right, just as 2000 years ago only a handful of people will hear about it and less will actually care. The thing is at least back in those days the vast majority of people took any form of religion seriously, but now with the growth of science and atheism, anyone claming to be the Son of God would be ignored and condemned 2x as fast as Jesus. The only other successful course of action contrary to the book of Revelation would be that Jesus would try the same thing. By preaching to those who are poor and those who have lost faith.

But again here in lies the problem. If he followed the same course of action 2000 ago and was martyred and resurrected. His teachings would again become distorted by man and result in new atrocities and crimes by a fundamentalist resurgence. Therefore a Apocalypse must occur a new Great Flood to wipe clean the sins of past men and make clear a new civilization more attune and receptive to God's teachings.

That's my take on the second coming. (if it really were happened)

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-08-11 06:21pm

Commie, you hit the nail right on the head. The only reason that Jesus was as successful as he was was because people were gullible and ignorant.

Think about it. Since then we've had lots of people running around claiming to be the Messiah, but they've all been ignored because they're obviously mentally deranged. They ask their followers a lot of the same things that Jesus asked for, sacrifice as martyrs, total devotion, spreading the word and all that.

Jesus performed a few parlor tricks that people probably heard about through second-hand sources. The entire New Testament is akin to a giant game of Telephone. What we see in the book is either a gross exaggeration of what really happened, or it's simply fabricated loosely from different accounts of events from second-hand sources. Thus, we have "He fuckin' walked on the water, Dude! I swear." and "No man, Lazarus was dead for three fuckin' days and Jesus raised him! Seriously Dude, write this shit down." et cetera.

Take the water into wine story, for example. Jewish wedding festivals tended to go on for days. People go so sloppily drunk that they ran out of wine, and Jesus knew this. The clay jars that stored the wine probably still smelled like wine, even after they were empty. So, Jesus poured some water in them, shook them around and let the wine reside mix with the water to give the water a faint wine taste, does some mystical hand motions, and presto! All he has to do is convince a bunch of drunks who can't feel their taste buds anymore that it's wine, and he goes down in history as the savior of the party. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus walked around with a scantily-clad 19 year-old as his "assistant."

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2002-08-11 08:28pm

Durandal wrote:Commie, you hit the nail right on the head. The only reason that Jesus was as successful as he was was because people were gullible and ignorant.

Think about it. Since then we've had lots of people running around claiming to be the Messiah, but they've all been ignored because they're obviously mentally deranged. They ask their followers a lot of the same things that Jesus asked for, sacrifice as martyrs, total devotion, spreading the word and all that.

Jesus performed a few parlor tricks that people probably heard about through second-hand sources. The entire New Testament is akin to a giant game of Telephone. What we see in the book is either a gross exaggeration of what really happened, or it's simply fabricated loosely from different accounts of events from second-hand sources. Thus, we have "He fuckin' walked on the water, Dude! I swear." and "No man, Lazarus was dead for three fuckin' days and Jesus raised him! Seriously Dude, write this shit down." et cetera.

Take the water into wine story, for example. Jewish wedding festivals tended to go on for days. People go so sloppily drunk that they ran out of wine, and Jesus knew this. The clay jars that stored the wine probably still smelled like wine, even after they were empty. So, Jesus poured some water in them, shook them around and let the wine reside mix with the water to give the water a faint wine taste, does some mystical hand motions, and presto! All he has to do is convince a bunch of drunks who can't feel their taste buds anymore that it's wine, and he goes down in history as the savior of the party. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus walked around with a scantily-clad 19 year-old as his "assistant."

Dammit, that was beautiful.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-08-11 10:21pm

On a more serious note than my last post...

Commie, you hit the nail right on the head. The only reason that Jesus was as successful as he was was because people were gullible and ignorant.

Think about it. Since then we've had lots of people running around claiming to be the Messiah, but they've all been ignored because they're obviously mentally deranged. They ask their followers a lot of the same things that Jesus asked for, sacrifice as martyrs, total devotion, spreading the word and all that.

Jesus performed a few parlor tricks that people probably heard about through second-hand sources. The entire New Testament is akin to a giant game of Telephone. What we see in the book is either a gross exaggeration of what really happened, or it's simply fabricated loosely from different accounts of events from second-hand sources. Thus, we have "He fuckin' walked on the water, Dude! I swear. " and "No man, Lazarus was dead for three fuckin' days and Jesus raised him! Seriously Dude, write this shit down." et cetera.

Take the water into wine story, for example. Jewish wedding festivals tended to go on for days. People go so sloppily drunk that they ran out of wine, and Jesus knew this. The clay jars that stored the wine probably still smelled like wine, even after they were empty. So, Jesus poured some water in them, shook them around and let the wine reside mix with the water to give the water a faint wine taste, does some mystical hand motions, and presto! All he has to do is convince a bunch of drunks who can't feel their taste buds anymore that it's wine, and he goes down in history as the savior of the party. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus walked around with a scantily-clad 19 year-old as his "assistant."

In regards to Lazarus. People back then where buried alive all the time, hell some people put t into thier wills to be buried with a knife or gun so they could kill themselves should they wake up in a casket.

In regards to jesu walking on water, well there is this little thing called a sandbar, jesus was walking on one and when (paul I think) tries to walk on water he found a sink hole in the sandbar

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-08-12 03:25am

Durandal wrote:Commie, you hit the nail right on the head. The only reason that Jesus was as successful as he was was because people were gullible and ignorant.

Think about it. Since then we've had lots of people running around claiming to be the Messiah, but they've all been ignored because they're obviously mentally deranged. They ask their followers a lot of the same things that Jesus asked for, sacrifice as martyrs, total devotion, spreading the word and all that.

Jesus performed a few parlor tricks that people probably heard about through second-hand sources. The entire New Testament is akin to a giant game of Telephone. What we see in the book is either a gross exaggeration of what really happened, or it's simply fabricated loosely from different accounts of events from second-hand sources. Thus, we have "He fuckin' walked on the water, Dude! I swear." and "No man, Lazarus was dead for three fuckin' days and Jesus raised him! Seriously Dude, write this shit down." et cetera.

Take the water into wine story, for example. Jewish wedding festivals tended to go on for days. People go so sloppily drunk that they ran out of wine, and Jesus knew this. The clay jars that stored the wine probably still smelled like wine, even after they were empty. So, Jesus poured some water in them, shook them around and let the wine reside mix with the water to give the water a faint wine taste, does some mystical hand motions, and presto! All he has to do is convince a bunch of drunks who can't feel their taste buds anymore that it's wine, and he goes down in history as the savior of the party. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus walked around with a scantily-clad 19 year-old as his "assistant."

You reminded me of an episode of "King of the Hill" in which Bobby did a magic act as The Amazing Jesus. He did a trick where he turned water into wine and then his parents yanked him off of the stage.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2002-08-12 05:08am

[i]In other words, there's no sense preaching to a bunch of closed-mided atheists because they aren't ready to welcome the Force into their hearts. Doesn't mean a good Jedi shouldn't try, it just means that their time would be better spent on someone who is more open-minded.

Also, you, as a non-believer with no interest in hearing the Word of Skywalker could help your cause a lot by not being quite so combative. Instead of launching into an angry diatribe every time a Jedi asks if you know Skywalker, just shake your head and walk on by, or tell them politely, "I'm sorry, but I have no desire to learn about your beliefs." A combative response is going to set off alarms in the mind of a "fundamentalist" and cause him/her to think, "Boy, that guy really really needs to hear about Skywalker!"[/i]

Makes about as much sense, doesn't it?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-08-12 05:39am

Mr Bean wrote:Sure Talen

Heres the take.
Take one race of people tell them they are better than everyone else and there was a promised land for them.

Now move this race from its present local to the new one which esictaly the same as the other(*Read Desert Hell Hole if you go more than five miles from the Ocean/River) and find that none suprizingly there are other people already living here

Now tell said Race its ok to kill every man, women and child in your "Promised Land" because its ok, And the one's you don't kill you can take as slaves...

As for the Hate there are several specific examples of people you should *Hate(And kill). First off people who are not of your Religion if they try and convert you, Second Homosexcuals, Third Con-Artists, Crazy people or Pagens are also to be killed

Or to put it another way as I saw in a political Cartoon once roughly around 91

Love you Brother(in the line under looking scribled in)
Just as long as he's
A Christian
Not Gay
Not a Pagen
Does not Try and Convert You
Does not happen to live in a City I've Promised you

Along with that I find what Hitler did in Germany disturbing Ironic, For there you had a Goverment conviced that it was made up of a race of supiror men who where better than anything else and it was thier right to rule the world and remove the un-worthy from the land, And they killing a race of people conviced of much the same thing.

you know, I have yet to see a point where jesus says homosexulaity, hedonism, witchcraft, or similar is a crime punishable by stoning. I seem to remember his main rules being, love god with all your soul, heart and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.

going out and killing people bwecause their different is not quite what Christianity entails.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-08-12 08:00am

Hah HAHA, ROTFLMAO

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-12 08:25am

you know, I have yet to see a point where jesus says homosexulaity, hedonism, witchcraft, or similar is a crime punishable by stoning. I seem to remember his main rules being, love god with all your soul, heart and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Read your old Testmate Fellow

Is it part of the Bible?
Yes?
Is the Bible Part of your Religion?
Yes?
There you go

Besides That was God saying that not Jesus, but then agian if you Belive in the whole Trinity thing then yes Jesus did say that

Exdous Through Isaiah contains the nice stuff your looking for

Darth Cirrocu · Post by **Darth Cirrocu** » 2002-08-12 09:19am

Durandal wrote:
Wow. Considering all the deep hatred I've seen on this board from atheists towards Christians, I'm going to take that final sentence with a couple truckloads of salt.

Give one example of anyone on this board saying that all Christians are evil.

Nobody's said that we're all evil, it's just that statements like yours a few lines down along the lines of "[engage in intercourse] off" are the norm and not the exception.

Also, the whole "Let's invade the Creationist boards!" and "What's the most ridiculous thing you've heard from a religious nut?" threads imply a bias held by some people.

Durandal wrote:There's a big difference between criticizing the belief system (Christianity) and the people who follow it (Christians), because every person is different. Of course, fundamentalist Christian mindsets dictate that you judge a person based on his beliefs, but as I said before, atheists are not fundamentalist Christians. Don't project your ignorance and intolerance on to us.

I'm still not clear on where a person being an atheist is at all congruent with being a fundamentalist Christian. Obviously an atheist doesn't hold the same beliefs that I do. Duh.

Durandal wrote:No, fundamentalist Christians can simply fuck off.

Ah, there's the tolerance. I was wondering where it had been misplaced.

Durandal wrote:The tenets of mainstream Christianity (Heaven, Hell, Judgment Day) are frightening and simply absurd, but that doesn't mean that I hate everyone who believes in them.

<shrug> Fair enough. Although can you really be frightened by something in which you don't believe? If Judgement Day is simply a "myth" to you, then why does it frighten you?

Durandal wrote:Christians have a lot of balls complaining about atheists not tolerating them. Atheists aren't trying to get "Gods don't exist" put in to the Pledge of Allegiance. Atheists aren't trying to make the government endorse their beliefs. You can proselytize on the street all you want, but the government is not allowed to endorse yours or anyone else's religious beliefs.

1. Vote for the candidate who you feel best represents your views.
2. Move.
3. (if 1 and 2 don't work) Cope.

If the situation were reversed, would you not tell me the exact same thing?

Durandal wrote:I guess that means I'm "close-minded" because I don't think that Miss Cleo has genuine psychic powers, then, right? Your definition of "open-minded" is akin to simply being gullible and buying whatever moronic claims that come your way.

You're right. I would be gullible and buying whatever mornonic claim came my way if I were to abandon my beliefs and convert to...ummm...Skywalkerism.

Durandal wrote:As for Christ's teachings, they are precisely what's wrong with Christianity. Christ commanded his followers to take a personal matter (religion) and publicize it. Why? Because if you're not a believer, you're going to burn in Hell. This has been the motivation for a litany of Christian atrocities over the years. They tortured Jews to get them to convert, and if they died during the process, who cares? They were going to Hell, anyway. That's what makes Christianity dangerous. Sure, most religions believe that they're the right one, but Christianity and its derivatives are the only ones whose members try to gain governmental endorsement for their beliefs and convert everyone else to their religion.

Heh. I had to go back and check to make sure that my statement about Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism made it in my post. Guess you missed that, eh? Have you missed the statements form Osama & Gang about killing all the infidels?

Yes, atrocities have been committed in the name of Christ. Atrocities have also been committed in the name of Allah, Buddha, "animal rights," "a clean environment," and other things. Are you really saying that because a few bad people have done horrible things in God's name that all people who follow His teachings are guilty or capable of such atrocities and are only a Bible passage away from mowing down the unbelievers?

I know you're not, but sometimes you're coming across that way.

Durandal wrote:Furthermore, that passage makes it clear that everyone not open to Christ's message is inferior pondscum. That's the very essence of bigotry. Thank you for making me aware of this quote. It only strengthens my case.

What was your case again? That fundamentalist Christians are wacko nutjobs? That religion has no place in public life? That because a few people feel "excluded" whenever the Pledge of Allegiance is recited that a whole lot of heritage should be flushed down the toilet?

Durandal wrote:It's a sick, self-serving system, in my opinion. The preachers can't find a meaning for their own lives, so they have to ascribe themselves the task of converting everyone else so that they can save everyone's souls. Completely circular.

The "preachers" (and I assume you mean anyone who seeks to spread the Word of God) have found meaning in their lives. They have found meaning for their lives through their belief in Jesus Christ. They have found joy in that "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

The "preachers" have found such a profound joy from this that they seek only to share their happiness with the rest of the world.

Wait! Your problem is that people are happy!

Durandal wrote:Who says that that's not precisely what I do? Do you really think I have the time or inclination to get into arguments when I'm walking down the street? Discussion boards are a different matter. When someone presents the Second Coming as if it's actual fact, I simply tell them that I think it's a fairy tale, and then I outline my reasons. People like you have the Christian knee-jerk reaction that anyone who criticizes their beliefs is automatically being intolerant, no matter how valid those criticisms may be.

That may be because such criticisms are usually accompanied by statements like, "It's a [engaging in intercourse] fairy tale!!!" No, not an exact quote from you, but that's the general tone.

Durandal wrote:You're acting like evangelism only takes place on the personal level. It doesn't. Christian bigots are routinely looking for new ways to get their beliefs endorsed by the government by illegalizing prostitution, gambling, and in the case of Texas, vibrators.

So is your problem with Christians or America's systems of laws and governing? People are simply working the system towards their own ends. Mr. Nandow tried the exact same thing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Durandal wrote:Strawman. I never said it was a crime to hold those beliefs. That's part of everyone's freedom of worship. However, Christian fundamentalist beliefs are bigoted nonsense that can lead to enormous evil, and those are the grounds that I attack it on.

Oh, very good. Because a belief system has the potential of leading to evil, it should be denounced. Where would you begin your attacks and where would they end? Which beliefs?

Durandal wrote:You're acting like someone can't be stupid, ignorant or simply rude without violating someone else's rights. Christian fundamentalists who preach hate against atheists aren't violating anyone's rights, but they are being exceptionally stupid, ignorant and bigoted with their use of free speech.
......
Your whole position is based on the strawman that I hate all Christians. That's not the case. If Christians want to publicly proclaim their beliefs, then they shouldn't be surprised when someone tells them how absurd those beliefs are.

So you're against stupid people? Well, so am I! See, we agree on something!

Seek to change that and you will have to go through me. And I will defend that right to my last dying breath.

Durandal wrote:Oh, please. Spare me this "cold, dead hands" bullshit, Mr. Heston.

You doubt my sincerity? Okay. Just realize that I would give my life to defend your freedom as well.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-08-13 12:27am

Nobody's said that we're all evil , it's just that statements like yours a few lines down along the lines of "[engage in intercourse] off" are the norm and not the exception.

That's simply being rude. It doesn't equate to hatred or intolerance. Perhaps you should learn the distinction.

Also, the whole "Let's invade the Creationist boards!" and "What's the most ridiculous thing you've heard from a religious nut?" threads imply a bias held by some people.

Of course there's a bias. Creationism is stupid, and many people on this board, including myself, would like to see it eradicated because it's a mockery of science and a simple ploy to push religion into public schools.

I'm still not clear on where a person being an atheist is at all congruent with being a fundamentalist Christian. Obviously an atheist doesn't hold the same beliefs that I do. Duh.

Then you're not listening to what I'm saying. Fundamentalist Christians judge people by their beliefs, rather than their actions. You are accusing atheists of doing the same thing, in effect, pushing fundamentalist Christian practices on to us, when there is absolutely no reason to do so. No one on this board, to my knowledge, has ever stated that being Christian equates to being evil.

Ah, there's the tolerance. I was wondering where it had been misplaced.

Telling someone to fuck off is not intolerance. It's simply a harsh way of saying that you disagree with them. If I didn't tolerate fundamentalist Christians, I'd be campaigning for them to be imprisoned, censored, deported or have my own beliefs endorsed by the government. Much like they do.

<shrug> Fair enough. Although can you really be frightened by something in which you don't believe? If Judgement Day is simply a "myth" to you, then why does it frighten you?

Because that belief itself is frightening. Are only real things frightening to you? You've never gotten scared at a good horror film?

Aren't you the least bit disconcerted that some Muslims actually believe a suicide bombing earns them a spot in Paradise? Don't you worry that that belief could lead to needless death and violence? I am. I feel similarly about Christian beliefs of Heaven, Hell, Judgment Day, et cetera, because those beliefs can be and have been used to justify unspeakable atrocities.

1. Vote for the candidate who you feel best represents your views.

There's no such thing. An atheist candidate would never win.

2. Move.

Typical religiously bigoted response. This country isn't giving me all the freedoms that it has promised me, so I should move and not complain about it? Ever think that there may be something wrong with the government?

3. (if 1 and 2 don't work) Cope.

See above.

If the situation were reversed, would you not tell me the exact same thing?

Absolutely not. You are, again, projecting your own bigotry on to me. You think it's OK to tell atheists to simply accept the fact that their rights are being impugned, and then you turn around and justify it by saying that we'd say the same thing were we in your position. The fact is that what we would do is irrelevant. Our rights are being violated by the government's endorsement of religion over nonreligion (not to mention monotheism over polytheism), and that's not allowed. Gee, I wonder what would have happened if that attitude prevailed when Martin Luther King, Jr. was campaigning for basic civil rights.

Unlike you, I actually, truly believe in the concept of inalienable rights. The fact that you find atheists' rights to be something to be tossed out the window runs contrary to your "cold, dead hands" rant. You're a hypocrite, and you're not defending the Constitution. Only your perverted version of it.

You're right. I would be gullible and buying whatever mornonic claim came my way if I were to abandon my beliefs and convert to...ummm...Skywalkerism.

Yes, and people are similarly gullible to buy the fable of Christianity. It makes just as little sense as Christianity does.

Heh. I had to go back and check to make sure that my statement about Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism made it in my post. Guess you missed that, eh? Have you missed the statements form Osama & Gang about killing all the infidels?

What does that have to do with anything? Those beliefs are dangerous, and they've caused far more harm than good.

Yes, atrocities have been committed in the name of Christ. Atrocities have also been committed in the name of Allah, Buddha, "animal rights," "a clean environment," and other things. Are you really saying that because a few bad people have done horrible things in God's name that all people who follow His teachings are guilty or capable of such atrocities and are only a Bible passage away from mowing down the unbelievers?

No, I simply say that the teachings are dangerous because they encourage such actions. In the Bible, God tells people to kill those who don't agree with them, rape whomever they wish from the unbelievers and take slaves from other countries. You simply don't get the point. I'm criticizing the teachings. Those who follow them are unique individuals, and they may or may not accept certain parts of those teachings. That does not, however, change the fact that Jerry Falwell's beliefs are fully supported by Scripture.

I know you're not, but sometimes you're coming across that way.

Only when you succumb to Christian knee-jerk reactions. I don't pride myself as being diplomatic unless I'm talking to a pretty girl. If people would actually read what I write instead of simply assuming that I hate all Christians, then maybe something productive could occur.

What was your case again? That fundamentalist Christians are wacko nutjobs? That religion has no place in public life? That because a few people feel "excluded" whenever the Pledge of Allegiance is recited that a whole lot of heritage should be flushed down the toilet?

Religion has no place in the government. "Under God" in the Pledge is akin to waving a Confederate flag over a state house. It symbolizes an era in which atheists were imprisoned by the government and labeled as communists for no reason other than their beliefs. It was added in 1954 through the efforts of a Christian organization known as the Knights of Columbus. They sought to have their beliefs officially endorsed by a government which is supposed to be religiously neutral, and that makes them and anyone who agrees with them religious bigots. The establishment clause exists to guarantee that the government remain completely neutral on religion, in other words, not commenting on it.

Furthermore, what heritage? The founding fathers weren't incredibly fond of Christianity, and Ben Franklin in particular had a disdain for it. Why do you think they left Europe? If they wanted a Christian nation, they'd have stayed.

The "preachers" (and I assume you mean anyone who seeks to spread the Word of God) have found meaning in their lives. They have found meaning for their lives through their belief in Jesus Christ. They have found joy in that "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

In other words, they can't find stability without devoting their lives to pointless conversion missions based in religious bigotry and self-serving beliefs. Apparently, finding friendship and comfort in their fellow man isn't good enough. Jesus has to be involved in everything. It's annoying.

The "preachers" have found such a profound joy from this that they seek only to share their happiness with the rest of the world.

Only because they think that the rest of the world will suffer for eternity if they don't. Preachers give themselves an important mission: save everyone's eternal soul. They aren't content unless they're shoving their beliefs down others' throats through governmental channels. I don't buy this "spread the joy" bullshit. Their motives are fueled by intolerance, as much as they delude themselves into thinking the opposite.

Wait! Your problem is that people are happy!

I have no problem with people being happy, so long as they hurt no one else. Preachers aren't violating anyone's rights if they stand on a soap box and yammer on loudly about Christ the Savior or whatever, but they are doing so when they put "under God" in the nation's Pledge of Allegiance. Granted, I think that it's sad and pathetic that preachers can't find meaning to their lives by themselves so they have to follow the directives of some invisible father figure, but no more so than a drug addict who has to shoot up in order to be happy. What he does to himself is his own business of mine.

That may be because such criticisms are usually accompanied by statements like, "It's a [engaging in intercourse] fairy tale!!!" No, not an exact quote from you, but that's the general tone.

I'm being rude. Excuse me while I continue to be. Christianity left a bitter taste in my mouth. But Christianity is a giant fairy tale. It promises everything humans could ever want. A place in Paradise, an eternity of suffering for the wicked and delusions of grandeur by being on the "righteous" side. Sounds like something a con artist may have dreamed up to prey on ignorant, gullible people. The difference is that, today, the scam is taught from birth, so people develop a blindspot to it. It's the most successful scam in human history. The Church takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they enjoy gross amounts of influence in world governmental affairs, an area in which it should be completely silent.

So is your problem with Christians or America's systems of laws and governing?

Both. Many of America's laws are enacted because Christians want them to be, not because they violate others' rights or hurt anyone. They are there to appease Christians. That's against the Constitution.

People are simply working the system towards their own ends. Mr. Nandow tried the exact same thing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Newdow was simply trying to get the government to follow its own rules, which is apparently too much to ask.

Oh, very good. Because a belief system has the potential of leading to evil, it should be denounced. Where would you begin your attacks and where would they end? Which beliefs?

It's not that the beliefs can simply potentially lead to evil. It's that they encourage it. Cars can be used for evil, but salesman don't promote it. I'm not going to bother outlining the litany of atrocities inflicted on this world by organized religion and so-called "revelation," but the list is much longer than those brought about by secular humanism or atheist beliefs (which have a combined total of zero atrocities).

So you're against stupid people? Well, so am I! See, we agree on something!

Stupid people have the same rights to be heard as everyone else. I simply don't like them.

You doubt my sincerity?

Yes. You hold the belief that a minority's rights are subject to dismissal if the majority consents to it. You fight for nothing even resembling the US Constitution.

Okay. Just realize that I would give my life to defend your freedom as well.

I've got a better idea. How about you defend my rights by actually recognizing that they exist, first? Then, maybe, we can talk about dying for them. I have the right to be free from governmental endorsement of religious ideas that I don't agree with. That right is being violated, and you don't give a shit. Don't even dare to tell me that you respect my rights or are willing to die for them when you don't even acknowledge them. Just be honest and tell me that you don't think my rights matter because I'm part of the most oppressed minority in existence.

You tell me to "cope" or "move." That's akin to telling black people to deal with persecution and bigotry because the majority thinks it's OK.

It's very easy to turn a blind eye to bigotry against a minority when you're part of the majority (white, or male, or Christians, or any combination thereof). Put yourself in my shoes. Would you appreciate it if the Pledge read "under no gods, because gods don't exist"?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-08-13 01:18am

Mr Bean wrote:
you know, I have yet to see a point where jesus says homosexulaity, hedonism, witchcraft, or similar is a crime punishable by stoning. I seem to remember his main rules being, love god with all your soul, heart and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Read your old Testmate Fellow

Is it part of the Bible?
Yes?
Is the Bible Part of your Religion?
Yes?
There you go

Besides That was God saying that not Jesus, but then agian if you Belive in the whole Trinity thing then yes Jesus did say that
Exdous Through Isaiah contains the nice stuff your looking for

tricky. but then, if a philosophy is particularly nasty, some people take it on themselves to remove it. u.s. and nazism, maybe. japanese perverted bushido in the 40s. one could say the isrealites were doing similar - I remember some of the idols they were casting down had babies sacrificed to them, and who wants that?

OneWay to Live · Post by **OneWay to Live** » 2002-08-13 02:36am

Look as Talen said you cannot guess the day or time of his coming. So By Guessing that basically is saying it won't happen. Like if someone were to say that Oct12 2034 was the day of the second coming at 12:00 noon they would be Wrong. Look I am a beliver however I have a friend who is Wica and several who are atheist and some who are Jews. So I have beliefs I share them if my friends are offended they tell me so.

Look there were over 100 prophseies about the Messiah. The odds of someone filling even twenty are Enourmous. (don't have stat in front of me I'll get back to you on that.)

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-08-13 02:53am

As the Resident "Public" Jew here all I have to say is this.

Oi, Fucking Vey!

People, this is not the end of the fucking world (ok, if those Asteriod folks are right it might be in another 19 years but that's beside the point), will the TWO polorized factions here PLEASE learn a little TOLERANCE.

[/u][/i][/b]

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-13 08:12am

there were over 100 prophseies about the Messiah. The odds of someone filling even twenty are Enourmous

Yes but there was a DEFINTE Five list of things you know the Messiah will do
Sure they might said he's supposed to cut all the grass from Mount Canina in a single day no better yet hour with nothing but a dull butter knife, no better yet a chicken

But there was a repeated accepted list of five things the Messiah was going to do
The fact where still all here is one of the big problems

Not to mention Isreal never became its own state and there is still fighting going on thier all of which was put in nice bolded words and repeated that the coming of the Messiah would put an end to all of that.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-08-13 02:49pm

Okay. Just realize that I would give my life to defend your freedom as well.

I repeat Durandals statement. you cant die for someones rights unless you aknowledge that they exist.

I am a member of the two most oppressed minorities in the world, Athiests and Iam also a homosexual as you probably know already. Not only can I not hold public office in this country but depending on where I go I will be imprisoned, discriminated against, stoned to death, hanged or just killed by gay bashers. Most of the things I mentioned aply to both athists and gays, but if you want a good picture of what happens to me and where...
http://www.worldpolicy.org/americas/sex ... s-gay.html

If you have ever voted against an anti-discrimination bill or have ever insulted anyone because they where gay(or stood by while someone else did it) you have kicked my rights in the balls, so dont say you would die for them.

Note: If you have voted for antidiscrimination laws or defended gays please diregard that statement.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

The Second Coming of Christ

If It happens no one will know.